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Thank you for making our point for us. Not one person within this discussion said that girls lax wasn't a physical game, or that we are upset over the bumps and bruises of the game, for heaven sake I know they happen my daughter is a goalie. Our argument was and still is the "thug" mentality that runs rampantly unchecked in the Y.J. By stating there were so many fouls, though trying to have a "GOT YA" moment, only substantiates our argument. at the college level the refs are calling more fouls on more experienced players to keep control of the game, but I am sure most parents will agree in the youth and high school ranks the refs are not as good, and some teams take advantage of that. I am sure that when MD. teams play each other or N.Y. teams play each other there is a little more bumping and checking, that is to be expected. What we are talking about is the hard checks under the guise of "going hard for a ground ball", or the swings about the head, or the stick butts to the body as they run down the field, or the stick checks to the wrist. If your kid is checking a stick so hard that it can break a bone then she doesn't know how to check correctly and thats either your, or your coaches fault.

Coaches and parents screaming "take her out." And this has happened with plenty of teams? Sorry but I'm calling BS on you mom. "I've told you a million times to stop exaggerating!"

Sorry, but I think you missed the point. The girls making these fouls did not just start playing that way, they did so in high school and club. The point is it is not just a YJ trait but rough occurs everywhere. My daughter has played for two years within the YJ program at the Blie level and not a single aspect of their mentality has been taught to intimidate or hurt another player. You cannot beat the YJ so now you have to make about something else to diminish and demean their accomplishments. So sad...

For 2018 YJ Blue/Rose parents: I assume no but is it worth sending your daughter to this new fl$ Premier Girls Showcase on May 31st? My daughter is from a top team outside of LI and just got an invite. She recently went to Elite 120 which we thought was great, but we have never heard of this event. Any thoughts appreciated.

Yes, and the same "no calls" are transferable to the other players at the younger ages, they just did not start playing that way. I simply tried to present a fact based view with actual data vs. The obviously emotional topic for you. I understand you observe some of this behavior and certainly will not say you are wrong or it does not happen from YJ players. Just stating that one, it happens everywhere and not just at YJ, two, not on the team I watch play and three it is not taught nor an institutionally accepted mentality. When does the institutional indoctrination process begin, have not seen it yet and going on year three?

Thank you for making our point for us. Not one person within this discussion said that girls lax wasn't a physical game, or that we are upset over the bumps and bruises of the game, for heaven sake I know they happen my daughter is a goalie. Our argument was and still is the "thug" mentality that runs rampantly unchecked in the Y.J. By stating there were so many fouls, though trying to have a "GOT YA" moment, only substantiates our argument. at the college level the refs are calling more fouls on more experienced players to keep control of the game, but I am sure most parents will agree in the youth and high school ranks the refs are not as good, and some teams take advantage of that. I am sure that when MD. teams play each other or N.Y. teams play each other there is a little more bumping and checking, that is to be expected. What we are talking about is the hard checks under the guise of "going hard for a ground ball", or the swings about the head, or the stick butts to the body as they run down the field, or the stick checks to the wrist. If your kid is checking a stick so hard that it can break a bone then she doesn't know how to check correctly and thats either your, or your coaches fault.

Here is an excerpt from Inside Lacrosse when Gary Gait was asked why his team had so many fouls and Yellow Cards.

Syracuse's pressure defense and aggressive style occasionally gets the Orange in trouble. Syracuse's 48 yellow cards were fourth most in Division I. Gait thought some of his defenders were robbed of All-American honors. "We sure do play aggressive," he said. "I know we certainly don't play dangerously. It's kind of a misleading stat. It's just the fact that we're out and we're going for the stick. There's really no other way to get the ball back."

I have had 2 daughters go through the YJ system. While each coach is different, the one constant (especially the Blue teams) is that YJ's usually has the most athletic players. When you have an athletic advantage, a good coach will try to take advantage of that, so many of the teams play the same style of high pressure defense as Syracuse does. It is very effective but it requires much more stick checking because the idea is to get the ball back unlike a heels on the 8 meter team who want to pack it in so you don't have space to take advantage of their match ups. The problem is that stick checking is as much as a skill as anything else, so the younger they are the more mishaps you will see. As the teams get older they get better at doubling the ball and controlling their sticks and have a clean take away. You can call it Thug ball or whatever you want to, but Those ARE the kids that are the most sought after by the colleges. Like any other sport women's lacrosse is all about getting a match up advantage and keeping possession of the ball. If you can cause turnovers and cover your girl you are gold!

Here is an excerpt from Inside Lacrosse when Gary Gait was asked why his team had so many fouls and Yellow Cards.

Syracuse's pressure defense and aggressive style occasionally gets the Orange in trouble. Syracuse's 48 yellow cards were fourth most in Division I. Gait thought some of his defenders were robbed of All-American honors. "We sure do play aggressive," he said. "I know we certainly don't play dangerously. It's kind of a misleading stat. It's just the fact that we're out and we're going for the stick. There's really no other way to get the ball back."

I have had 2 daughters go through the YJ system. While each coach is different, the one constant (especially the Blue teams) is that YJ's usually has the most athletic players. When you have an athletic advantage, a good coach will try to take advantage of that, so many of the teams play the same style of high pressure defense as Syracuse does. It is very effective but it requires much more stick checking because the idea is to get the ball back unlike a heels on the 8 meter team who want to pack it in so you don't have space to take advantage of their match ups. The problem is that stick checking is as much as a skill as anything else, so the younger they are the more mishaps you will see. As the teams get older they get better at doubling the ball and controlling their sticks and have a clean take away. You can call it Thug ball or whatever you want to, but Those ARE the kids that are the most sought after by the colleges. Like any other sport women's lacrosse is all about getting a match up advantage and keeping possession of the ball. If you can cause turnovers and cover your girl you are gold!

Here is an excerpt from Inside Lacrosse when Gary Gait was asked why his team had so many fouls and Yellow Cards.

Syracuse's pressure defense and aggressive style occasionally gets the Orange in trouble. Syracuse's 48 yellow cards were fourth most in Division I. Gait thought some of his defenders were robbed of All-American honors. "We sure do play aggressive," he said. "I know we certainly don't play dangerously. It's kind of a misleading stat. It's just the fact that we're out and we're going for the stick. There's really no other way to get the ball back."

I have had 2 daughters go through the YJ system. While each coach is different, the one constant (especially the Blue teams) is that YJ's usually has the most athletic players. When you have an athletic advantage, a good coach will try to take advantage of that, so many of the teams play the same style of high pressure defense as Syracuse does. It is very effective but it requires much more stick checking because the idea is to get the ball back unlike a heels on the 8 meter team who want to pack it in so you don't have space to take advantage of their match ups. The problem is that stick checking is as much as a skill as anything else, so the younger they are the more mishaps you will see. As the teams get older they get better at doubling the ball and controlling their sticks and have a clean take away. You can call it Thug ball or whatever you want to, but Those ARE the kids that are the most sought after by the colleges. Like any other sport women's lacrosse is all about getting a match up advantage and keeping possession of the ball. If you can cause turnovers and cover your girl you are gold!

it sounds to me like you and coach Gait are making excuses.quite frankly, it doesn't sound like the girls get any better at the aggressive stick checking. You also state that " those ARE the kids that are the most sought after by the colleges" but then state "unlike a heels on the 8 meter team who want to pack it in so you don't have space to take advantage of their match ups". Sounds like your kind of admitting that not all coaches are looking for that style of player. You're just justifying an egressive style. I don't know a coach at any level that wants a girl to take a card, put there team down a player, and chance a goal for a wild swing at someones head. By the way, how did it work out for "Cuse?

it sounds to me like you and coach Gait are making excuses.quite frankly, it doesn't sound like the girls get any better at the aggressive stick checking. You also state that " those ARE the kids that are the most sought after by the colleges" but then state "unlike a heels on the 8 meter team who want to pack it in so you don't have space to take advantage of their match ups". Sounds like your kind of admitting that not all coaches are looking for that style of player. You're just justifying an egressive style. I don't know a coach at any level that wants a girl to take a card, put there team down a player, and chance a goal for a wild swing at someones head. By the way, how did it work out for "Cuse?

And lost!!!! Thank you

No, we don't all confuse fast, aggressive play with dirty play. Dirty play is dirty, checks to the wrist, kicks (yes, seen it and from YJ) when the refs aren't looking. Don't try to say that is aggressive play, that is just dirty.

Maybe your daughters All-American coaches don't coach that way and lucky for you and kudos to them. But some coaches must because it permeates the team. You can recognize those players in school games because they're still playing that way.

This has become the most annoying exchange on this thread ever. Okay, great you both expressed your OPINIONS on the play of some YJ players. And yes, even the moderator is allowed to share his/her opinion on the matter. Endless paragraph after endless paragraph. Great. There is no winning the debate, some people very much like the style of play, some don't. Move on.

This has become the most annoying exchange on this thread ever. Okay, great you both expressed your OPINIONS on the play of some YJ players. And yes, even the moderator is allowed to share his/her opinion on the matter. Endless paragraph after endless paragraph. Great. There is no winning the debate, some people very much like the style of play, some don't. Move on.

IMHO, I really think this aggressive pushing into dirty play stems from coaching at the youth level. Most youth coaches, (i.e. PAL) at least on LI, are Dads who played lax in high school and/or college and have never watched a girls lacrosse game. They dont understand how the game should be or could be played. Instead they revert to tactics they know or were taught in boys lacrosse and try to apply them to the girls game. There is a certain respect to game, in terms of how the game should be played, if girls are taught at the younger age by women coaches.
If you talk to former players who now are coaches, the majority do not want to see helmets in the game thus there coaching techniques are going to emphasis the correct way to check and play defense.
I realize it is a generalization about Dad coaches but I definitely believe there is truth to the argument. I don't understand how you can coach a sport, especially at the youth level, without ever playing the game. Boys vs Girls lacrosse are completely different sports.

IMHO, I really think this aggressive pushing into dirty play stems from coaching at the youth level. Most youth coaches, (i.e. PAL) at least on LI, are Dads who played lax in high school and/or college and have never watched a girls lacrosse game. They dont understand how the game should be or could be played. Instead they revert to tactics they know or were taught in boys lacrosse and try to apply them to the girls game. There is a certain respect to game, in terms of how the game should be played, if girls are taught at the younger age by women coaches.
If you talk to former players who now are coaches, the majority do not want to see helmets in the game thus there coaching techniques are going to emphasis the correct way to check and play defense.
I realize it is a generalization about Dad coaches but I definitely believe there is truth to the argument. I don't understand how you can coach a sport, especially at the youth level, without ever playing the game. Boys vs Girls lacrosse are completely different sports.

Let's be honest, in the absence of the Maryland teams from the "National Championship" in Colorado, last year's results was not a true representation of who is/was the best U15 team in the nation last year. YJ teams are good, no question, arguably one of the best depending on the year and the athletes, but without playing the teams that have beaten them in other tournaments it was like they were given a pass, and not really tested. Its a shame that that Maryland teams opted out. Anyone know why? Hopefully the Maryland teams will return to the tourney this year to make it a truly competitive event, last year, it clearly was not.

This is the most honest and realistic analyses of this problem I have seen.I also believe that the 'Cuse/ Gary Gait situation is a high level example of this analysis. Though I do believe there are dad/men coaches that can coach girls/woman. Even Gait admitted that prior to coaching 'Cuse he knew very little about the woman game. 'Cause will always contend, but I believe unless Gait alters his approach to better fit the woman game he will never win a championship.

This is the most honest and realistic analyses of this problem I have seen.I also believe that the 'Cuse/ Gary Gait situation is a high level example of this analysis. Though I do believe there are dad/men coaches that can coach girls/woman. Even Gait admitted that prior to coaching 'Cuse he knew very little about the woman game. 'Cause will always contend, but I believe unless Gait alters his approach to better fit the woman game he will never win a championship.

This is the most honest and realistic analyses of this problem I have seen.I also believe that the 'Cuse/ Gary Gait situation is a high level example of this analysis. Though I do believe there are dad/men coaches that can coach girls/woman. Even Gait admitted that prior to coaching 'Cuse he knew very little about the woman game. 'Cause will always contend, but I believe unless Gait alters his approach to better fit the woman game he will never win a championship.

To be clear.
This "thug ball" stuff started several years back during National Draw when 2015 YJ blue played 2015 TG black and a broken bone was sustained by a TG player. One goal game with a couple minutes left. Some deemed the check "cheap". Then the same 2015 YJ blue team played a MD team and a MD player sustained a broken leg. Some deemed the check "cheap". Same tournament...second incident.
That is when a poster started calling the YJ style of play "thug ball".

This moderator believes the YJ kids are aggressive but not "thugs". They play within the rules as other clubs do. They are carded as other players are when they violate the rules. "Thug ball" is old, untrue and frankly not representative of how the kids play.
Let it go......

This is the most honest and realistic analyses of this problem I have seen.I also believe that the 'Cuse/ Gary Gait situation is a high level example of this analysis. Though I do believe there are dad/men coaches that can coach girls/woman. Even Gait admitted that prior to coaching 'Cuse he knew very little about the woman game. 'Cause will always contend, but I believe unless Gait alters his approach to better fit the woman game he will never win a championship.

Ask yourself why they would saddle their parents with the expense and inconvenience of a Colorado/Florida tourney that few if any college coaches even attend? Club lacrosse is for being seen and being recruited, that's it. Clubs like M&D, Skywalkers, Hero's TLC and Capital seem to do a very good job of that without the U15. If they want to play top competition with no college coaches watching, they simply schedule "Playdays" where a subset of the above mentioned clubs get together for a day of games. a 10-20 mile drive and a half a day is all they have to commit to play some of the best teams in the country. They've got all summer and fall to bang heads with the club elite at multiple, well attended, mid-atlantic tounaments. Would guess that's why.


As a YJ parent, do you honestly think the U15 is worth the time and money you commit? I'm sure the club likes the free (for them) publicity however.

You should write him a letter explaining that he should stop recruiting all those NY thugs if is ever to win a championship. If you people can't handle the physical play of summer ball, you should very seriously consider stepping away from the game before playing in college, it is physically brutal at the next level.

Skywalkers won the U-15 championship a few years ago so the MD elite have attended. I would go to support the growth of the game. Many of the other regions that cannot travel to MD, NJ, NY and MA from CA, TX, FL and other places on a regular basis use this event as a way to gain experience against the rest of the country and continue to grow the sport in their region. The somewhat underlying issue that others have voiced is several members of the grade based elite teams in MD could not play together since they are older and do not qualify as a complete team for this aged based event. This year the event is in Midlothian VA (just south of Richmond), a much easier trip from MD so show-up, support the game as something bigger than just how can I get my daughter recruited.

You guys don't get it. No one has a problem with aggressive plays. We have a problem with cheating and dirty thug lacrosse.

Really, you're helping them grow their sport...if that helps you get through the day. Were you in CO? Did you actually watch any of the games? This past year, YJ teams won their pool games by an average score of 19-2 (Steps 16-4 and Elevate 20-1). I'm sure humiliating the competition in these epic beat-downs is the US Lacrosse blueprint for helping "grow the sport". Why would anyone want to pay thousands of dollars and a week of their time for that?

YJ and Steps are legit top 5 2017 teams, elevate is borderline top 10. It's not like it's just one or two top clubs that don't show up. I watched M&D, Capital and Lady Roc all beat 2017 Blue this fall...not one of those showed and only one is from MD.

As for Richmond 2015, if any club decides to go to the U-15 and then skips either of the two IWLCA sponsored events held there this summer, their parents should revolt.

You guys don't get it. No one has a problem with aggressive plays. We have a problem with cheating and dirty thug lacrosse.

Really, you're helping them grow their sport...if that helps you get through the day. Were you in CO? Did you actually watch any of the games? This past year, YJ teams won their pool games by an average score of 19-2 (Steps 16-4 and Elevate 20-1). I'm sure humiliating the competition in these epic beat-downs is the US Lacrosse blueprint for helping "grow the sport". Why would anyone want to pay thousands of dollars and a week of their time for that?

YJ and Steps are legit top 5 2017 teams, elevate is borderline top 10. It's not like it's just one or two top clubs that don't show up. I watched M&D, Capital and Lady Roc all beat 2017 Blue this fall...not one of those showed and only one is from MD.

As for Richmond 2015, if any club decides to go to the U-15 and then skips either of the two IWLCA sponsored events held there this summer, their parents should revolt.

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