BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums NORTHEAST LACROSSE BOTC MAIN FORUM (LI, CT, WC) Age Verification

Father of the 2020 soon-to-be 2021 hold back is here again...to be clear, my son is an A-A+ student so no academic issues and is a solid A-A+ player. Since US Lacrosse allows it, we are simply holding him back a year to give him yet another advantage, it's legal/within the rules, so what's the problem. Last piece of information for you all - I make a ton of money, so don't need scholarship $$$, this is all about putting my son in the best position possible so he can be the best under US Lacrosse rules. You only live once people...

So I take it your child is in 5th-6th grade. With my children now playing in high school and still being a coach, just hope junior continues to grow and continues to be quick. I've seen many little superstars fade by the time their in high school.

I would do it if I could, can't afford it. My sons are both great players and will probably play in college, but as parents we want to put our kids in the best possible position. Only thing not fair is that it comes down to $$$

So holding him back, like being left back, like the special kids? Here's a news flash if you are good enough, everyone can play in college especially if you have tons of money. So hold him back like the special kids so he can be a stronger lacrosse player. You my friend are what is wrong with todays parents of an athletes. When he blows his knee out or decides he doesn't want to play in school then what. Its the kids life, not yours. WHAT A TOOL OF A PARENT! I look forward to him coaching my grandkids as a Express summer coach making a few pennies 15 years from now. (something tells me the original email is probably a joke, but with todays parents you never know.)

Lets try to get back to a productive thread. Whether or not the community believes in the tactics of a particular poster is not relevant. This attitude to look for loop holes within rules is what we are looking for USLacrosse, the Club Administrators and Tournament Organizers to address. Either embrace a single "U" age system or enforce the "original" graduation year of the players.

even if USL puts a system in place for ID's and even if they only sanction tourneys that are age based it will still not make a difference, there is nothing that says a tournament will have to be or want to be USL sanctioned event and nothing that will force them. Any decent recruiting tournament will always be grade based because that is what the college recruiters want to see 2017's v 2017's.

My son is a 2018 and was born in 2000 (correct birth year for grade) and plays on a competitive summer team, I would never join a team that was age based and only went to age based tournaments - I want him playing against 2018's regardless of age because that is who is competing against for a college roster spot.

When all is said and done nobody cares who wins a tournament and it is not about the competition it is about improving as a player and getting into a better scholastic college then you could have without lacrosse.

Work on an academic scholarship. More of them, so odds are better if the child is a A, A+ sturdent

Well said.

Once the kids are in high school, I age that the grade level works fine. You have kids fighting for jv and varsity spots in high school and the only time something is a little off is a kid there past his true senior year. However, for kids truely 8th grade or younger, the parents need to focus on creating a fair competitive environment by playing based on age. If a kid wants to play up - fine, let him challenge himself, but playing down though any loopholes or hold backs or other method is wrong and against the spirit of fair play. If your kid wants to dominate his age group, tell him to practice and hit the wall, don't have him play down.

So if my son was born on August 15, 2002 and is in 6th grade this year (2020), and one of his friends was born on August 8th of the same year but his parents started him late in school such that he plays with the 2021, do you see a problem with this scenario?

The issue isn't one or two kids but a team (or core of a team) made up of those kids.

The rule in NY by most accounts is Nov , US lacrosse has Sept. There will always be older and younger (Aug 31st vs Sept 1 of the same year) and there will always be those that are close to the cutoff (Aug 1st) that feel shortchanged or will bend the rules to benefit themselves (Sept 15th).

To me if your kid is born prior to Nov you should be in the grade with kids born the same year as you. But that is me. If you are held or left back you do play with your grade. If you feel better with you older kid beating up on younger kids so be it. Why wouldn't you play him up with his age until HS, then let him shine in HS when he is the oldest boy who played a tougher youth experience.

Work on an academic scholarship. More of them, so odds are better if the child is a A, A+ sturdent

Completely agree. Long term academics are infinitely more important than lax skills...

I was a Dec birthdate I was always the youngest to do everything, at times they tried to prevent me from "playing up" which was playing with my grade because of my birth month/age. Fortunately my folks were smart enough to say "those are the boys in his grade... Look at his skills look at his size... play my son with is friends in his grade... it is not fair to the boys a year younger..." I look at my folks; they had integrity.

I was fortunate to attend some competitive sports camps and in a particular camp competed against guys from Maslin Ohio. As a soph in HS, I was competing against boys the same age as Sr's in my school. It didn't bother me because i wanted to play Varisty. What I didn't realize till much later was it happened everywhere, they held back kids in 5/6 grade just to play Football. I thought it was something that just happened at that particular school or in that area. I thought it was funny.

I also played college sports, that is where I thought the age difference was amazing. I was at a distinct disadvantage. Playing football with boys from Texas and Penn puts you at a distinct disadvantage. They were always a year older than most and close to 2 years older from me. Playing with boys from NYC was also scary (They were legitimate Left backs). I was a 17year freshman competing against 19/20 year old freshman (fall not spring sport there was no turning or just turned you are what you are). A very scary scene. Going in I knew if I wanted to play Id have to beat out 20 year olds I just thought they'd be upper classmen, I didn't think I'd be competing against these older Texas boys every year the rest of my college career. (yes Soph and Jr year most freshman were older than me)

In that same time period, this was not happening in Lacrosse. The older boys in lacrosse were those that went to "Prep school" for a year. They went there to get college ready. I see the current climate of lacrosse changed to what I witnessed in the 80's of Football and the bigger money sports. If the colleges didn't do anything (between then and now) to change the rules I don't think it will stop instead I think it will just gain traction in lacrosse.

If your son us born within a month of the cutoff and is small for his age, the league should approve a waiver, especially if he was born premature. But let the league decide.

December 1 is the guideline in NYS to start school. If a child is born before that he should go to Kindergarten by NYS standards. If you want youth sports safe (like football, soccer, baseball, etc.) you play AGE. When the kid gets to HS then you can go to grad year because the colleges want to know when they graduate. It's easy, safety for youth and graduating year for HS

What is the cut off for Maryland. My daughter played a MD team this weekend and the girls on average were a 1/2 head taller than all of our girls.

Maryland's cutoff for school grades is 9/1. The same cutoff suggested by USL.

But you can't prove a grade. So when someone is held they are older but in the grade younger.

How about a system similar to youth football, soccer, and baseball. Every youth player has a registration card. Birthdate has been verified by presentation of a birth certificate. Play by age.

Needs to be age delimited (U) with ID cards. Pick a date that most can agree on and roll with it. Say Sep 30 - give the parents of kids with Oct and Nov birthdays the option of playing "Up" with the friends/schoolmates if in a school that goes till Dec 1. Playing up is not a problem, it playing down that people have an issue with and with grade based systems, there is too many variables to skirt the system.

I reached out to U.S. Lacrosse (www.uslacrosse.org) on the subject of single year age guidelines. I was pleasantly surprised by the timeliness of their responses and their readiness to engage on this topic. It was quite apparent that this is a subject that is very much on their radar. Below are the responses I received to my email questions (which I removed to keep this post somewhat concise). Most importantly, the last paragraph highlights how you can reach out to USL and voice your point of view. If this issue is really that important to you, then take a few minutes to have your opinion count.

From U.S. Lacrosse

I appreciate your email and the concern about age eligibility. The age vs. grade has been a big debate and huge issue of contention for many areas. US Lacrosse has been fervent in their support of an age based system. I can tell you personally, that US Lacrosse has not been silent on this topic.

US Lacrosse spends hundreds of thousands annually in health and safety research, and coached and officials education. Additionally, we review the rules we put forth each year and have pushed those rules and recommendations to groups, leagues and events. It is at events we see the largest age discrepancies, we unfortunately do not have any oversight of those events unless they are run by US Lacrosse.

While we set forth best practices annually, many tournament directors either choose to not adopt or enforce our recommendations. Furthermore, many of these directors turn their head once the check has cleared. This doesn’t provide the best experience for any individual whether it be a participant, coach, official or parent.

US lacrosse has been proactive in ensuring the best experience for everyone in the game. Our membership department is testing an age verification product this summer, with a larger deployment next summer. Our Gold Stick program, identifies leagues who use the best practices and rules of US Lacrosse. In the summer of 2015, we plan to have a Gold Stick Tournament sanctioning model in place, I suggest you attend these tournaments and events. Finally, work with your fellow parents and coaches to choose tournaments that offer USL certified officials and US Lacrosse Rules.

There is risk related to every sport, and to each time an individual steps onto a lacrosse field. US Lacrosse has advocated for no more than 24 months in age difference between youngest and oldest player for the fact that many developing areas cannot field a full team at one age. We will continue to evaluate our age grouping and engage individuals like yourself for their insight as we move forward.

To give you some history to this, the age groups came out of the high school structure, where the age difference can be anywhere from between one and five years. The move by the organization was to reduce it to less than twenty four months to create a safe, equitable, enjoyable, and level playing field.

Going forward this may be reduced to a year, but in 2014 the age guidelines will remain the same. As I’ve mentioned earlier, we review this every year. I encourage you to complete our rules survey and even submit a rule change, both of these can be found on the following webpage:
http://www.uslacrosse.org/rules/boys-rules.aspx
The deadline states May 20,014, but it can be considered for next year and can be used as a reference point in meetings going forward. Since the age guidelines are not a rule, just write “Age & Eligibility Guidelines” where it asks for rule name. Use the number 1 for page, section and article.

Glad to hear some truth on this matter.

Nice response from USLacrosse, I unfortunately did not receive anything from my inquiry. But I am happy to see their response none the less. I would hope the Gold Stick standards are publicized before try-out season!

This should put a rest to majority of complaints there are on this subject. It will be up to us as parents to "push" the travels clubs in choosing a Gold Stick tourney.

That is why team long island has gone to age vs grade because it doesn't allow the teams to cheat by using overage kids and the playing field is fair and less chance for injury. The problem is the other organizations are profit based and they care about the check and not the safety of the player

For grade based, We are seeing a problem with teams without red shirts outright lying about grade, just so they can keep the older kids on the team and level the playing field. They are younger age divisions and maybe the kids are planning on repeating 8th grade so the graduation year isn't really a lie.

Any inquires can be submitted to Boys Youth Rules <boysyouthrules@uslacrosse.org>

Received a similar response from US Lacrosse but they do have control if they want it. Several of the tournament providers known for not verifying ages and turning their backs on teams that are known offenders of loading teams with kids outside of even the two year span, are using US Lacrosse insurance and they should not be allowed to use the insurance if they are not willing to collect birth certificates and report cards similar to the structure used by AAU for basketball and other sports. This is not rocket science - other supervisory athletic organizations do it and we deserve better for our kids. $25-35 a year and they are not requiring even those tournaments requiring US Lacrosse membership #s for registration and who are using their blanket insurance (that we pay for) to institute guidelines. Gold Stick is a step in the right direction but it is voluntary. Kudos to the Dicks NDP tournies for stepping up to require birth certificates this year and keeping them on file for future years! Please send a message by encouraging your clubs to walk away from events that do not require proof of age.

We were at Sweetlaxin tourney this weekend, in our grade based bracket there were 2 teams that went undefeated. I inquired why there was not a play off between these 2 teams. The staff member told me that they found out that one of the undefeated teams had 11 6th graders playing on a 5th grade based team. They were removed from the playoff contention. USLacrosse based tournament, nuff said....

Shameful and the kids deserve so much more from US Lacrosse. Time for US Lacrosse to actually provide a service for the fees they are charging each player. Keep the magazine and actually institute requirements designed to protect kids from teams not following age and/or grade guidelines. And sanction the coaches and clubs that are found to be in violation - send a message before someone gets hurt.

At least something was done unlike the un sanctioned tournaments. How many more times do I have to see kids my size claiming to be in grade school. Why is it there is no age verification?

And Gongas tried to turn Suffolk PAL into age and got voted down by the other town reps. If you voted against and your a town PAL rep. Shame on you.

Team LI does not go age based! What a bogus selfs erring lie. I saw players on their U13 team who just finished up 8th grade. And lets not say they all have "magic birthdays" because I know these kids and know for a fact they do not.

What grade a child is in has little relation to what AGE he is. ALL of the boys on this team qualify for U13 by US Lacrosse rules. The boys who just finished 8th were all born in the 4th quarter of 2000. If you know the kids, as you say, then you are a deluded liar to claim anything else. Again AGE, not GRADE is what matters for a U based team.

When a child is held back, or repeats a grade, he does not become younger. You have magically changed his projected graduation date specifically to make him eligible to play with and against younger kids. You didn't make him younger

ok Mr know it all!You are not too swift are you? U-13= born 9/1/2000 or later! Kids who have bithdates in 2000 are SUPPOSED to be in 8th grade going into 9th. btw they played in the 2018 (rising 9th ) anyway because they are not allowed to play against the OLDER 7th graders (born before 9/1/2000). you are comical!

Yeah, nothing wrong with playing a kid who is age eligible who is in the higher grade. In fact, as that is the opposite of people holding back their kid for athletic reasons, perhaps it is laudable. Of course, if mature enough, he might want to play up to be with this friends, but that is their choice.

I want to vent for a moment. I was in a U11A division early this month in a big tournament under U.S. Lacrosse age rules. The tournament director let a U13B team play in our division, because they were missing half their kids and pulled up some U11 kids . I emailed the fact it was a U13 team to tournament director well in advance, but since I was not scheduled to play them, I did not make a bigger issue of it. It was frightening to watch the difference in size between some of those U13's and the U11's they played (7th grade D vs 4th grade A!), particularly as some of tournament refs still thought bodychecking is allowed at U11 as long as the player takes less than 3 steps (one cited that to me as a U.S. lacrosse rule). Anyway, to add ironic insult to (thank god no) injury and to stray a bit off topic, the director's U11 team beat my team pretty bad in pool play but we earned a rematch in the championship and got up on their (admittedly better) team in the first half and the tournament director came over to our sideline in the middle of the game and in front of the kids and accused our team of adding (presumably U13) new players or else how could we get up on his program's team? Huge distraction and other team went on 4-goal run before he calmed down and believed we had the same kids and we coaches were allowed to coach again. True story. Too bad he only cared about age rules when his team was losing. We are going to be pickier with our tournaments next year, for sure.

TOO MUCH MONEY INVOLVED FOR ANYONE TO CHANGE, SORRY

can you tell us what tournament this was, so everyone knows to steer clear

Wonder if it is the same tournament that let rising Freshman play rising 7th graders in the equivalent of the U13 B Division - the size differential was huge, kids got hurt and several teams asked for the roster to be reviewed - the size difference was that big. Men playing boys. It was the Hogan Summer EXposure tournament which required US Lacrosse ids to play so probably using their insurance yet the kids were not protected. We will stay clear of that promoters tournaments in the future.

It wasn't Hogan's and my impression having played in their tournaments twice is that they were one of the good guys. In fact, I was going to replace this big Southern tournament with Summer Exposure for our multiple travel teams. I think it is tremendously important for age rules to be respected. I mean it's kids we are talking about.

Boys between the ages of 8 and 15 are growing and gaining weight as fast as they ever will in their life.

On average, they grow 2.4" a year and gain 10 pounds a year. So in a two year per division system, the youngest average kid (e.g. born 8/31/2002) will be 20 pounds lighter and 4.8" shorter than the oldest average kid (e.g. born 9/1/2001).

If you have an old 1year holdback (reclass born 9/1/2000), that kid on average will be 30 pounds heavier and 7.3" taller than the youngest in that 2 year division. That is huge difference especially at the 8-9 year old range.

Of course every kid is different and these are just averages, but you can see why for the fairest and safest games, the leagues should really limit the age differences - especially from 8-15 years old.

As a parent who has witnessed larger kids breaking smaller kids bones on more than 1 occasion and also seen multiple concussions induced by the larger kids in the U9 and U11 ages brackets, I feel we should work towards enforcing a single year division system with age (not grade) cut offs until the kids are 15 or 16.

Age / Weight/ Height data:
https://edc2.healthtap.com/ht-stagi...ri20121213-30526-1i4c4nq.jpeg?1386569716