BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums NORTHEAST LACROSSE BOTC MAIN FORUM (LI, CT, WC) Conflicts! When HS Coaches Incorporate Summer Tournament Teams in Town

Good question. The varsity coach needs to win games if he wants to keep his position so why would he not play his best players regardless of who they play for during the summer?

A few of you have responded to my original question and say it is not about cost but again, go back and read this thread. The majority of the objections I see are about the cost.

It seems like many people feel the varsity coach should coach all summer for free? Why should he? If he is coaching the team he should get paid. The summer is his time.

I am sure all these high school coaches now coaching for club teams are being paid very well to coach for the summer. The clubs charge enough to pay their coaches well.

If the high school coach is willing to coach the summer at a discounted price for his community why is that a bad thing? I still am not understanding this reasoning and I would love for someone to explain it to me logically so I can make an informed decision next summer. I am new to all of this but it seems more polarized than national politics.

So hostile, do you get out much? Perhaps try this--

breathe deeply and count to ten...

As for your comments, they don't move the conversation forward or merit a reply. You are dismissed, have a nice day.

Forget the thread and focus for a second. Not about cost -about the threat that kid won't play unless he pays HS travel instead of 91 or express or...

For all of you that think the best will play no matter what-I agree the two or three studs will play. those are the kids that were committed long before they ever played HS ball. They get committed prior to try outs in the spring. Of course the coach will play them.

The rest of the kids (the other 30 on every HS team) are pretty much equal and we all know it. So if You have two kids that are generally equal in all respects, height, weight, athletic ability, stick skills and lax IQ.

Who plays, the kid that stayed with the coach and played on coach's summer travel team or the kid that plays school ball during the school season but plays for 91 the rest of the year?

You are really missing it if you don't see a conflict here.

The coach can't win either. If he plays the kid that played on his team every summer, the other parents are pissed. If he plays the outside travel kid, the other parents are screaming "where is the loyalty".

It is a conflict and a no win situation. HS coaches should simply be HS coaches and get out of the summer travel and training business.

they add no value to the studs getting recruited, they can add value to the rest of the population by not putting themselves in this position to begin with...

easy tough guy...

Thank you for a well worded and reasonable explanation without the verbal abuse that seems to come so easy to anonymous posters here.

I can definitely see what you are saying now about a conflict.
It seems the high school coaches are in a no win situation. Either way someone complains.

But how can you keep them from working for a club during the summer? That is their time to do as they please and I am sure the clubs pay them very well for the time they give.

So if they coach for a club parents feel pressured to play for that club. If they try to do their own community based program parents feel pressured to play for the school team. Seems like a lose-lose all around.

Things were alot simpler 25 years ago when I played. You played in the spring and that was it. Summer was for fishing, fall was for football and winter was for wrestling. I am not looking forward to my son starting middle school and high school. Ugh.....

Its the sad truth. Things were a lot simpler when we grew up. Here is the problem as I see it. First, lets remember coaches are employees of our school districts and they are educators in our community. They are, for the most part, paid very well in Long Island. Their job is to teach in the school and they are paid extra to coach during their respective seasons.

Along come the travel programs and they have done well. They offer services for your kid to play lacrosse for a fee. Whether you think its right or not but they are PRIVATE entities.

The Town coach looks at them and says we can offer the same thing at a discounted price. That is where the conflict comes in. Who decided the prices?: They did. Who are you selling your services to? The people who pay taxes to the school district who employs the coach. If the School Districts ran the programs like they do the sports I personally wouldn't have a problem with it but that is not what is going on. There is no oversight and that is the conflict. There are budgets and oversight during the school year.

They are preying on the kids and parents of their community play for us or else and charging what they want. What's next let them dictate prices to play sports during regular season. I bet they would like to do that but reality is the schools have no business in the PRIVATE sector when you are a PUBLIC school employee. Want money go work for a PRIVATE lacrosse program.

just my thoughts.

I understand what you are saying but I disagree. I have no problem with a coach working for a club or running his own communtiy based program for extra money as long as there is no coersion by the coach to play for him. And that can happen no matter which option the coach decides to pursue.

When the school coach offers a summer program it is also a private enterprise, just like a club, it is not run through the schools and has nothing to do with the school disctrict other than the name.

The coach is doing it on his own time as a side business to his teaching job just as other teachers have tutoring businesses or are electricians or carpenters on their own time.

For the most part from what I have seen, at least in my communtiy, the school coach offers this at a much less expensive price than the clubs do. Maybe he is trying to keep his future players playing for him to keep them together and learn his system. Maybe he feels that will benefit him in the long run to build a championship varsity team. As long as he is not telling players they MUST play for him what is the problem with that?

Other coaches go to work for the club teams and make a lot of money that way. I have no problem with that either as long as those coaches are not telling their players that the MUST come and play for the club he is coaching for.

To me, I would rather have my son play for his future varsity staff in the summer at a discounted price from what I would have to pay for a club team.

Either way, the coach is making money at a side job/business on his own time.

I have no problem with either option a parent chooses for there son as long as there is no coersion but I would personally prefer the less expensive option at the youth level.

It seems in these forums that everyone is trying to justify their own decisions by belittling what others have chosen for their own son.

Again, Its a fact the kids in my community are being coerced by the coach. They are making a side business in the same community that they have a municipal job.

They should have oversight and not allowed to have a private business by having the play for us or else mentality. There alleged business is founded on their position of authority designated by the school district. I personally think if it wasn't affiliated with the school district that is fine but when you attach the town label to it I feel it deserves more accountability than saying we are doing it for a little less money. If they are so right they can call themselves any team name and there players will come but the fact is they will use the school district name to bully kids to play for them.

The fact is the coaches become insulted when a kid doesn't play for them because they have calculated that the player would be their because of money and or talent. I have heard next man up but we all know they want their horses and will put unnecessary pressure for a kid to play in the OFFSEASON as opposed to looking out for there individual best interest in the OFFSEASON.

We must remember we are talking about a summer program, not the regular season.

good point

I totally agree with you on that issue. If the coach is pressuring kids to play for him by using his position as the varsity coach to influence their decision then he should definately face some consequences.

My point was that he does not have to be running his own program to do that. He can be coaching for 91, or Express or Outlaws or any club and still use his position as varsity coach to pressure his kids to play for that program.

Either way it is not right and that coach should lose his job as varsity coach and maybe his teaching job as well. That is a form of harrassment if he uses his position of authority to pressure kids to play for him.

My position is that if the coach is running a town program to help bolster his varsity program, and not pressuring the kids to play for him but just offering the opportunity at a lesser cost than a club program then there should not be a problem even if he is making some money from it. If he is giving his time he should expect to be paid something.

Who's interests are being served?

Is this being done in the best interest of the children (players)?

Is there a conflict of interest?

That is the issue and I think it needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis and not throw everyone into the same pot. Some coaches do have the best intentions and others are in it for the money. And that goes both ways, for the clubs and the high school coaches.

Clubs do not hide the fact that they are "for profit". Parents and players are free to choose (without fear) what club if any they play for. Apples and Oranges.

Again, don't throw everyone in the same pot. I can only speak for my district but the coaching staff here never said they are not making money from summer. They are offering an alternative to the clubs at less than half the price of the clubs. The varsity coach has also said everyone is welcome to play for him or for a club or for both. The only thing he asks is that if you play for both and there is a schedule conflict he wants the town team to come first.
I do not see an issue with this and neither do many other parents. I would say at least half the boys playing for the town team also play for club teams. Thats their option.

Don't think this is true. When a high school coach is a director of a club program and he is hired to bring players from his town I think that's a conflict. More ayers he brings from his town the more he makes. So now players are obligated to play for the club team.

john jay youth lacrosse in cross river just placed Nick Daniello - director of primetime on the board, that is a major conflict of interest

It is and so is every other coach in Long Island that does this crap doing summer programs.

This is the point I broght up in an earlier post. It can be a conflict whether the high school coach runs his own program or if he coaches for a club. It all depends on the coach. No matter where he is coaching if he puts pressure on his players to play for him then that is a conflict. And most of the clubs now have high school coaches on their staff or their board of directors.

But you cannot stop coaches from doing something to earn money on their own time.
Again, it can be a conflict either way.
You can't just say that high school coaches should not run their own program because it is a conflict and not also say that it is also a conflict for them to work for a club.
It is only a conflict either way depending on the coach and the pressure he puts on kids and parents to play for him out side of the varsity team.
Every parent needs to evaluate their own situation and coach and see what the best option is for them and their child.
People should stop listening to all the bashing on here and make their own educated decisions.
Clubs are a great option for some but not for others.
Not every high school coach pressures his school players to play for him in the summer months, but every club is in it ONLY for the money. It is how they make a living and most club directors are doing very well because so many people have bought into their marketing.
If you doubt that then why does every club have two or three teams at every level? As long as a parent is willing to pay they are not going to turn anyone away.

Coaches should be allowed to earn extra money in the summer but not in the same town where they are the high school coach.

That doesnt solve the conflict as stated above. Even if they are coaching for a club there is still conflict if people feel pressured to play for them.

What is the difference between a school coach who runs a travel program and a math teacher who tutors on the side? A math teacher is allowed to tutor students for money as long as they are not that teachers student. The same rule should be applied to coaches. The coaches should be allowed to run/coach a travel team/program as long as the players are not on that coaches school team. Look at the travel programs on Long Island that are run by coaches - the conflicts are obvious and undeniable - and, this is secondary because if the coach wants to out time and effort into running a travel program they should, the money is enormous.

Stop it, these guys are earning extra bucks doing what they know best. Experts in their field.

I am in the minority, I wished my town coaches got involved with a team so we had an avenue (to be steered into) to play, instead, I play with a team who's coach is involved and I am envious.

I agree with you.
I am trying to figure out why all these people consider it a conflict to run a travel program in their town but not a conflict to coach for a club team?
I have more respect for the coach that wants to coach in his own town. Either way he could put pressure on his kids to play for him if he is inclined to do so and there is definitely more money for him with a club unless he is also charging upwards of $2000 for his town team, so obviously he must be doing it for more than just the money.

I agree as well. But . . . isn't there always the fear of the coach that he will accused of keeping players on the school team because they play on the town travel team? I think the coach is in a can't win situation there. He wants to keep a subpar player on the travel team to let him develop, but how does he cut that same kid when tryouts come along? He might feel pressured to keep the kid because he plays on the travel team. Then again, some coaches keep all of the kids - don't cut any - but they just don't play. Guess that would work in a smaller school district where coaches don't need to cut.

You're right. It is a no win situation for the coach.
Lacrosse parents have become crazy chasing a pipe dream of D1 full ride scholarships that don't exist.
Lacrosse is growing in popularity but it is not football or basketball at the college level.

Do most of these Summer/Travel HS Programs (excluding Spring Lacrosse) consist of a tryout? Are there A and B teams? or if numbers are low - do they only accept A players and the B or lower players will play school ball only? OR..is it write a check and you are on the Travel Team? - So in short...tryouts or not for these HS Coach-run Travel teams?

I can only speak for my district but here there are no cuts. If there are enough players at each grade level A and B teams are formed.
The focus of the summer program is developing players and teams, not on winning at the youth level.
The coaches philosophy is that by developing ALL of the younger players and not excluding anyone it will result in winning treams at the varsity level.

And here is the catch 22. If your child is excelling in Lacrosse or may have the opportunity to grow as a player outside of his district, why not go play for a club where all of the kids are at their skill level as opposed to playing for a town program where the skill levels vary.

The coaches will get mad at you if you elect to leave as if you did something wrong. At the youth level its not about winning but development of players is important and the HS coach will frown upon that parent going and playing elsewhere. Is it because of caring or money?

My district the kids are going outside and there is a clear difference between the ones that stay and the ones that go outside. Huge difference but the HS coaches aren't happy and they are using all of there bullying techniques to get the kids to stay. Conflict as I see it.

Again I can only speak for my district. Some of the boys do play for outside clubs as well as the town club. The HS coach has no problem with this, he only asks that if there are schedule conflicts that they make the town team the priority or give him a heads up when they are not going to be available so he can plan for it.

The Coach in our district is not open to outside travel Clubs and is pretty clear -- if you choose your travel Club for any reason over the town team -- your off the team. I understand developing teams but there is a benefit to having a player be coached by different coaches and playing with different players. It makes them a better player all around. Unfortunate some coaches are short sighted and on power trips. They may be sorry as kids leave the weaker town programs.

I truly wonder if there are people from the same district on the opposite side of this argument.

I know my town had some great dads who developed players but wanted the district to step in. The district never did and many of those players went to club, now many of those players do not or do not plan on attending the district HS. Had the district coaches been involved, with allowing club participation, I would think many of the players would have stayed home grown.

Shocked at the numbers my town has lost that are top players.

DEPENDS ON THE COACH, BUT I WOULD SAY IF THERE IS A CHECK THERE IS A SPOT IF EVEN ON THE SIDELINES. MANY OF THESE TEAMS DO HAVE FALL AND WINTER WORKOUTS THAT THEY HAVE TO ALLOW ANYONE INTERESTED TO JOIN IN ON THE FUN. IF USING THE SCHOOL PROPERTY. OR SO I THOUGHT.

I filed a complaint with Section XI. My HS coaches are trying to make summer lacrosse a mandatory thing. Who are these guys kidding? They have invaded the youth program.

News flash, a second grade kid or parents doesn't really care about HS. The concern is does the kid like the sport. Think about that greedy HS coaches.

Kudos to the coach for being flexible.

The real issue is the parents who need to recognize playing for any team guarantees their child nothing.

Instead of bitching about this stuff a better use of your time would be having a catch with your child. If you can't have a catch with your child, maybe consider spending some time learning how to.

This whole thread wouldn't exist if every district was like this, IMHO. In fact, the districts can act as a trusted resource for parents and advise them on travel and help families make the correct choices (objectivity is the key). Because we all can admit that there is a lot of benefit to being in the appropriate travel situation. No reason for this power struggle between district and travel, figure out a way to make it work and everybody wins.

"The District" has nothing to do with it in our town. It is the HS Coaches running a for profit business in the off season. The fact that it is "For Profit" takes the objectivity out of it. The coaches have a financial interest in their private business. The reason for the power struggle is due to more than one factor. Two of the factors are money and the ego of the coaches. Players and parents are afraid to say or do anything so it is allowed to continue.

There is most certainly a conflict of interest.

If you really believe that then don't play for them. No one can make you do something you do not want to do.
Any high school coach who doesn't play his best players in the spring, no matter if they play for him in the summer or not, is out of his mind and will not have a job for very long.
Every community wants to win at the varsity level in every sport. It is a pride thing. If the coach would purposely not play his best players trust me the community would be up in arms and the coach would not be coaching for very long.

In large districts with competitive programs this is not true. The absolute best will play no matter where they play in the summer but there are only a few of them. The next tier of player is where the problem lies. It is all very subjective so the coaches can do what they want.

Coaches are not fired for under performing and they are not fired for not playing the better players.

Demise of youth sports starts and ends with the NCAA. Giving 7th/8th graders verbal commitments is such a joke and causing feeding frenzies, and helping to get the few travel club owners very, very wealthy because they purposely bait parents and string them along with misinformation. We hang on thinking that our kid will get what they promise. We are partially to blame because at some point, one has to know that one's child just doesn't have it. BTW, it's OK not to be a top player. Your kid probably has other talents that you never bothered to recognize and develop because you're so focused on your own inadequacies. And then, you have the parents that happen to have the physically gifted kids that elevated them to some special status in their minds. And, there are many of these parents. They're loud. They were bullies or were bullied as kids. They are rashes that just won't go away. They're kids are usually assholes. I feel bad for their kids. Gotta suck to have these moms and dads for parents...