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Re: Girls 2015 Fall 2011/Spring 2012
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Point taken, CageSage. I hadn't thought of it in that perspective. There's still no denying the grumbling on the sidelines though,

True, though, that it would be great for LI Lax if there were local tournaments attended by the local clubs. Refresh my memory, what happened with the Elite tournament? Why was it not well attended?

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
I agree that YJ 2015 is a very good team. Having said that , the times they are a changing. Parents are losing faith in a rigid "win at all cost" program that disparages the players who can't produce. And by the way, How much money is there in running 3 or 4 teams per age group???? If it is really about the kids then why are parents secretly trying to get out of YJ without being blackballed by the YJ leadership?


How do you make this statement? Is there any validity to it. State some facts??

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For LI teams to play LI teams on Long Island just doesn't work. What is there to win, only lose. So one LI team loses to another LI tam, them all the parents want to take their daughters to the "winning program". They write it up in back of the cage saying our program is better than yours. Play a tournament in Maryland and there is nothing to lose. It's all about the money

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Re: Girls 2015 Fall 2011/Spring 2012
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Originally Posted by Powderfinger
True, though, that it would be great for LI Lax if there were local tournaments attended by the local clubs. Refresh my memory, what happened with the Elite tournament? Why was it not well attended?
The Elite Showcase was well attended on the coaching side (approximately 25 institutions represented) and the team count (approximately 75-80 teams) was below the total capacity by a slight amount. The Yellow Jackets teams accounted for about 25 of the total teams.

The Long Island teams (non-Yellow Jackets) that attended included these : Long Island Raiders, Long Island Express, Smithtown, Team 91, Huntington, Nor'Easter, Hauppauge, Premier, Farmingdale, and Long Island Pride. Even with these clubs, the number of attending teams were limited.

Our point is that teams like the Long Island Liberty and Top Guns to name two just chose not to attend. Our question is why would these franchises not attend this showcase opportunity? When BOTC made personal calls, we were told that the money was only helping the Yellow Jackets program, the attending coaches were not of interest, the tournament was "too expensive", and that the clubs had other plans.

The fact remains that the off-Island representation at our own home town recruiting event was stronger than the local support. For a full listing of the teams involved, access the following link : Long Island Elite Showcase Schedule (PDF Format)

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Re: Girls 2015 Fall 2011/Spring 2012
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I agree that YJ 2015 is a very good team. Having said that , the times they are a changing. Parents are losing faith in a rigid "win at all cost" program that disparages the players who can't produce. And by the way, How much money is there in running 3 or 4 teams per age group???? If it is really about the kids then why are parents secretly trying to get out of YJ without being blackballed by the YJ leadership?
How do you make this statement? Is there any validity to it. State some facts??
BOTC has to agree that the original poster brings an agenda to this thread that seems misplaced. We do not understand the "losing faith" or "blackballed" comments. On the one hand, the post talks about a lack of faith, yet then discusses the program's reach. What does it mean to be blackballed by a program in which you have no faith?

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Re: Girls 2015 Fall 2011/Spring 2012
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I didn't see any college coaches there.
I think your numbers on teams are about right. The LI clubs that did send teams sent very limited numbers of teams, not their whole clubs.

I have no personal knowledge but I can imagine that the price of the tournament is probably a legit gripe.

I feel like the 25 minute mini-game format hurts them and that the late season date hurts them.

Whether it's the above reasons, personal animosity or something else entirely, the fact remains that this tournament used to be MUCH better. With lots of clubs from upstate, New England, Jersey and Maryland as well as the full clubs on LI. Hopefully it will get better again.

Originally Posted by CageSage
The Elite Showcase was well attended on the coaching side (approximately 25 institutions represented) and the team count (approximately 75-80 teams) was below the total capacity by a slight amount. The Yellow Jackets teams accounted for about 25 of the total teams.

The Long Island teams (non-Yellow Jackets) that attended included these : Long Island Raiders, Long Island Express, Smithtown, Team 91, Huntington, Nor'Easter, Hauppauge, Premier, Farmingdale, and Long Island Pride. Even with these clubs, the number of attending teams were limited.

Our point is that teams like the Long Island Liberty and Top Guns to name two just chose not to attend. Our question is why would these franchises not attend this showcase opportunity? When BOTC made personal calls, we were told that the money was only helping the Yellow Jackets program, the attending coaches were not of interest, the tournament was "too expensive", and that the clubs had other plans.

The fact remains that the off-Island representation at our own home town recruiting event was stronger than the local support. For a full listing of the teams involved, access the following link : Long Island Elite Showcase Schedule (PDF Format)

Last edited by CageSage; . Reason: Corrected Quoted Area
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Re: Girls 2015 Fall 2011/Spring 2012
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Who runs the Elite Showcase?

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Re: Girls 2015 Fall 2011/Spring 2012
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Originally Posted by Powderfinger
Who runs the Elite Showcase?
The Yellow Jackets organization.

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thats why the numbers are down

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Originally Posted by Powderfinger
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
News for the 2015 age group from Mid-Atlantic Tournament : Top Guns 2015 Purple defeats Diamonds 2015, 9-4, in opening game. Top Guns 2015 Black win handily, 11-1, over Jets Black 2015 in their first game.



It is a shame that YJs, Liberty, Express and Team 91 were all not at the tournament. I would like to have seen them play against each other.


I NEVER want to see Long Island teams playing each other after a 5 hour drive onth NJ Turnpike. Even in the bracket rounds I'd rather go home early and meet up somewhere later. What would be nice is to see all of them playing on LI.


Agreed. Nothing pisses off the parents more than driving through traffic, paying tolls and travel expenses, and then finding out you're playing teams from LI.


Disagree. Where else are the long island teams suppossed to play each other? There really are no tournaments to speak of on long island, so if it were not for these out of state, or at least off of long island tournaments, LI teams would never get to play one another. I think it's nice that most tournaments try to limit playing next door teams in the pool play. LI geographically just can't handle the space needed for these moster tournament, feilds, parking, hotels etc.... And if you want to try to compare the elite showcase to one of the big tournaments, don't waste your time. Plus the fact that none of the long island teams want to further fund the yj organization.

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I see they had 75-80 teams in the tourney. The Numbers were not down very much at all. That tourney has never been that big. Maybe 90 at the most. What are you talking about? They have a big draw from Ct. They obviously dont need the LI teams to play.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
thats why the numbers are down


Another Ignorant Statement very Classy!!

The college coaches love them!! Get a grip they recruit all their kids

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Re: Girls 2015 Fall 2011/Spring 2012
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Originally Posted by CageSage
Originally Posted by Powderfinger
True, though, that it would be great for LI Lax if there were local tournaments attended by the local clubs. Refresh my memory, what happened with the Elite tournament? Why was it not well attended?
The Elite Showcase was well attended on the coaching side (approximately 25 institutions represented) and the team count (approximately 75-80 teams) was below the total capacity by a slight amount. The Yellow Jackets teams accounted for about 25 of the total teams.

The Long Island teams (non-Yellow Jackets) that attended included these : Long Island Raiders, Long Island Express, Smithtown, Team 91, Huntington, Nor'Easter, Hauppauge, Premier, Farmingdale, and Long Island Pride. Even with these clubs, the number of attending teams were limited.

Our point is that teams like the Long Island Liberty and Top Guns to name two just chose not to attend. Our question is why would these franchises not attend this showcase opportunity? When BOTC made personal calls, we were told that the money was only helping the Yellow Jackets program, the attending coaches were not of interest, the tournament was "too expensive", and that the clubs had other plans.

The fact remains that the off-Island representation at our own home town recruiting event was stronger than the local support. For a full listing of the teams involved, access the following link : Long Island Elite Showcase Schedule (PDF Format)


I'll tell you what I heard. I did not experience this firsthand so consider it hearsay, but those who told me believed it. The feeling is that Carol Rose manipulates the schedules to favor YJ. If YJ is initially scheduled to play a tougher, more competitive team, then perhaps there is a schedule change so that team plays consecutive games so they don't reach the YJ teams fresh.

Is it true? I have no idea. But apparently the belief alone could be enough to keep clubs from the Elite tournament.

<now settling back to watch the fireworks>

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Re: Girls 2015 Fall 2011/Spring 2012
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
I see they had 75-80 teams in the tourney. The Numbers were not down very much at all. That tourney has never been that big. Maybe 90 at the most. What are you talking about? They have a big draw from Ct. They obviously dont need the LI teams to play.
Given the overall strength of Long Island's lacrosse programs collectively, Long Island must establish itself as a stronger recruiting foothold across numerous clubs; it will do this only if the Long Island clubs completely support these types of local recruiting events. While we agree that the Elite Tournament might not "need" Long Island teams in order to fill its book of available team slots, the tournament would undoubtedly be a more valuable "property" (for want of a better word) if unilateral support across Long Island's top programs was avaiable. After all, there is value in a college coach being able to see player X from the Yellow Jackets, player Y from the Top Guns, and player Z from the Liberty in a single weekend and single location.

Earlier, we used an analogy from the Girls Soccer world. Albertson (Fury) and Paul Riley's program have walked around with a bulls-eye on their backs for sometime - the strongest girls programs on the whole and the most revered and hated for that reason. However, when Paul formed the National Elite Showcase (Thanksgiving weekend) the top Long Island premier teams came out to support the tournament. Why? Simply stated, it was a great recruiting venue for the local soccer programs.

Every day that Long Island teams drive the five hours down I-95 to Maryland to showcase (and eventually play each other while funding the Maryland programs) is another indication that the Baltimore beltway is gaining strength as a national power for recruiting at Long Island's expense.

Looking at this situation through any one team's prism will not work. The view just has to be on a Long Island lacrosse basis. The market will shrink given the direction currently being followed, not grow.

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Re: Girls 2015 Fall 2011/Spring 2012
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Originally Posted by Powderfinger
Originally Posted by CageSage
The fact remains that the off-Island representation at our own home town recruiting event was stronger than the local support. For a full listing of the teams involved, access the following link : Long Island Elite Showcase Schedule (PDF Format)

I'll tell you what I heard. I did not experience this firsthand so consider it hearsay, but those who told me believed it. The feeling is that Carol Rose manipulates the schedules to favor YJ. If YJ is initially scheduled to play a tougher, more competitive team, then perhaps there is a schedule change so that team plays consecutive games so they don't reach the YJ teams fresh.

Is it true? I have no idea. But apparently the belief alone could be enough to keep clubs from the Elite tournament.

<now settling back to watch the fireworks>
The schedule file is attached. While BOTC has heard the "rumor", let's find the spot in the schedule whether the conspiracy theory holds. [BOTC has supplied the tools; we will leave it to the readers to undercover the "evidence". Quite frankly, the argument about "fixed" schedules just feels empty to us.]

At the end of the day, Powderfinger, we heard earlier that the complaint was that the 25-minute game format was a turn-off for some. Now, we are hearing that two back-to-back 25 minute games are being manipulated. Who knows? Maybe all of the conspiracy theories are correct. But, isn't being able to play two 25-minute "halves" with an inter-game break a reasonable request in the lacrosse world? Particularly for a showcase player?

The one point that is critical about your note is perception. The emotion is driven by perception. If BOTC could help smooth the ruffled-feathers, it would be worthwhile for the game. Clearly we are shining the light on the subject in an effort to bring about change - and if not change, at least enhance the dialogue.

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Originally Posted by CageSage
Originally Posted by Powderfinger
Originally Posted by CageSage
The fact remains that the off-Island representation at our own home town recruiting event was stronger than the local support. For a full listing of the teams involved, access the following link : Long Island Elite Showcase Schedule (PDF Format)

I'll tell you what I heard. I did not experience this firsthand so consider it hearsay, but those who told me believed it. The feeling is that Carol Rose manipulates the schedules to favor YJ. If YJ is initially scheduled to play a tougher, more competitive team, then perhaps there is a schedule change so that team plays consecutive games so they don't reach the YJ teams fresh.

Is it true? I have no idea. But apparently the belief alone could be enough to keep clubs from the Elite tournament.

<now settling back to watch the fireworks>
The schedule file is attached. While BOTC has heard the "rumor", let's find the spot in the schedule whether the conspiracy theory holds. [BOTC has supplied the tools; we will leave it to the readers to undercover the "evidence". Quite frankly, the argument about "fixed" schedules just feels empty to us.]

At the end of the day, Powderfinger, we heard earlier that the complaint was that the 25-minute game format was a turn-off for some. Now, we are hearing that two back-to-back 25 minute games are being manipulated. Who knows? Maybe all of the conspiracy theories are correct. But, isn't being able to play two 25-minute "halves" with an inter-game break a reasonable request in the lacrosse world? Particularly for a showcase player?

The one point that is critical about your note is perception. The emotion is driven by perception. If BOTC could help smooth the ruffled-feathers, it would be worthwhile for the game. Clearly we are shining the light on the subject in an effort to bring about change - and if not change, at least enhance the dialogue.



The fact is the other LI programs are NOT STRONG enough as CLUBS to compete against the YJ teams as a whole. Yes they may win a few games here and there, but they will LOOSE more than they win. CLUB OWNERS dont want their parents to see this and thus they stay away from YJ as much as possible so they dont LOOSE MONEY. Its all about the MONEY. They not only AVOID YJ on LI, but they AVOID YJ by not entering in the same tourneys.

IF you think these club owners want to go head to head with YJ
your crazy. They may talk a good game, but NONE of them have the National Recognition yet they YJ has. Will they maybe. It depends how hard they want to work. Only time will tell.

The conspiracy schedule sounds far fetched. Club Owners who are ready to take on the YJ as a whole, because they feel they can compete, would not care about their assigned schedule. They think they will win no matter what schedule they received.

Maybe we can get directors of tourney to schedule longer games since that seams to be a legitimate complaint. May not be doable with a 1 day event with so many teams.

Instead of talking trash get your Club Owner to go KICK THEIR [lacrosse] on the field instead of avoiding them for NO REASON

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Stop with the nonsense of setting teams up for failure , a couple years ago my daughters yj team played a year older 2015 yj blue and a year older top tg team, if that is setting them up for an easy tournament I must have missed something.This year they played something like 11 games in two days having to start some of the games man down because the other girls were coming from the previous game on the other side of the venue when they played in Delaware. Every year in every sport there are these conspiracy theories, I think some people just over think it.

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Re: Girls 2015 Fall 2011/Spring 2012
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
I see they had 75-80 teams in the tourney. The Numbers were not down very much at all. That tourney has never been that big. Maybe 90 at the most. What are you talking about? They have a big draw from Ct. They obviously dont need the LI teams to play.
first off, I am not surprised that conn. teams go to the elite tourney, doesn't carol have her hand in the ct. chargers, and i'm sure there are connections to other teams up there through the chargers. Understanding that there is a cost to running this event, couldn't carol find a worthy charity to donate the money to, and maybe even include the other directors in the choosing of such a charity. then it would be a little difficult for the other clubs to justify not attending. that is if they really wanted the best teams from the island to play on the island, If it is just to showcase YJ against not as competitive teams and make money because she did all work than hey , she deserves it, she works very hard. but i don't know if that would work either. carol must be angry at shannon, and i don't know why danielle and carol don't see eye to eye. personally i think it would be fantastic to see all the li teams go at each other on the island, it could only help island lacrosse

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Originally Posted by libertydad
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I see they had 75-80 teams in the tourney. The Numbers were not down very much at all. That tourney has never been that big. Maybe 90 at the most. What are you talking about? They have a big draw from Ct. They obviously dont need the LI teams to play.
first off, I am not surprised that conn. teams go to the elite tourney, doesn't carol have her hand in the ct. chargers, and i'm sure there are connections to other teams up there through the chargers. Understanding that there is a cost to running this event, couldn't carol find a worthy charity to donate the money to, and maybe even include the other directors in the choosing of such a charity. then it would be a little difficult for the other clubs to justify not attending. that is if they really wanted the best teams from the island to play on the island, If it is just to showcase YJ against not as competitive teams and make money because she did all work than hey , she deserves it, she works very hard. but i don't know if that would work either. carol must be angry at shannon, and i don't know why danielle and carol don't see eye to eye. personally i th
Wink it would be fantastic to see all the li teams go at each other on the island, it could only help island lacrosse



She tried that already lax for hope the same teams avoided YJ again.

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Re: Girls 2015 Fall 2011/Spring 2012
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Originally Posted by libertydad
first off, I am not surprised that conn. teams go to the elite tourney, doesn't carol have her hand in the ct. chargers, and i'm sure there are connections to other teams up there through the chargers.
From where did you get this information? Jeff Brameier is the Founder/Director of the Connnecticut Chargers lacrosse program. Please share the source of your information.

Originally Posted by libertydad
Understanding that there is a cost to running this event, couldn't carol find a worthy charity to donate the money to, and maybe even include the other directors in the choosing of such a charity. then it would be a little difficult for the other clubs to justify not attending.
BOTC is missing this argument entirely.

Why does a Long Island lacrosse club like the Yellow Jackets that has the ability to attract a significant number of college coaches for their showcase need to turn over revenues to charity in order to attract other Long Island teams? The Yellow Jackets are sharing their recruiting contacts (colleges) by getting the coaches onto the Island. This is what completely baffles us here at BOTC.

The tournament cost is effectively multiple times cheaper than trying to get access to those same coaches off Long Island at another club's tournament. So, why does profit need to be turned over to charity for doing the work and then providing access to those coaches?

Originally Posted by libertydad
that is if they really wanted the best teams from the island to play on the island, If it is just to showcase YJ against not as competitive teams and make money because she did all work than hey , she deserves it, she works very hard.
This is why BOTC comes off as a "Carol Rose" supporter when we are just trying to give a balanced view. Our guess is that the Yellow Jackets will play everyone and anyone that shows up. The results of any one showcase game will not determine the club's reputation, national standing, or recruitment of players.

Originally Posted by libertydad
... but i don't know if that would work either. carol must be angry at shannon, and i don't know why danielle and carol don't see eye to eye.
Having spoken directly with Coach Rose on all of the Long Island relationships, we do not think that there is ill-will with Shannon Smith on any level, but there is a competitive aspect that does exist now for position in the marketplace. As for the Yellow Jackets/Liberty relationship, we can hand over heart say that principle participants maintain what can best be termed a cold relationship. Danielle and Carol were friends and teammates from years back - the genesis of the Liberty program is where the source of the rift can be found. Basically, the Liberty was not originally supposed to be based on Long Island.

Originally Posted by libertydad
personally i think it would be fantastic to see all the li teams go at each other on the island, it could only help island lacrosse
We agree.

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Re: Girls 2015 Fall 2011/Spring 2012
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
IF you think these club owners want to go head to head with YJ
your crazy. They may talk a good game, but NONE of them have the National Recognition yet they YJ has. Will they maybe. It depends how hard they want to work. Only time will tell.
As a premier level or elite level coach, ducking any competition is a sign that the coach is not thinking about improving. When we were coaching, we looked forward to playing the number one team. We lost more often than we won, however when you lose to the best, you know that you are in second place and on the climb. Nothing better for an athlete than to present a clear challenge to raise their game. This is about coaching and inspiring your team.

Originally Posted by Anonymous
Maybe we can get directors of tourney to schedule longer games since that seams to be a legitimate complaint. May not be doable with a 1 day event with so many teams.
Perhaps, but at least the thinking is proactive. What would it take to get the Elite Showcase to be a two-day event?

Originally Posted by Anonymous
Instead of talking trash get your Club Owner to go KICK THEIR [lacrosse] on the field instead of avoiding them for NO REASON
While we might not have said it the same way :-), we agree with the sentiment.

How about everyone else reading this 2015 thread thinking about showcasing? What is your view? The discussion has been lively and informative.

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Originally Posted by CageSage
Originally Posted by libertydad
first off, I am not surprised that conn. teams go to the elite tourney, doesn't carol have her hand in the ct. chargers, and i'm sure there are connections to other teams up there through the chargers.
From where did you get this information? Jeff Brameier is the Founder/Director of the Connnecticut Chargers lacrosse program. Please share the source of your information.

Originally Posted by libertydad
Understanding that there is a cost to running this event, couldn't carol find a worthy charity to donate the money to, and maybe even include the other directors in the choosing of such a charity. then it would be a little difficult for the other clubs to justify not attending.
BOTC is missing this argument entirely.

Why does a Long Island lacrosse club like the Yellow Jackets that has the ability to attract a significant number of college coaches for their showcase need to turn over revenues to charity in order to attract other Long Island teams? The Yellow Jackets are sharing their recruiting contacts (colleges) by getting the coaches onto the Island. This is what completely baffles us here at BOTC.

The tournament cost is effectively multiple times cheaper than trying to get access to those same coaches off Long Island at another club's tournament. So, why does profit need to be turned over to charity for doing the work and then providing access to those coaches?

Originally Posted by libertydad
that is if they really wanted the best teams from the island to play on the island, If it is just to showcase YJ against not as competitive teams and make money because she did all work than hey , she deserves it, she works very hard.
This is why BOTC comes off as a "Carol Rose" supporter when we are just trying to give a balanced view. Our guess is that the Yellow Jackets will play everyone and anyone that shows up. The results of any one showcase game will not determine the club's reputation, national standing, or recruitment of players.

Originally Posted by libertydad
... but i don't know if that would work either. carol must be angry at shannon, and i don't know why danielle and carol don't see eye to eye.
Having spoken directly with Coach Rose on all of the Long Island relationships, we do not think that there is ill-will with Shannon Smith on any level, but there is a competitive aspect that does exist now for position in the marketplace. As for the Yellow Jackets/Liberty relationship, we can hand over heart say that principle participants maintain what can best be termed a cold relationship. Danielle and Carol were friends and teammates from years back - the genesis of the Liberty program is where the source of the rift can be found. Basically, the Liberty was not originally supposed to be based on Long Island.

Originally Posted by libertydad
personally i think it would be fantastic to see all the li teams go at each other on the island, it could only help island lacrosse
We agree.


Cage Sage - I have read many of your posts and you definitely come off as a Carol Rose/YJ supporter. That is very easy to see.

Carol was the first to the market with the YJ's and she built a great program, anyone who would say differently is full of it. She clearly has the numbers which is a huge advantage. However, she also has a win at all cost mentality.

You seem fairly new to the whole girl's lacrosse club scene and you seem a little naive. Why can't we all get along? You don't know history. Carol's own coaches are scared of her. They might not admit it publicly, but they are.

You claim she has no problem with Shannon starting the TG's - you are out of your mind. You have no idea what she has done behind the scenes to bad mouth Shannon and her father. She has made some pretty outlandish comments. If she treats her former players this way, how do you think she treats opposing team or clubs from LI.

It's not that other LI clubs don't want to play in their tournament because of talent of the YJ's or fear, it's because they don't want to help her financially.

The YJ's are the top program on LI right now. In a few years from now - maybe not.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by libertydad
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I see they had 75-80 teams in the tourney. The Numbers were not down very much at all. That tourney has never been that big. Maybe 90 at the most. What are you talking about? They have a big draw from Ct. They obviously dont need the LI teams to play.
first off, I am not surprised that conn. teams go to the elite tourney, doesn't carol have her hand in the ct. chargers, and i'm sure there are connections to other teams up there through the chargers. Understanding that there is a cost to running this event, couldn't carol find a worthy charity to donate the money to, and maybe even include the other directors in the choosing of such a charity. then it would be a little difficult for the other clubs to justify not attending. that is if they really wanted the best teams from the island to play on the island, If it is just to showcase YJ against not as competitive teams and make money because she did all work than hey , she deserves it, she works very hard. but i don't know if that would work either. carol must be angry at shannon, and i don't know why danielle and carol don't see eye to eye. personally i th
Wink it would be fantastic to see all the li teams go at each other on the island, it could only help island lacrosse



She tried that already lax for hope the same teams avoided YJ again.


My daughter's non-yj team played in this tournament. I think many of the yellow jacket teams participated, and that is alot of teams. I don't know the numbers but it certainly felt like every field had a yj team on it, they certainly made up the bulk of organizations represented in this tournament. We didn't know going in that this tournament was basically run by yj's, but it is apparent now. The "in thing" with lax tournaments these days seems to be incorporating a charity theme, which this one had. This one benefitted the fight against breast cancer, and it is good to see money being collected and donated to a good cause. The tournament sponsors asked each player to raise I think $100 or more to donate, which my daughter was very excited and happy to do. Do not know if a portion of the tournaments proceeds were also donated, you would hope so. But anyway back to the response, you are right the other long island teams saw what I did not, that this was a yj sponsored event and stayed away from it. Yet it was still a good excuse to play some fall ball and in the end, it supported a good cause. I think if you want to get all the other long island teams to compete at a LI based tournament, it can't be sponsored by one of the clubs, there seems to be too much ill will there, especially towards YJ's. And I don't think there is anywhere on LI that you could pull off a real tournament like they do in PA, NJ and MD. So if it can't be done right, why even bother other than to keep the sticks in the girl’s hands. And that is what this tournament was, 7 vs. 7, tiny fields, short half, one day... whatever. A chance to get a stick in the girl's hands. But a far cry from a real tournament.

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Re: Girls 2015 Fall 2011/Spring 2012
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I agree with Cage Sage.Despite what Carol R. may say I have heard that she has relentlessly badmouthed a wonderful and exceptionally talented youg role model, Shannon, and her father. Now in truth Shannon is too classy to say this, and for me it is only third hand but my sense, as I go to tournaments and watch how various people conduct their business, I'm inclined to lean towards some truth in this. I can certainly see why CR might feel that Shannon owes her, as the Yellow Jackets were a big part of her own development. But it seems to me that we should celebrate having such a talent come back and spread her own wings, bringing her own signature into the development of lacrosse here on the Island. Just my opinion.

I hope that some day we can find a way to have a TRUE cooperative effort in running a Long Island Tournament. Heh I could pass on seing the NJ Turnpike. However, I suspect that as long as it is a Yellow Jackets only gig, it will always carry some bad vibes for some of our local programs.

BOTC seems pretty levelheaded so it may fall to an independent "Commissioner" liike you to pull this off. Best of Luck with that! I'll volunteer if it is a Long Island "Team" effort.

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Tournaments are money makers, regardless of the sport. Clubs host tournaments to raise funds. No shame in that. I just think that it is unreasonable to expect clubs to work together to put on a LI festival, too many chiefs, not enough indians in that. Now, if lax ever got a LI governin body, maybe that organization could put something together...

Secondly, has anyone seen the fields in Brentwood adjacent to SCCC West? Huge fields. I've been there for soccer, not sure who owns them, but that seems like a great location to host a lax tournament. It's close enough to the LIE for hotels, too. Lord knows we all stay at hotels a good distance from all our out-of-state tournaments.

Just my two cents, your mileage may vary.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by CageSage
Originally Posted by libertydad
first off, I am not surprised that conn. teams go to the elite tourney, doesn't carol have her hand in the ct. chargers, and i'm sure there are connections to other teams up there through the chargers.
From where did you get this information? Jeff Brameier is the Founder/Director of the Connnecticut Chargers lacrosse program. Please share the source of your information.

Originally Posted by libertydad
Understanding that there is a cost to running this event, couldn't carol find a worthy charity to donate the money to, and maybe even include the other directors in the choosing of such a charity. then it would be a little difficult for the other clubs to justify not attending.
BOTC is missing this argument entirely.

Why does a Long Island lacrosse club like the Yellow Jackets that has the ability to attract a significant number of college coaches for their showcase need to turn over revenues to charity in order to attract other Long Island teams? The Yellow Jackets are sharing their recruiting contacts (colleges) by getting the coaches onto the Island. This is what completely baffles us here at BOTC.

The tournament cost is effectively multiple times cheaper than trying to get access to those same coaches off Long Island at another club's tournament. So, why does profit need to be turned over to charity for doing the work and then providing access to those coaches?

Originally Posted by libertydad
that is if they really wanted the best teams from the island to play on the island, If it is just to showcase YJ against not as competitive teams and make money because she did all work than hey , she deserves it, she works very hard.
This is why BOTC comes off as a "Carol Rose" supporter when we are just trying to give a balanced view. Our guess is that the Yellow Jackets will play everyone and anyone that shows up. The results of any one showcase game will not determine the club's reputation, national standing, or recruitment of players.

Originally Posted by libertydad
... but i don't know if that would work either. carol must be angry at shannon, and i don't know why danielle and carol don't see eye to eye.
Having spoken directly with Coach Rose on all of the Long Island relationships, we do not think that there is ill-will with Shannon Smith on any level, but there is a competitive aspect that does exist now for position in the marketplace. As for the Yellow Jackets/Liberty relationship, we can hand over heart say that principle participants maintain what can best be termed a cold relationship. Danielle and Carol were friends and teammates from years back - the genesis of the Liberty program is where the source of the rift can be found. Basically, the Liberty was not originally supposed to be based on Long Island.

Originally Posted by libertydad
personally i think it would be fantastic to see all the li teams go at each other on the island, it could only help island lacrosse
We agree.


Cage Sage - I have read many of your posts and you definitely come off as a Carol Rose/YJ supporter. That is very easy to see.

Carol was the first to the market with the YJ's and she built a great program, anyone who would say differently is full of it. She clearly has the numbers which is a huge advantage. However, she also has a win at all cost mentality.

You seem fairly new to the whole girl's lacrosse club scene and you seem a little naive. Why can't we all get along? You don't know history. Carol's own coaches are scared of her. They might not admit it publicly, but they are.

You claim she has no problem with Shannon starting the TG's - you are out of your mind. You have no idea what she has done behind the scenes to bad mouth Shannon and her father. She has made some pretty outlandish comments. If she treats her former players this way, how do you think she treats opposing team or clubs from LI.

It's not that other LI clubs don't want to play in their tournament because of talent of the YJ's or fear, it's because they don't want to help her financially.

The YJ's are the top program on LI right now. In a few years from now - maybe not.


As a current YJ coach the statement regarding the coaches being afraid of her is completly ridiculous!! Sad you had to make that up.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by CageSage
Originally Posted by libertydad
first off, I am not surprised that conn. teams go to the elite tourney, doesn't carol have her hand in the ct. chargers, and i'm sure there are connections to other teams up there through the chargers.
From where did you get this information? Jeff Brameier is the Founder/Director of the Connnecticut Chargers lacrosse program. Please share the source of your information.

Originally Posted by libertydad
Understanding that there is a cost to running this event, couldn't carol find a worthy charity to donate the money to, and maybe even include the other directors in the choosing of such a charity. then it would be a little difficult for the other clubs to justify not attending.
BOTC is missing this argument entirely.

Why does a Long Island lacrosse club like the Yellow Jackets that has the ability to attract a significant number of college coaches for their showcase need to turn over revenues to charity in order to attract other Long Island teams? The Yellow Jackets are sharing their recruiting contacts (colleges) by getting the coaches onto the Island. This is what completely baffles us here at BOTC.

The tournament cost is effectively multiple times cheaper than trying to get access to those same coaches off Long Island at another club's tournament. So, why does profit need to be turned over to charity for doing the work and then providing access to those coaches?

Originally Posted by libertydad
that is if they really wanted the best teams from the island to play on the island, If it is just to showcase YJ against not as competitive teams and make money because she did all work than hey , she deserves it, she works very hard.
This is why BOTC comes off as a "Carol Rose" supporter when we are just trying to give a balanced view. Our guess is that the Yellow Jackets will play everyone and anyone that shows up. The results of any one showcase game will not determine the club's reputation, national standing, or recruitment of players.

Originally Posted by libertydad
... but i don't know if that would work either. carol must be angry at shannon, and i don't know why danielle and carol don't see eye to eye.
Having spoken directly with Coach Rose on all of the Long Island relationships, we do not think that there is ill-will with Shannon Smith on any level, but there is a competitive aspect that does exist now for position in the marketplace. As for the Yellow Jackets/Liberty relationship, we can hand over heart say that principle participants maintain what can best be termed a cold relationship. Danielle and Carol were friends and teammates from years back - the genesis of the Liberty program is where the source of the rift can be found. Basically, the Liberty was not originally supposed to be based on Long Island.

Originally Posted by libertydad
personally i think it would be fantastic to see all the li teams go at each other on the island, it could only help island lacrosse
We agree.


Cage Sage - I have read many of your posts and you definitely come off as a Carol Rose/YJ supporter. That is very easy to see.

Carol was the first to the market with the YJ's and she built a great program, anyone who would say differently is full of it. She clearly has the numbers which is a huge advantage. However, she also has a win at all cost mentality.

You seem fairly new to the whole girl's lacrosse club scene and you seem a little naive. Why can't we all get along? You don't know history. Carol's own coaches are scared of her. They might not admit it publicly, but they are.

You claim she has no problem with Shannon starting the TG's - you are out of your mind. You have no idea what she has done behind the scenes to bad mouth Shannon and her father. She has made some pretty outlandish comments. If she treats her former players this way, how do you think she treats opposing team or clubs from LI.

It's not that other LI clubs don't want to play in their tournament because of talent of the YJ's or fear, it's because they don't want to help her financially.

The YJ's are the top program on LI right now. In a few years from now - maybe not.
I totally agree with most of this post. I have herd of the Danielle ,Carol feud over liberty being started on the island, I don't see the problem with danielle starting a program here ,I didn't know Carol owned Long Island, I believe Carol played earlier for Manhassett than Danielle , and that there is a little jealousy over how well Danielle fared . I also can understand Carol could be upset over losing most Manhassett players to Danielle, Manhassett has been a lax powerhouse for decades , and what team would not want that talent pool to choose from. But why should Danielle give up her own players to Carol,I think it was well within her rights to start a program based where she coaches a varsity team. as far as getting college coaches go Danielle had a small tourney up at Manhassett where at the end of the day Syracuse , Fairfield and Stony Brook , all played each other,so obviously Danielle has no problem contacting D1 coaches and, I noticed that Carol Rose was also there.And personally , if I were Carol Rose I'd be pissed at Shannon a little bit too, I went to TG tryouts and there were a bunch of YJ defects there. That being said Shannon also has every right to start a program here too.

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Maybe if a charitable organization that has no ties to any one club decided to put together a long island championship the various clubs would support it. Seems it would be a win for all involved.Would prefer it to be a championship format. That being said I have yet to see this win at all costs mentality on any yj team .My daughter played for yj in the past switched to another club then back again and I have seen little difference in the attitudes toward winning between clubs.

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CR does not care about any of them. She has over 26 teams. Who really cares. She will retire soon and move away from this garbage.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous

As a current YJ coach the statement regarding the coaches being afraid of her is completly ridiculous!! Sad you had to make that up.


I have seen this firsthand on a number of occasions and it is absolutely NOT made up.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous

As a current YJ coach the statement regarding the coaches being afraid of her is completly ridiculous!! Sad you had to make that up.


I have seen this firsthand on a number of occasions and it is absolutely NOT made up.


From the looks of coaching staff it has been one of the most consistant staffs around. Not much turnover from year to year. That says it all!


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Originally Posted by libertydad
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by CageSage
Originally Posted by libertydad
first off, I am not surprised that conn. teams go to the elite tourney, doesn't carol have her hand in the ct. chargers, and i'm sure there are connections to other teams up there through the chargers.
From where did you get this information? Jeff Brameier is the Founder/Director of the Connnecticut Chargers lacrosse program. Please share the source of your information.

Originally Posted by libertydad
Understanding that there is a cost to running this event, couldn't carol find a worthy charity to donate the money to, and maybe even include the other directors in the choosing of such a charity. then it would be a little difficult for the other clubs to justify not attending.
BOTC is missing this argument entirely.

Why does a Long Island lacrosse club like the Yellow Jackets that has the ability to attract a significant number of college coaches for their showcase need to turn over revenues to charity in order to attract other Long Island teams? The Yellow Jackets are sharing their recruiting contacts (colleges) by getting the coaches onto the Island. This is what completely baffles us here at BOTC.

The tournament cost is effectively multiple times cheaper than trying to get access to those same coaches off Long Island at another club's tournament. So, why does profit need to be turned over to charity for doing the work and then providing access to those coaches?

Originally Posted by libertydad
that is if they really wanted the best teams from the island to play on the island, If it is just to showcase YJ against not as competitive teams and make money because she did all work than hey , she deserves it, she works very hard.
This is why BOTC comes off as a "Carol Rose" supporter when we are just trying to give a balanced view. Our guess is that the Yellow Jackets will play everyone and anyone that shows up. The results of any one showcase game will not determine the club's reputation, national standing, or recruitment of players.

Originally Posted by libertydad
... but i don't know if that would work either. carol must be angry at shannon, and i don't know why danielle and carol don't see eye to eye.
Having spoken directly with Coach Rose on all of the Long Island relationships, we do not think that there is ill-will with Shannon Smith on any level, but there is a competitive aspect that does exist now for position in the marketplace. As for the Yellow Jackets/Liberty relationship, we can hand over heart say that principle participants maintain what can best be termed a cold relationship. Danielle and Carol were friends and teammates from years back - the genesis of the Liberty program is where the source of the rift can be found. Basically, the Liberty was not originally supposed to be based on Long Island.

Originally Posted by libertydad
personally i think it would be fantastic to see all the li teams go at each other on the island, it could only help island lacrosse
We agree.


Cage Sage - I have read many of your posts and you definitely come off as a Carol Rose/YJ supporter. That is very easy to see.

Carol was the first to the market with the YJ's and she built a great program, anyone who would say differently is full of it. She clearly has the numbers which is a huge advantage. However, she also has a win at all cost mentality.

You seem fairly new to the whole girl's lacrosse club scene and you seem a little naive. Why can't we all get along? You don't know history. Carol's own coaches are scared of her. They might not admit it publicly, but they are.

You claim she has no problem with Shannon starting the TG's - you are out of your mind. You have no idea what she has done behind the scenes to bad mouth Shannon and her father. She has made some pretty outlandish comments. If she treats her former players this way, how do you think she treats opposing team or clubs from LI.

It's not that other LI clubs don't want to play in their tournament because of talent of the YJ's or fear, it's because they don't want to help her financially.

The YJ's are the top program on LI right now. In a few years from now - maybe not.
I totally agree with most of this post. I have herd of the Danielle ,Carol feud over liberty being started on the island, I don't see the problem with danielle starting a program here ,I didn't know Carol owned Long Island, I believe Carol played earlier for Manhassett than Danielle , and that there is a little jealousy over how well Danielle fared . I also can understand Carol could be upset over losing most Manhassett players to Danielle, Manhassett has been a lax powerhouse for decades , and what team would not want that talent pool to choose from. But why should Danielle give up her own players to Carol,I think it was well within her rights to start a program based where she coaches a varsity team. as far as getting college coaches go Danielle had a small tourney up at Manhassett where at the end of the day Syracuse , Fairfield and Stony Brook , all played each other,so obviously Danielle has no problem contacting D1 coaches and, I noticed that Carol Rose was also there.And personally , if I were Carol Rose I'd be pissed at Shannon a little bit too, I went to TG tryouts and there were a bunch of YJ defects there. That being said Shannon also has every right to start a program here too.


So your saying CR has a right to be pissed at Shannon because some girls may decide to switch teams? That is crazy talk, if she is to be pissed at anyone, it should be at players for leaving, and you can't even get mad at that. All these other program have every right to start up and operate where ever and however they want, if a control freak can't handle that, too bad. I think its great for they girls to have options to play on various competitive teams. The more competitive clubs that spring up, the better. And that's what we are seeing here.

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Re: Girls 2015 Fall 2011/Spring 2012
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
From the looks of coaching staff it has been one of the most consistant staffs around. Not much turnover from year to year. That says it all!
Given the number of new clubs that have sprung up, one would have to assume that unhappy trainers and coaching staff members would have jumped shipped to catch on with other emerging programs. With new programs come many new opportunities - call it the "internet" expansion of youth lacrosse! If that "jumping ship" has not taken place with this fertile ground, you would have to think that the trainers are not that unhappy at all. We agree that the stability in the staffing does speak volumes.

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It all depends on how the owners directors went about starting their own clubs. I have heard of directors who were coaches /directers for one club who had access to that clubs e-mail lists etc. and took these lists to use for contacting existing players about going to a new club. I would see how there might be some hard feelings in that case.Although everyone has the right to go out on their own.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
It all depends on how the owners directors went about starting their own clubs. I have heard of directors who were coaches /directers for one club who had access to that clubs e-mail lists etc. and took these lists to use for contacting existing players about going to a new club. I would see how there might be some hard feelings in that case.Although everyone has the right to go out on their own.


Don't know if i really have a problem with this either. So you have a coach, director leaving for whatever reason (make one up). They are unhappy or see greener pastures going another route. They can't force players to leave with them, but if the player is also unhappy about certain aspects and/or sees greener pastures they may go too. Some players may be quite happy where they are and others may be happy to see the coach go. Bottom line is, all people, players, coaches, directors, parents should do what is best for themselves. Many people are unhappy with many aspects of what comes along with the YG organization, yet many people are quite happy to be a part of it. The kids on these team owe the organization nothing, and are free to leave for whatever reason. I have heard talk and have read on these threads that many people won't leave certain teams for fear of being black balled. Is this a concern between travel clubs or is there school ties to be concerned of?

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Re: Girls 2015 Fall 2011/Spring 2012
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So your saying CR has a right to be pissed at Shannon because some girls may decide to switch teams? That is crazy talk, if she is to be pissed at anyone, it should be at players for leaving, and you can't even get mad at that. All these other program have every right to start up and operate where ever and however they want, if a control freak can't handle that, too bad. I think its great for they girls to have options to play on various competitive teams. The more competitive clubs that spring up, the better. And that's what we are seeing here.
I stand corrected, i didn't mean she was justified, I meant Shannon is probably one of her most successful players, and maybe Carol felt a little betrayed.

[Please note : additional content in this posting was lost during reformatting. - CageSage]

Last edited by CageSage; . Reason: Reformatted Quoted Area
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Is this really fair for us to Specualte on how CR feels. I think this has gone way overboard and needs to be stopped.

From the looks of an email sent by the club today the YJ has huge numbers for tryouts and is doing just fine with all the other clubs. There is room for all the kids to play. I really dont think she is spending or should I say wasting any valuable time worrying about any of this. You should stop making cmments about stuff you really have no information about.

Good luck to all the clubs and our LI kids.

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Does anyone have info on fl$ 2015?

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I have heard that this is a new group that is being started by s few parents unhappy from Liberty

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Originally Posted by libertydad
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So your saying CR has a right to be pissed at Shannon because some girls may decide to switch teams? That is crazy talk, if she is to be pissed at anyone, it should be at players for leaving, and you can't even get mad at that. All these other program have every right to start up and operate where ever and however they want, if a control freak can't handle that, too bad. I think its great for they girls to have options to play on various competitive teams. The more competitive clubs that spring up, the better. And that's what we are seeing here.
I stand corrected, i didn't mean she was justified, I meant Shannon is probably one of her most successful players, and maybe Carol felt a little betrayed.

[Please note : additional content in this posting was lost during reformatting. - CageSage]
Dame straight she feels betrayed. When Shannon scored the winning goal in the NCAA final four against North Carolina, Carol Rose and her Crony Coaches yelled out “Check her Stick” “Check her Stick”. Instead of being happy for her in the last minute of the game, she was looking for Shannon to fail. WOW! Talk about being bitter and yes it happen I was standing in front of Carol and Mitchell and others on her staff when they yelled it out.

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