BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums NORTHEAST LACROSSE BOTC MAIN FORUM (LI, CT, WC) Cascade R helmets not certified

Just announced today. Go to cascadelacrosse.com for their statement.

this will be fixed in a week or so.

maybe NOSCOE could look into age verification next!!

This is going to be interesting to watch unfold. If NOSCOE reversers their decision they will almost be implying that they are not competent enough to run their own tests. I would imagine that there were multiple closed door meetings before they essentially sank the most popular helmet in the sport.

I am betting on a recall.

STX are about to get a higher percentage of the helmet market share.

Cascade will go bankrupt on this

This is a setup.

Btw it's NOCSAE. National Operating Committee on Standards for Athletic Equipment.

Is it just the R or is it also the CPX-R?

Would love to know the real story here. The helmet was NOCSAE certified by two independent labs, so it's odd that the certification would be pulled so long after the helmet was introduced.

It's also the Warrior

NOCSAE Voids the Certification of Two Lacrosse Helmets

BALTIMORE, Nov. 24, 2014 - US Lacrosse, the national governing body for men's and women's lacrosse, has been notified by NOCSAE (National Operating Committee on Standards for Athletic Equipment) that two lacrosse helmet models currently available in the marketplace -- the Cascade Model R and the Warrior Regulator -- do not meet the NOCSAE helmet standard, ND041.

NOCSAE's public statement, available in its entirety at www.nocsae.org, says that the organization made its determination following an independent investigation and evaluation of the two helmets, including a review of each manufacturer's internal testing and quality control data. As a result, NOCSAE has invalidated the manufacturer's certification of compliance for all manufacturing dates for the two helmet models.

Playing rules written by US Lacrosse, the NCAA and the NFHS (National Federation of State High School Associations) mandate that all helmets must meet NOCSAE standards and be NOCSAE certified. Both models had previously been certified by the manufacturers as compliant with the NOCSAE standard.

NOCSAE's statement adds that both Cascade and Warrior have been notified of these conclusions by NOCSAE, and have indicated that they are working to address the issue.

Consumers seeking further information about these two helmet models are advised to contact the manufacturers directly: Cascade (1-800-537-1702); Warrior (1-800-968-7845).

* * * *

Cascade posted the following, which appears right now as a pop-up if you visit their home page:

The National Operating Committee on Standards for Athletic Equipment (NOCSAE) has announced that the Cascade R model lacrosse helmet no longer complies with NOCSAE standard ND041 and that Cascade's certification of compliance on that helmet model only is invalid.

We are working with NOCSAE to clarify the concerns and appropriately address the issue. However, our first priority is always our loyal Cascade customers.

Players not in immediate need of a certified helmet are encouraged to retain their helmet. Cascade is confident that we will be able to re-certify the helmet and that recertification could be a simple fix. We expect to communicate all available remedies as soon as possible, once approved by NOCSAE.

We are communicating the following information to the consumers:

•If you are a player that owns an R helmet and has games in November/Early December but do not own another certified helmet, you should contact your preferred lacrosse retailer to understand if they have the ability to fit you with a certified helmet. If yes, return your R helmet to that retailer and they will provide a replacement.

•If you are a player that owns an R helmet and are not using it until the season starts, we are asking you to please hold onto your helmet in the short-term. As we get closer to season start we will have a procedure in place for you to receive either an update to your R model or another replacement option.

•If you are a team that owns R helmets and has games in November/Early December but do not have another certified helmet solution, please contact Cascade customer service at 1(800) 537-1702 and we will do our best to find a lacrosse retailer to support your needs.

•If you are a team that has R helmets and do not need to use them immediately we are asking you to please hold onto your helmets in the short-term. As we get closer to season start we have a procedure in place for you to receive either an update to your R models or another replacement option.

Detailed instructions on necessary steps will be made available on our web site www.CascadeLacrosse.com and provided to all relevant governing bodies as soon as they become available.

It is important to note that the Cascade R model has passed applicable NOCSAE standards at two separate, independent, NOCSAE-accredited test labs commissioned by the Company.

We apologize for the confusion and disruption cause by today's announcement. We know you have trusted Cascade and our products for more than 28 years and we will do everything in our power to ensure that trust remains for many years to come.

Thank you,

Cascade Lacrosse

or when the helet went to get recertified. because all school must send them out to get recert. they found issues.

I wonder how many PAl and rec leagues parents recert their helmets. I know soccer used to check shin guards at times I have yet to see a lax official ever ck to see if a helmet was certified.

football rec leaues send their helmets out. Why not Rec lax.

If they operate anything like UL listing it could be a number of things including not having the components that they had when they were certified. For example they went to a different vendor who doesn't have noscae certification. Could be as small as a chin strap button or rivet. Or a bigger component like the padding. They will go out and purchase a helmet and strip it down to exam it and make sure they stay in compliance after they get the certification

The Cascade R is about 5% of revenue for the parent company - PSG, which also makes the Bauer, Mission, Maverik, Inaria, Combat and Easton brands.

The ND041 standard which the R and Regulator did not meet has to do with performance testing. It may be a case of the helmets failing an impact test, improper fit, testing them without a NOCSEA certified face mask or just an improper label (although I suspect it's something more serious than an improper label).

http://nocsae.org/wp-content/files_mf/1348509399ND04111m12MfrdLacrosseHelmetsperfstd.pdf

Ironic how this de certification of the 2 most popular helmets coincides with the release of the STX/Schutt helmet roll out.

I received an email back from noscae very quick reply regarding the CPX-R model it stated that at this time it is not included in their decertification so anyone with that model is safe for the moment. The investigation is ongoing though.

The beautiful disaster for STX. That helmet is a great product. Quite honestly I don't know how this goes any other way than game, set match to STX and Under Armour if they can come into the helmet market without screwing it up.

Exactly. Might be a coincidence, but.....exactly how independent is the NOSCAE?

Yes, quite the coincidence to have this "disaster" fall into their lap.

Well, if I'm rolling out a new product, and I send the two most popular competing products, along with mine, for testing and the testing shows your new product meets or exceeds the standards and the other 2 were deficient somewhere, you bring it to their attention.
The CPX-R is good for now, but "under investigation". If they decertify the CPX-R too, that would be it.
I just hope STX is ready to scale to meet demand.

Does this have any effect on youth leagues or tournaments? I've seen kids play with those old buckets and sticks so pinched a ball barely goes In and nothing is said or done.

Yes, you bring along two popular competing products, which were already certified, to your independent product test and suddenly both competing products no longer meet certification. What are the chances?

d3o is the orange foam material going into the STX helmets. it is a well known material that goes into motorbike armour and some other applications, and is quite good. it is also a very expensive material and is only produced by d3o.

Cascade is in trouble...single product company. Warrior has other places to look for revenue in lacrosse and in ice hockey, but a debacle for them as well.

so if you are a Warrior sponsored team like Princeton, Duke or Denver, what helmet do you wear this season? an STX would be the ultimate insult to Warrior with the kind of cash they pour into sponsoring NCAA programs.

STX had Boys Latin test the new helmets last spring. Every single player that used one hated it. I hope they made some changes. They all felt like they were wearing a football helmet.

STX essentially "told" on Cascade and Warrior when they released their Stallion. See this, published just 3 weeks ago: http://laxallstars.com/stx-lacrosse-helmet/

When I went to return my R was told by retailer that the issue is with language in the paperwork that comes with the helmet when you purchase it and not with the helmet itself. Supposedly Cascade is actively lobbying NOCSAE to get this fixed. Not sure how accurate this is. As we are not playing this weekend will wait until next week to make a decision whether or not to exchange for older CPXR model which is a great lid.

Will not even consider the new STX helmet.

Also ironic that it coincides with the finish of the fall recruiting tournaments. Hmmmm.

It reads to me not that STX "told" on Cascade, but rather manipulated results for its own gain. Remember, STX commissioned the tests on the Cascade and Warrior helmets at an independent lab. How independent is it? I'm willing to bet not so much.

STX teamed up with Schutt in the development of this helmet. We've heard the games played in the football helmet business and how concussion information has been surpressed. STX/Schutt can keep their helmet as far as I'm concerned.

Can you please post a copy of that email response here? Or at the very least, the proper email address for NOCSEA that you received such a timely response. Thank you

...and "your helmet failed...but we are not releasing some of the test results on some of OUR helmets". Wonder why that is.
Article is a good read.
Think everyone just needs to take a breath here...

Initial reviews are not overly positive on the Stx helmet either. This site gives it a B- due to weight and visibility. I would like to see the weights of all these helmets shown in pounds and ounces.

http://inlacrossewetrust.com/stx-releases-football-helmet-for-lacrosse/

Thank you for this article. Whatever position or loyalty people have here, that article is fair and takes a grim position on STX's influences before the release of their helmet. On reflection I really am stunned if it is the case that Cascade and Warrior each have conducted contaminated quality testing, especially considering each use independent third party labs to do the ongoing testing of their products. Cascade has always been a very pro-active company on the safety front, and the article is fair to point out that Cascade originally FUNDED the NOCSAE study from which these standards are set. The Cascade R and the Warrior Regulator by their specs are certified conforming helmets. Neither is being made differently from the time they were originally tested to be certified.

So all in a day BOTH brands are running faulty quality testing at DIFFERENT independent labs (and in Cascade's instance two outside labs are used) and this SAME DAY is only days after STX/Shutt's flashy coming out? AND this SAME DAY is the start of the same week as the largest on-line retail week of the calendar year? I started thinking that once again the lacrosse brands have screwed up, and this negative press is well deserved. After reading that article I have a lot more restraint and am eyes wide open along with everyone else. What data were STX looking at, and what data were NOCSAE looking at and did this data conflict with other independent lab tests which passed the Cascade R and the Warrior Regulator? The consumer deserves to know. The FDA doesn't tell us a food is unsafe for no reason. NOCSAE needs to come out transparent on this now.

In other news, Lee Harvey Oswald killed Tupac. The Cubs just won their third World Series, and Ty Xanders is leaving lacrosse journalism to pursue a degree at Oxford on the Rhodes Scholarship.

Shades of WMDs in Iraq. We were told they were there. No pictures or physical evidence of them but they were supposed to be there. Hey STX, show us the data behind those flashy ads. They help your position, right?

Obviously this whole thing smells of politics. BTW if NOCSAE decertified these helmets after being used in competition for quite some time what does that say for their integrity. The STX helmet is crap and needs the competition to go away for it to sell. STAY AWAY FROM THE STX HELMET! It's been tested with seemingly varying results in the lab and field tested by players with horrible results. NOCSAE needs to hear from the lax community that we see through their BS scam with STX/SCHUTT! That's what it is and it can't go unanswered.

If anyone has an STX helmet, can you please weigh it and post that weight? I am curious how much heavier than the Cascade. If the STX is 30% or 50% better on impact protection but is heavier, I would tell my sons to get used to wearing a heavier helmet. I hate the trend of skimpier lacrosse gear in favor of fashion. You don't hear football players complaining their necks hurt from wearing a safe helmet. Lacrosse players can get used to a heavier helmet if it is safer.

Before saying that the STX helmet is crap, can we see what the safety data are? I am not on the STX side here and my kids have Cascade helmets, which we have always been brand loyal to despite the higher prices of their helmets because of safety. In just about every consumer product that says "we test better than them" you can see the data and the source. Why are we waiting days later for NOCSAE or these brands to flip their cards? Cascade should be in a white hot rush to publish and publicize the specifics of their test data from independent labs. This is life or death stuff for their company. Warrior too. Why does the cat have STX's tongue all of a sudden on what data they have as a comparative to the Cascade and Warrior helmets? Why not show that off now and dance on a grave? NOCSAE, this is creepy now. NO INFORMATION from them on the specifics as to why the helmets are no longer certified? No data, no detailed reasons, nothing.

What are lacrosse dads with three kids supposed to do now? Wait for a non specific time for all of this to vet out? Box for my boys starts next weekend. I get that STX would like for me to run out and spend $800 to helmet them up in their brand, but I would like to understand what this is all about first. At some level despite my loyalty to Cascade I am very disappointed that all we have heard is hold on tight while we work this thing out. Seems too close to an admission something is wrong with their product, which I hope is not the case.

So my kid sustained a head injury concussion while using the nocsae sanctioning bodies approval and they now say it isn't approved? hmmm sounds like a bigtime lawsuit

Sorry to nitpick on a good post, but football helmets are not safe. Lots of flap these days in the NFL about concussion issues and how negative helmet safety data has been suppressed by the league and helmet manufacturers. STX partnered with Schutt, a football helmet manufacturer, to make the new helmet. Connecting the dots, you might conclude that this whole corporate warfare episode was orchestrated by Schutt.

Lots of questionable credibility here on the part of STX, Schutt and the NOCSAE. Perhaps Jonathan Gruber is advising on this deal and thinks the lacrosse consumer is stupid.

Cascade and Warrior are in a tough spot and can't move alone in responding to the decertification. What they say, how they say and when they say can be a huge legal liability for them. Radio silence is probably their only choice right now.

STX's test results, which they commissioned, are here (note, its a large pdf, I wouldn't try to read it a smart phone):

http://www.stx.com/helmet/assets/pd...formational_Report_Web_Release_10714.pdf

In short, it isn't a technical issue, but one of a failing helmet (impacts too severe). That said, it could very well be that the Cascade and Warrior weren't fit properly or some other odd reason. I have an R and I bought for my son for Xmas. At least I can return his for a full refund if Cascade doesn't come through.