BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums NORTHEAST LACROSSE BOTC MAIN FORUM (LI, CT, WC) Long Island Express Lacrosse

Fascinating stuff. However, while some of the posts still seem to have sentiment in the way this team was created it is what it is. I don't get the sense that anyone is criticizing the players or their commitment (if they are they should be ashamed), but rather what is not being said and that is the scores. Has anyone taken note? I think we should ask the parents of this team to voice their opinion on this. Are the scores we are hearing true? 25-0 etc? Worse? Even if you move players around it seems to be a little over the top? Hopefully some parents of this team will weigh in and tell us why this is a good thing. Any parents happy with the coach for running up the score? Or questioning if they want to be apart of that? Any of the parents concerned about retaliation/safety - while completely unacceptable,you never know. Hopefully some of the parents will post.

Fourth, Which really should be number one! Someone needs to come up with a governing system with regard to age. Most of these top super teams are littered with kids playing down a year. Look at the top 2018 teams right now (Express & 91). Many, but not all the top tier kids should be, by age, in 7th grade. It's just a fact. It's been going on in this sport for years. In soccer, they have validated the kids age. Older kids play up, regardless of thier "grade"! You get caught cheating the system your club is banned. It's the only way we're going to level the playing field.

There were no 25 - 0 scores. Yes there were multiple double digit wins in all games at Hofstra. I do not believe the kids were told to run up the score, but after running your motion offense, sometimes you have to let a shot go. The kids themselves were not firing away at the opposing goalie, many shots were on stick and still went in. All games were started with the intent to play aggressively.
Yes I have a son on this team. He left the field commenting that he wishes the games were better, not boring. But as many previous posts noted, fall ball is what it is. It is a time to work on some chemistry and introduce new plays and adjust lines. I do not condone in any manner anyone thumping their chests over scores in these games. That is ridiculous and apparently many are living thru their sons and this teams success. Retaliation can happen, hopefully it won't. That is something that all parents should address with their boys. No team wins all the time. This group is talented and well coached. Nobody can predict what the future holds. Hopefully alot of fun and it ends where these boys want it to end up and not anyone else.

Outside observation (no son even playing). I see that as a parent, I would be proud to have a son selected as an elite player and chosen for this team. But the beat downs are embarrassing to the team, I would be ashamed of my kid scoring the 20th, 21st, 22nd etc... goal in one of these games. The coaches are ultimately to blame, just horrible job of sportsmanship. This reminds me of the girls high school basketball game that was all over the news a couple years ago (100 to 0). Except this may be worse because they did it game after game... what a joke.

BOTC agrees that a US Lacrosse (or other organization) Player Photo-ID and Pass System which clearly identifies the player age and associates that player with a specific club for the duration of the playing season would be a major step forward. This would be an absolute requirement for the proper formation of a premier elite league as discussed.

You are DEAD ON!! I agree bigtime!My son either plays his age or "up". Youth (travel) Baseball & Youth Football...good luck cheating with them in regards to having a kid play that is OLDER or doesnt have a proper birth certificate!

I am the parent that wrote about the Dowling tournament and this team is not the Express Orange (Baracudas). It was a team put together of kids that wanted to keep the stick in their hands in the fall. My son got on the team because of kids that he knows from camps and other travel teams. Many of them also play football and soccer and we fluctuate between 12 and 14 kids making the games because of the other sports. In the Dowling tournament the scores were that high for this team and they really tried to slow it down. I can not speak for the Express and their scores. In fact this tournament only allowed the first faceoff and then it was cleared from the scored on goal. So it wasn't that are faceoff kid was incredible and we won the faceoff everytime it was just really talented kids that wanted to play lacrosse. If the competition is not there and you try to slow it down what else do you do ? Tell them not to score anymore. The kids came to play. As someone else said a lot of kids are not playing right now because of other sports. My son plays middle school soccer, travel soccer and this lacrosse team. Not to mention that he practices every Saturday with his travel lacrosse team. We often race from the Sunday lacrosse game to his travel soccer game. As for this team they are just playing together in the fall so we will not know what would happen in the spring or summer. Most of them are going back to their original travel teams. We are at least getting good games at Farmingdale. Once the spring and summer games come I think you will see the Express Orange will have more competition. You can not tell me that there are only 22 kids on Long Island that are talented lacrosse players. I have been watching my son play lacrosse for eight years and have watched a lot of games and I can tell you there are a lot of talented kids out there. That is why some parents are getting nuts worrying that their kid will not get a scholorship. Let's not forget their grades !!! You can be the best lacrosse player on Long Island, but if your academics are in the tank you are not going anywhere. Except for a few people who is making $$$ in lacrosse once they are out of college ??

But there was another Express team in the same division. Looks like they were running away from a tougher division so they could post a "Champion" label on the website. Seems kind of weak to us here in MD.

I agree !! My son plays soccer and you have to provide proof of age and photo to the soccer club. Before everygame the ref's check every Photo-ID. I know of several kids that are playing down in lacrosse. The parents should be ashamed of themselves. I know of a couple of (sports) parents that actually held their kid back starting school so they would have an edge. It happens in all sports except soccer. My son also wrestles and I can not tell you how many times my son wrestled a kid that was his weight, but clearly had man muscles and found out later that he was a year or more older then my son.

My son does not play for the Express, but he knows a lot of the players and they have two AA teams and an A team in the 2016 division. So I do not think they were running away from anything. We have a lot of talent on Long Island and I am sure you do in Maryland. So let's leave it at that.

The tournaments normally govern the age, I can tell you my son who is a sept birthday and started school early plays on a 2017 team but is the same age as boys on the 2018 team you mention

When a tournament is age based, he plays on the team, when its grade based, they do not allow him to play so I know for a fact at least one of the teams you mentioned here is following the tournament/league rules for age and not stacking teams.

great post and on behalf of this express - parent, thank you, some of us "get it"

unfortunately not every team or club plays by the rules 100% of the time. We played in a tournament last year and there was a club from Florida that had 2 or 3 older kids on each team. Our U15 coach thought something was up, but when they were at Subway having lunch they saw 2 of the kids they just played get into their own car and drive off. He made an official complaint and the tournament director investigated and found that this club had older kids on everyone of their teams. The entire club was thrown out of the tournament. Unfortunately for my sons U13 team we did not find out until we had already left the tournament. The director wanted us to come back, but we were to far away. I will never understand why anyone would want to win this way. If you need a trophy that bad you can go online and buy one.

No matter where you go, there always seems to be a team or two who blatently has older kids on their teams. Don't know what team you're referring to but, I know my son's team doesn't do it.

It's not about the trophy, it's about the picture for the website.

Yes, great post,but could you clarify further? You mentioned in your post you did not think the players were told to run up the score. Were they told to not score? Letting the shot go? You can still run plays, develop chemistry, etc and still not embarass a lesser opponent I would think? I'm sure the coaching is going all out for this group on the x's and o's side but do the coaches really "get it"? Would be curious to hear from other parents of players on this team to see if they are somewhat concerned about what lessons are being taught. I realize that side of it may not be part of the ciriculum, but just wondering what some of the other players parents think?

Good push bak to my previous post. I can not answer if the players were told not to shoot. I will ask my son what was being said during and after the games. From my perspective only, the intensity had dropped as the coaches saw the level of competition. I do not personally believe the coaches get any great thrill out of embarrassing another team.

You mean like in the last 20 minutes of the games when they played "keep away" from the other team by not shooting? It was bad to watch. Fall ball is not really competition time so things like this happen. I think it hurt more to the kids and parents, thank god the refs ran the clock off like the last 15 minutes became 5 minutes

Here is the bottom line. These organizations know that there is a better chance of players returning if they win games. I was at a local tournament last summer in in a U-13 division (11 and 12 year olds) played a team of 14 year olds. The attackmen came up to the defensemen's waists. Not only did they get beat up physically, but the score was very crooked. The coach told me after the game that his team was 2-10 last year and 14-2 this year. I'm sure his team had a wonderful time and they all are looking to come back. That U-13 team has been disbanded. This has historically been a problem. Either playing in the wrong age bracket or wrong skill bracket. Ever hear let's have some success and go in the C bracket? By the way, this was not an Express team, but making the point about the emphasis on winning (and by how many goals) at all costs.

Very true

my son played on a hockey team that lost a game 20 - 0, there were very strong words and a near fight with coaches and parents after the game, the two teams played 3 weeks later and the other team scored in the first minute of the game and then played keep away for almost three full periods, kids would go in on breakaways and then just stop and give us the puck. trust me the 1-0 loss was a far greater and intended humiliation then the 20 - 0 game. The only thing you can do is split the teams up and play a pick up game but I don't see that ever happening.

I don't understand what the whining about running up the score is all about. These are 8th graders, not 4th graders. Next year they will be playing JV. They are young adults now and are past the age of "a trophy for everybody" and needing to be be sheltered and coddled from the lessons of a big setback in an athletic competition. A good a@@ kickin' has good lessons too and its not the end of the world! The kids and especially parents of the other teams need to "buck up"!

How about the coaches get together and swap some pinnies and scrimmage together??? I know fl$ did that at the Crimson tournament a couple of years ago. A great example of good sportsmanship.

Folks. Focus here, there is no sportsmanship in business. Its kill or be killed. Your children are playing for a company, where grown men make a living, pay their mortgages with, and pay thier kids college tuitions with. It's not PAL with a bunch of Dad's coaching. I'm not saying that playing for one of the big teams is a bad thing, but you have to understand the underlying forces at play here. "Nothing personal, it's just business"
If you start to look at things in this manner, you will understand why things are the way they are.
Again, I'm not bashing any club (business) here, it is just the reality of the situation.

Your statement is the exact reason the team is getting such a bad reputation.

Kill or be killed? Underlying forces at play? Really?

I don't think anyone enjoys completely blowing out an obviously less competitive team. This does not happen at the more established tournaments. I bet next year this same tournament will be more competitive as Fall Ball grows legs.

As for focus - Good will is good PR which is certainly good business. Businesses thrive on being able to recognize the situation they're in and then capitalize on it. Pounding a weaker team into the ground has no benefits.

We were not even "killing" the other team- I think it was 6-1 at the time and our hockey coach took all his defense and made the offensive lines and vice versa- the only thing that did not change- the goalie stayed put. These were 8-9 yr olds. The coach told them after they learned more about themselves and their skills from this game by playing other positions then they would have by running up the score against this team. This was a league game. I thought the coach handled it pretty well and while the score remained pretty much the same- we did not score either. I thought this was a great lesson for all and no one was humiliated. if the real competition is in the Spring summer league- why not change things up- let someone play goalie that is not usually in the goal, let an attackman handle a long stick... no need for a 20-0 game, regardless if it is a business or not- if they had a large lead they would have kept it if the players are all talented and it may have evened out the playing field just a bit, or maybe not- but at least they tried.

A slice of humble pie? Never a bad thing. But, 10-0 is a but kicking, 15-0 is absurd, 20+ or worse?? Not sure when "class" went out of style.

Once again, you're confusing sport with business. The dominate business in any market draws the most customers..... and crush the competition.
Ever heard of Apple, JnJ, etc...
Biggest and the best just seem to get the most customers, nothing different here. Just on a smaller scale. Don't get upset about it, recognize what you're dealing with. Again, not a bad thing. Just what it is.
Look, on the flip side, these teams help a lot of kids to get better at the game. I'm not saying they don't. If you allow yourself to understand the bigger picture, all this stuff won't bother you. You can just accept it for what it is and focus on improving you're son's game. My kids have been doing this travel thing for years. I can't tell you the score one game from last summer, or four summers ago, nor could any of my kids.
I can tell you they are better lacrosse players!

We should rename this post express bashing. There is never any positive that they have good teams, Good coaching and some really good players. Express had huge turn outs for tryouts at all ages. They will keep practicing all year to improve. Come the summer these kids will have been together for months. If other teams and organizations don't do the same that is their loss. Express players also play many sports but put in the time. Why don't you guys go to your teams post and complain about your own teams success.

Its bad enough that this even happened, but when you have parents supporting it with this kind of attitude, it is sad.

EVERY top team in 2018 had older kids. Funny how the person that made the post singled out 91 and Express and forgot to mention other teams.
Stop crying over having a couple of kids that might be a couple of months older than others. Don't see the same complainers mention anything about teams that have young kids.
My sons' team happens to have a few of the youngest kids in the age group but you don't see us complaining about it.
The new rules have the age cut off just like soccer now, August 31st, so all the kids were just fine.
Now that the rules have changed what will the new excuse be for not being as good as 91 or Express?
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

I am not the one who is confused. I just don't agree with you. Comparing the business model of LI Club lacrosse to Apple is ridiculous on any scale. I don't begrudge or bash any organization; the consumer will decide if the value of their experience was worth it. In my opinion, an organization that promotes and delivers competitive lacrosse along with good values will draw a bigger market share than those that don't.

This topic is not one related to just Team 91 or Team Express - let's clear that up right now. BOTC has let this discussion go far enough on the Express thread and will now step into the discussion.

The real issue is those of you involved in the youth lacrosse scene do not TRUST that age groups are being properly policed. The fact that US Lacrosse has issued new guidelines tied to getting a US Lacrosse-sanctioned tournament is great, but not everything is US Lacrosse sanctioned. All of which means that the TRUST issues will remain. As long as those TRUST issues remain, BOTC's message boards will be covered with such buzz.

The issue therefore comes back to how do you restore TRUST? First, you need to decide what organization exists that you do infact TRUST? Clearly, one can enforce birth dates at the tournament level, but that still opens a tournament organizer to questions of TRUST and turning the other way when players are checked-in for an event.

The only way to clear this TRUST barrier is to have US Lacrosse centrally sanction player passes and for the referee at the field to validate the roster and player passes at game time. Some youth lacrosse purists will bristle at this idea, but what other TRUST authority can you install in this process so that you have both the check and balance (sanctioning body, and referee) in validating the ages?

When a team CHARGES MONEY for a TRYOUT, forms a team, then recruits newer/better players because the team turned out to be mediocre, then kicks some of the players to the curb and enters a tournament as a "new" team, what kind of reception do you really think they are going to get from parents?

The Express have proven themselves to be the lowest of the low.

We need some more information. Did additional players get added mid-season or was this part of the normal roster rotation that you have with adding and dropping players from tryouts? The two are very different scenarios. In the first case, you have a clear right to complain. In the second, we are not so sure.

Looks like some people just can't let go of the barracudas. I don't know the express's intent on accepting this team for the tournamanet they played over the summer. I've read anything from it was just one tournament for the boys to play together to the express wanting to form another turtles type team. At this point, "it is what it is". The only sure thing that came out of it is that the club scene on LI for 2016 boys is vastly different then it was just a few months ago. If these changes are for the better or for the worse remains to be seen.

"This topic is not one related to just Team 91 or Team Express - let's clear that up right now"
You are 100 percent correct. My son made a different travel team and I noted several of the kids had birthdays that were not age appropriate so I asked what they do when it is a us sanctioned event. The reply was that they are not sure, either those kids will not be allowed to play or the team will be required to play up in age , but was told most tournaments are not us lacrosse sanctioned.

They do it in football, why not lacrosse? One of my favorite pictures is my son standing mid field with his defender. My sons Helmet was below the boy's shoulders, they were 11 at the time. I asked one of the dads how old the kid was and he vehemently asserted that the boy was 11. My son heard this and came over to tell us no way dad the kid has a beard. Our kids got totally blown out, and there was a lot of monkey in the middle going on. The other coach did not inflate the score but honestly whats the point? I even tried to kid around with the other parents but they just made nasty comments and refused to acknowlege that there kids were older. They were from CT. So it's not just teams around here.