BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums MID-ATLANTIC LACROSSE MARYLAND FORUM Crabs Lacrosse / Baltimore Lacrosse Club

Maybe because their new website crabslax.com will be launching soon. Any other stupid questions?

Ok Ryan, calm down. Thanks for giving the push to have youth grade base teams in Balt. You exemplify everything that is wrong in youth sports by letting children play down.

Right. Ryan is the one pushing it. Don't mention that the girls teams have been grade based for years. Why do you think this is?? Couldn't be because the college coaches want it that way could it? This whole argument is stupid. My kids are on age. The older kids make mine work harder. In most cases it's the matter of a few months older. It's just an excuse. My kids go to BL while they had a 6th grade team, some of the other privates did not have age based teams. Therefore, they had to play against a lot of 8th graders. It certainly wasn't bad for them. Get over it.

That is misleading. Girls club lacrosse barely existed until 3-4 years ago, so when you mention that girls teams have been grade based for years that is correct. Most girls's lacrosse was school only and there was no club paradigm to point to.

Anyone know the details of the Crabs Nike deal from a parent or insider view? Is the stuff free, or is this a me too deal like the ones Warrior and Under Armour have been doing for club lacrosse teams for years. Those deals are get the stuff at wholesale and kick in some freebies for the coaches. Trilogy, LB3 and many other clubs have already done this, and if it is a discount deal expect there will be other regional Nike club lacrosse deals coming soon. If the Crabs deal really is a freebie for the teams like a college swag deal, that would be a really sweet Crabs deal. It is also good advertising for Nike to build consumer loyalty and also to take a tax write off to donate gear to a non-profit club team like Crabs.

NSLCA now being run by Corrigan Sports?

Good news for the Rough Riders.

I think Corrigan is just overseeing the tournaments, like they do for Gait, Under Armour, Stx, etc.

What is the difference between overseeing a tournament and running it? I didn't get the impression last year that the UA underclass tryouts had anything to do with UA save for the t-shirt for registering. Corrigan totally runs that and I think of it as a Corrigan event.

You may want to check the 2016 and 2017 Crab Teams

Nike deal is real for Crabs. Free stuff in return for wearing/using their gear everywhere.......UA wanted it, Nike stepped up first.

"NSCLA MISSION - NON-PROFIT DEDICATED TO THE LACROSSE COMMUNITY
Our mission is to provide a cooperative platform of scholastic age club lacrosse teams to engage in an elite level, spirited competition. It is our vision that this cooperation and association will help assure the quality of lacrosse tournaments in the US and Canada, while maintaining the highest level of play for our athletes."

According to their website they are currently sponsoring only two tournaments in 2015.

WARRIOR NSCLA NATIONAL CUP - contact lacrosse@corrigansports.com (roughriders)

WARRIOR NSCLA SELECT SHOWCASE - contact
crabslax@gmail.com (crabs)

FYI-
Ryan McClernan - NSCLA President - rdmcclernan@verizon.net

For what?

That is a real downer for UA as a home city company and also for Adrenaline which is run by ex-Crabs guys. Free stuff meaning free unis, or free stuff meaning free equipment and shoes too?

Who cares about Nike.

Nike = Stx?

Is Philly the new King of lacrosse?
Dukes commits like crazy

And the best tourneys???

I think Philly is just the best place on a map. The sport is not huge below NoVa yet, So Philly is just the right Drive for people to go North and South to get there for Tournaments. As for the players signing from there its the "eyes on " theory. If there is a couple studs that get the eyes looking the ones around the studs look better and benefit from being seen. This is why we all pay the money to play for the best teams. Because everyone knows the best players are not always who get the spots.

Ty Xanders
‏@Ty
A first for club ball: @CrabsLacrosse and @NikeLacrosse have finalized a deal for uniforms, apparel and equipment.

They may play the game well, but the support hasn't been there recently. They just lost the Wings and the Barrage left a while ago. The attendance at the MLL and NCAA championships 2 years ago was disappointing as well. How well do Villanova, St. joes, Drexell, and Penn draw?

You are full of it. College coaches aren't looking at 9,10,11,12,13,14 year olds. That is where youth lacrosse is. Grade base belongs at school teams and HS age based teams not youth under 15. The whole world doesnt revolve around the MIAA schools and all their precious holdbacks. And your idol Ryan was one of the biggest proponents of turning club YOUTH lacrosse into grade base teams. Crabs have the largest amount of holdbacks on their teams bar none. Anybody besides holdback teams,parents,coaches and their apologists like you know it is wrong at the youth level.

Of course college coaches aren't looking at U13 and younger. But the clubs want their teams to play together from a young age. Why do you think Hawks and other clubs have 2nd grade teams? All three of my kids go to private school and all are on age. Will I like it if one of them loses their spot to holdback eventually? Of course not. But that's part of the deal. That's why there are a lot of options out there. Crabs shouldn't apologize for what they do. That's the way the game is played. Should they tell the kids/parents that they can't play on their grades team? Crabs has some kids that are holdbacks that play on an older grade team also but that never gets mentioned. It all comes off as a bunch of whining. If your kid didn't make it go find somewhere else. There are lots of good options.

AMEN!

You are a apologist for cheating. This is not the way the game is supposed to be played. Ever heard of fairplay in youth sports? Letting select kids play down due to being held back at youth level is cheating. Holdbacks and reclassing kids has been going on in Maryland for more than the last two years. But some reason now it is needed. Crabs and all the other teams did fine for years without cheating at youth level. But now the apologists like you make up many reasons why we need it, coaches want it, Hawks do it, my kids can handle it, go somewhere else, etc,etc...In your book morals arent needed, just results..

So you tell me. Where should these kids play club lacrosse? Do you think if a holdback 8th grader went to Breakers or FCA they would be told they need to play up on the 9th grade team? Of course not. Crabs isn't allowing these kids to repeat grades or go to prefirst. The schools allow it and in the case of prefirst, promote it for kids with spring/summer birthdays. So Crabs needs to be the ones to stand up and say "No!!! We aren't taking these kids because they went to prefirst and they should be a grade higher." Get real. The fact is these kids want to play for crabs. If they all wanted to play for Breakers this conversation would be on their thread.

Prefirst, 8th grade or 9th grade is just a conversation about what school year these kids will be when they play on a middle or high school team.

Head out of sand for a moment please...why should club ball not be age based? There is no valid argument against it. College coaches don't really give a crap, they will still come to Crabfeast and the other recruiting tournaments and will be able to evaluate 16 or 14 year olds if they want, and then check on the school and school year the kid is in the tournament program.

This debate is so silly. Just go age based club tournaments and let the private school strategies play out for high school leagues. One can't make a rule for the other. The only argument to keep club teams grade based is to "hide" kids who have held back to make them show better. Forget the moralistic arguments and I just say that is a phony strategy that will fail over time. Pretty soon Petro and the others will realize that the 16 year old beating down on 14 year olds in 9th grade looks a lot less nifty when it is 19 year olds versus 17 year olds. It catches up to the staged kids.

[Yes, that thread that no one pays attention to (Breakers or Looney's or FCA(that's right they don't have a thread).. Well written and thought out. March on Crab Nation]

So you tell me. Where should these kids play club lacrosse? Do you think if a holdback 8th grader went to Breakers or FCA they would be told they need to play up on the 9th grade team? Of course not. Crabs isn't allowing these kids to repeat grades or go to prefirst. The schools allow it and in the case of prefirst, promote it for kids with spring/summer birthdays. So Crabs needs to be the ones to stand up and say "No!!! We aren't taking these kids because they went to prefirst and they should be a grade higher." Get real. The fact is these kids want to play for crabs. If they all wanted to play for Breakers this conversation would be on their thread. [/quote]

I'm a different poster. all clubs in Maryland including Crabs were age based until the past couple of years. Not a Crabs parent or fan but they were not the ones starting this. They may have fully embraced it but last year was the 1st year they had grade based youth and that was 2021 and 2020. Ironically the trend started up north with NY clubs and tournaments going grade. Not sure why they started doing so since they probably have less lacrosse playing holdbacks and have Dec school cutoff. The general argument is safety but the age based system has always been u11, u13, u15 - so you would have kids playing against each other with 2 year gap. Holdbacks in the age-based system got their advantage by being able to play 2 years of u15 while on age kids moved onto high school. I was not a fan initially of the grade based teams, leagues etc. But what I see is that most teams have a 3-4 holdbacks and the great percentage of them are born within a few months of the school cut-offs. These kids now become the oldest rather than the youngest in their grade, team, league etc so definite advantage to them. The ones who become further disadvantaged are the summer bdays who can't, won't get held back. My point to this response is that like or not grade-based keeps average ages closer together than 2 year age groupings. So until we go to u10,u11,u12....than all this is just hot air

Actually, college coaches do want it this way so that they know that everyone on the field is a 9th grader(for example). Girl's clubs have been setup this way for years for this reason.

My question is, why is Crabs made out to be the bad guys in this? People say they have the most holdbacks, but why is that? Is it because Crabs is the only club that allows them to play with their grade, or is it because the kids want to play for Crabs? You know what the answer to that is. This is why it comes off as complaining and whining. It's not cheating if that's the way the system is built. It's not like the other clubs don't have as many holdbacks because they chose not to. It's because Crabs gets first pick in most cases and those that don't make it go someplace else.

Thats the point. Tournaments are going 2019,2020,2021,2022 brackets to accommodate the grade based teams. It could have been U9,U10,U11,U12,U13, etc . Pretty simple and straightforward. Maryland Lacrosse at the youth club level is wrong, plain and simple. Club Soccer has a pretty simple concept in the Maryland . U8, U9,U10,U11, etc..with cards, Somehow this seems to work with the MIAA holdbacks . They all play where their age is,, not grade. The HS school teams(very good) and recruiters don't seem to have a problem, but somehow youth lacrosse needs grade base teams according to the apologists . This is mainly a private school thing that has taken over all club lacrosse to accommodate all these holdbacks that attend them.

So many complaints about grade based tournaments. Why don't all of the people that don't want to play in grade based tournaments just set up their own????? Most of the tournaments out there today did not exist even 2 years ago. Feel free, go set your own age based tournament with your rules and accept the teams you want to play!!!!! Simple.

tournaments are following how the clubs are set-up. Maryland clubs followed how the LI clubs are set-up. If we're talking about youth teams it's about fairness and safety. The bottom line is that league and tournaments that offer grade A & B divisions give many teams as chance to find competitive brackets for their skill levels. And the age variances are a smaller window on average than with traditional 2yr age brackets. If you're going to throw out 13 yr old 8th grader playing vs 16 yr holdback I've not seen it. That's a double holdback and I believe that would extremely rare and there should some limit on ages. I have summer, spring & fall bday kids. We're public so no holdback even if we wanted to. Not trying to justify going to this system or keeping kids back for sports. But now were in it I'm not seeing where the crises is and I think most others don't either - whether their kids were held back or not. Until the outrage is more than a vocal group on internet forums than trend towards grade will continue. Personally I agree that single age brackets are the best and fairest. But I like the grade brackets over the 2 yr age brackets

And if we're talking about 9th grade up and the kids can't compete with older kids, then they are not ready to be recruited or play varsity lacrosse

The only complaints are at the youth level not HS level mister simple. But it like looks you have the answer. Go set up a tournament.simple! .. Forget the fact that we are letting a select minority of children get an advantage at youth level. We want that advantage since we held our children back and deserve that advantage .

Last year several teams in Baltimore area had "holdbacks" on their teams. It was not that many. This year most club teams went grade base that had kids from MIAA schools. No all but most holdbacks are now playing down. I suspect except for a few Balt teams in each age group it will not make a big difference. But for these youth teams it will and that is the point. Why did youth Lacrosse need to start this trend of scewing the rules for the holdback children of MIAA ? They are the reason since all Maryland school ages align with USL ages of Aug 31. It is pure BS that these heldback children of the MIAA Private schools at the youth level get this advantage while all the public children born in summer months dont. Did Lacrosse decide to award MIAA schools special privileges that the rest of MD can not have. Even if it is one child getting a special advantage it is wrong.

Hawks 2018 had 5 older-birthday or "holdbacks" last year-same amount as Crabs.

Still could not beat them. Ha Ha-

Then a few joined them-LOL

tournaments are following how the clubs are set-up. Maryland clubs followed how the LI clubs are set-up. If we're talking about youth teams it's about fairness and safety. The bottom line is that league and tournaments that offer grade A & B divisions give many teams as chance to find competitive brackets for their skill levels. And the age variances are a smaller window on average than with traditional 2yr age brackets. If you're going to throw out 13 yr old 8th grader playing vs 16 yr holdback I've not seen it. That's a double holdback and I believe that would extremely rare and there should some limit on ages. I have summer, spring & fall bday kids. We're public so no holdback even if we wanted to. Not trying to justify going to this system or keeping kids back for sports. But now were in it I'm not seeing where the crises is and I think most others don't either - whether their kids were held back or not. Until the outrage is more than a vocal group on internet forums than trend towards grade will continue. Personally I agree that single age brackets are the best and fairest. But I like the grade brackets over the 2 yr age brackets

And if we're talking about 9th grade up and the kids can't compete with older kids, then they are not ready to be recruited or play varsity lacrosse [/quote]

My understanding of LI going grade base teams is due to Dec 1 school start date and USL Aug 31 age start date. Md school start date is the same as USL Aug 31. I may be wrong but it seems like LI going grade base gives them a DISADVANTAGE as the oldest child is DEC 1 birthday while Maryland oldest age base would be Sept 1. MD kids could be 3 months older ,,is this right?? With a few holdbacks on a MD grade base team vs grade base LI team this would even be more advantage for MD, 6 months plus older kids. Please chime in if I have this wrong.

Crab apologists note that Crabs are heart of the problem. They encourage and recommend repeating eighth grade, or holding back. This Fall, 2019 team cut half team to make room for 7-8 holdback kids. Wonder how those kids that got cut feel about holdbacks? Do they now chase 2020 spot as a holdback?

This practice gives justification to Edge playing entire team down a grade since they might PG. It makes a mockery of these tournaments.

Yes, I have seen 13 yo compete against 16 yo this Fall at Autumn Classic when Edge played. Pre first and reclass happens more than you think too.

[quote=Anonymous]Hawks 2018 had 5 older-birthday or "holdbacks" last year-same amount as Crabs.

Still could not beat them. Ha Ha-

Then a few joined them-LOL

pretty sure hawks only had four, one of the bethesda area teams had 7 and madlax had 6, so it's not strictly a crabs thing, i have had two sons play in the npyll who were not heldback, most people in this area have moved on and don't whine about it everyday

My understanding of LI going grade base teams is due to Dec 1 school start date and USL Aug 31 age start date. Md school start date is the same as USL Aug 31. I may be wrong but it seems like LI going grade base gives them a DISADVANTAGE as the oldest child is DEC 1 birthday while Maryland oldest age base would be Sept 1. MD kids could be 3 months older ,,is this right?? With a few holdbacks on a MD grade base team vs grade base LI team this would even be more advantage for MD, 6 months plus older kids. Please chime in if I have this wrong. [/quote]

I don't think you have that last part wrong. Picking over kids being 3 months older is moot, but consider that with a Sept 1st trigger a MD holdback kid can be closer to two years older than one over a younger natural aged LI kid in his grade. You also noted that in public schools you can't go in for repeating grades for sports, so that means doing it is an investment in private school tuitions starting at 8th or 9th grade. Let's not waste time, nobody is repeating 10th or 11th grade for lacrosse reasons after most ships have sailed. So the holdback "advantage" is one obtainable only by wealthy kids. Prep schools love that because it is good for business. The MIAA and IAC schools didn't have 12.6 scholarships like it is a college and most of those places run over $30K a year. I maintain that is fine for HS play, but if you look at much larger more established sports like soccer it is age based all the way through for non-school. There are over 200 D1 scholarship soccer programs and over 150 D2 scholarship programs in soccer and that sport is not crying for reforms. Its fair and it works.

It is a cop out to say "well, go do your own age based club tournaments then" to parents of kids not advantaged by this system. How? Start another unhappy Daddy lacrosse club and hope people join in? There is no such thing as a recreation or club league in MD that has age based club events. If you have not seen a 13 year old get plowed by a 15 or 16 year old, then you weren't at any Hogan or Madlax tournaments this fall. We had one kid knocked out cold by a knee to the head at the faceoff X. There was nothing dirty at all about the play, but the injury was definitely exacerbated by the fact that this was a tiny 12 year old 7th grader playing on a 7th/8th team playing against a 6 foot and heavy muscled 8th grader who was obviously a holdback. That is one thing your analysis missed somewhat, which two-year age groups you don't have a chance of seeing a 12 year old out there with 15 year holds. With grade based blend teams -- 7th and 8th grade throw togethers where they have a "B" team with kids off the "A" grade based teams or have talented 7th graders playing up -- you will literally see it every day at tournaments in Maryland. This tiny 7th grader was on this team I noted because the coaches wanted to play him up to get him ready for playing up next summer at recruiting tournaments. Think about that, a 12 year old 7th grader was out there with the enthusiastic consent of the club and his parents and then this...a very serious concussion where he stays out of school lies in bed in the dark for 2 weeks.

It just isn't worth it. But hey, let's wait for the big one, right? We're all tough lacrosse parents. A tragedy on the field with a middle school kid. Lawyer up Ryan, when that comes around you will be one who well deserves the blame and I for one will be glad to see an outcome where you are held accountable.

(1) I thought Hogan tournaments enforced age rules, although they are adding 2024, 2022 and 2020 divisions this year where presumably older kids can play with their actual grade. Is this not correct? Important to me as I plan our team's schedule this Summer.

(2) Like others have posted, single year divisions with some holdbacks still seems better than double-year age divisions. Still, 6 months matters competitively. What I ask is that tournaments clearly lay out their age and grade rules and then follow them.

(3) While a lot of BOTC posters essentially say "toughen up" when someone voices safety concerns, I'll bet none of those posters are parents or coaches with sons or players who have had concussions. It's very serious, very scary and can end an athletic career. Your son can get a concussion sledding or roughhousing with his brother - you can't bubble wrap your kid - but you can take a break from tackle football and try to make sure your son plays lacrosse against kids his own age to mitigate risk. It's BS when you try to do that only to have teams play down or tournaments not follow their own age rules.

pretty sure hawks only had four, one of the bethesda area teams had 7 and madlax had 6, so it's not strictly a crabs thing, i have had two sons play in the npyll who were not heldback, most people in this area have moved on and don't whine about it everyday

Convenient, if it was true, but it is not even close to reality. Would make Crabs seem almost normal. Make stuff up much? Crabs are the heart of the reclass issue, and it's not normal.

Crabs and Hawks over ruled other members and voted to take NPYLL grade based. They did it to protect themselves, and maintain recruiting edge.

That's a fact!

We were at a fall Hogan tournament which filled out a division with 7th/8th grade combined teams in with 8th grade teams. Hogan tournaments have no age rules to enforce when there are grade based teams. That is the whole point to the comment.

I have a different definition of tough. Aspire to be better than kids your age. The aspire to be good enough to play varsity as a 14 turning 15 year old 9th grader. Kids who do that can respect themselves and feel great about their accomplishments without asterisks. The holdback trend is a continuance of the participation trophy generation families that aged out of their U-11 glory days. At this rate, their self esteem won't be able to handle anything as adults.