BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums NORTHEAST LACROSSE BOTC MAIN FORUM (LI, CT, WC) Boys 2027-7th Grade Fall 2021/Summer 2022

People really think that a 20 year old vs 24 is the same as 11vs 15? Or pick any similar age range. If you dont understand the difference you need to stick to other conversations and take some A & P classes before you return

Thank you

Dear LT,

No matter how you try to justify it and rationalize it, and twist and turn into saying it is ok, you condone unfair play. If you really are a coach, you know this holdback situation benefits the few and puts others at injury risk and give them an unfair advantage. Do not accuse anyone of whining when you are too weak to even take a stand on something so obviously wrong. You are part of the problem.

Show me where that is happening on a regular basis. 11yo vs. 15yo, It's not. Let's not take the extreme examples of the one time you heard about a team where they might have done that once and positing that it is a nefarious issue across all of 2027 lacrosse tournaments - you can't because it doesn't happen. We're talking players that should be maybe rising sophomores who are playing vs. rising 7th graders.

C'mon man

Dear LT,

No matter how you try to justify it and rationalize it, and twist and turn into saying it is ok, you condone unfair play. If you really are a coach, you know this holdback situation benefits the few and puts others at injury risk and give them an unfair advantage. Do not accuse anyone of whining when you are too weak to even take a stand on something so obviously wrong. You are part of the problem.[/quote]

What are you doing to "take a stand"? Is whining about it on a web forum considered "taking a stand"?

Most honest people agree that holdbacks are unfair. Most would also agree that it is not likely to change in the near future. The question you need to ask yourself is what do you do about it? Will complaining about it on BOTC will affect change? Will complaining about it in front of your kid will make them a better player or better prepare them for unfair situations in the real world?

Play fair, head-ups, on age, and there is no issue. Start to move off of that, there are always those lurking in the shadows to abuse. That is why we have the problem now. The slippery slope has attracted the unethical, and if US Lax and/or the clubs will not fix it, call out the abusers.

Please show me where I have said it is ok? I haven't. I am also not justifying it. What I am doing is showing you that this is the reality. You are complaining about the following:

"unfair play" - It's called sports, everything about it is unfair. You put your best against my best and see what the outcome is. Everything about this is unfair by design, it's why we keep score. When was the last time you won a game and said it was unfair? you're smaller than them, find a solution to overcome it. Do you complain it's unfair when another team runs a scheme you've never see before? Or that your FO guy is winning 80% - that's unfair too.

"unfair advantage" - put your big boy pants on, some teams are going to have bigger, better and sometimes older players. Yes, it's unfair - there is a score, everything about sports and competition is unfair. There are winners and there are losers.

"puts others at injury risk" - This is a contact sport, you are at a risk of injury every time you step on the field. heck,you can hurt yourself getting out of bed in the morning. If you are THAT worried about injury, stay off the field.

EVERYTHING you are arguing just solidifies what I said previously. This is the same type of position that says, "well, we wold have won, but out best player was injured/our goalie had a bad game/the FO guy broke up with his girlfriend last night/Seniors had prom last night/the refs stink

The entirety of my point was that you can make excuses and cry that it exists, or you can deal with what the reality is and overcome the adversity. What is your son learning when he hears nothing but whining from the adults in the room about how everything is unfair when you lose, but when you beat those same teams it suddenly not an issue? They're sure as heck not learning how to deal with adversity, overcoming failure and finding ways to win when the chips are stacked against you.

What are you doing to "take a stand"? Is whining about it on a web forum considered "taking a stand"?

Most honest people agree that holdbacks are unfair. Most would also agree that it is not likely to change in the near future. The question you need to ask yourself is what do you do about it? Will complaining about it on BOTC will affect change? Will complaining about it in front of your kid will make them a better player or better prepare them for unfair situations in the real world?[/quote]

Yes, complaining here may help, particularly if the abusers are listed. Are we going to have 13 year olds playing in a 5th grade division? If the clubs will not self-regulate, they need pressure to get it right. One thing you cannot do is hide your head in the sand and not acknowledge the problem. Yes, I will tell my kid to fight through it, but I will not be silent for an unfair advantage and then try to bully everyone and calling them whiners. Why don't you man up and see if your kid can compete on age, and if he cannot make it, try golf.

High school ball and beyond is going to blow your mind.....

,


Hold backs will never go away. The Clubs are in the recruiting business, they want to get kids recruited to the highest possible level. College coaches want the best athletes and lacrosse players. They will always recruit the best kid which happens to be the holdbacks most of the time. One thing that is going to happen and is already happening to some degree is many of the holdbacks are not getting recruited or are not getting recruited to the schools they thought they would. On the other hand the top 2022 and 2023 holdbacks still would have been the top tier recruits if they didn't hold back. Its either you are good or you are not. Youth lacrosse really should be aged base until HS then go by recruiting years at that point. that's always been my opinion.

Nobody else on here complaining about holdbacks except 91 parents. It's their mantra ...they're just setting up the excuses for next season . They have been doing it for years ....crying about holdbacks even when there are no holdbacks on a team . It's justifies their losing . Now they will keep saying " when we were on age we won the world series"....nobody cares ....move on . You'll always have a new excuse and a new complaint , sour grapes .

Someone above tried to draw a parallel that if yout kid is not facing it now ( going vs orhers 4 years older)They will in college. 11 vs 15 is just arbitrary numbers

This has nothing to do with 91. Has everything to do with holdback dads, like you, pretending to be a big tough guy - telling others to stop whining, when your kid is so weak he cannot play on age. If you want an unfair advantage, go play on age on the girls side. That is better than this holdback garbage. Man up and play on age or clam up and take the rightful beating that you deserve.

Thanks for the advice

You people are stunads. The holdback thing while the parent is telling their kid they are not good enough to play on age so play down an age which to me is an insult to your kid. Best part even the on age players actually continue to develop while hold backs got already got caught up to in size while they had been already surpassed in skill by the smaller player that wasn’t re-classed that had to only relying on their skill.
Hashtag Dis-service to your kid!!!!

Sounds about right always make it about something else.. poor little Johnny is beating on his chest in high school telling his friends they beat every team they played ima 2027 bracket . Huge joke it’s embarrassing for the child and the parents . But continue 🤡

Agree with this .

Can we please take this to the holdback forum? My kid is not a holdback and I’m tired of hearing about it.

You are correct. People will have to fight adversity their whole lives but it doesn’t need to start at this age group. Kids should be playing kids their own age. That’s final. When they get to high school where no one actually should care about club anymore, let them reclass to their hearts delight when they can’t hack it against their own age group. But in the mean time let kids be kids and they let them play for the fun of the game before you introduce the Hunger Games aspect into their lacrosse lives.

We’re talking about rising 8th graders so one year away from high school. Let it go.

NO! It shouldn’t happen anytime before High-school!! Period!! Let the hunger games begin in HS! Until then, let the kids develop all in fairness of “on age”!

Terrible that my kid will be in HS next year and need to compete with some kids 4 to 5 years older. Joke. HS doesn’t level the playing field so stop with that excuse. Just look at the ages of top ten recruits from last 5 years and you will see that the majority are holdbacks. I’ll never stop talking holdbacks until something is done about it. holdback parents and reclassified kids should be ashamed and embarrassed. I hope my kid overcomes and puts your kid on the bench.

Well, it's final. I guess no one else gets to have an opinion.

No one can stop you from constantly complaining on anonymous lacrosse forums but based on your own admission about the age of college athletes, you’ll be complaining a long time.

That's one way to look at it.
But, as I alluded to in a previous post - speaking from a Club and HS coach's perspective: every single parent/player/family that has had this mindset going into HS is also the ones that are most astonished when the player suddenly can't handle facing players a few years older. Those parents are also the single most vocal ones who go to the coach, AD and administration whining about why their kid isn't playing/starting/on varsity and the player has little to know tools in their arsenal to deal with adversity. And why should they? All they've learned is that when there is a perceived unfairness. Their parents will complain to someone and get it fixed for them.

Your son should leave each spring and club season already prepared for the next season and if he wants to be at the truly high level, even beyond that. Do you honestly think that he's suddenly going to figure it out the second he hits high school? No way. You are already creating a situation where your son is unprepared to handle it once he gets there.

Your son - regardless what age he is playing at - will 100% face opponents who are bigger, better, stronger and more skilled than him. It wont be all the time, but it will happen. If he does not have the skills to adapt to this, he isn't going to suddenly manifest it out of thin air just because he's suddenly a 9th grader.

Can we please get back to how great 91 Machine is and how even though they stopped playing at the end of the season, they would have beaten the 2026 Lax Black team in the 2027 NLF?

well holdback dad,

Rather than playing against older/stronger kids to get better in club, you play down against smaller less developed players. You cannot have it both ways. High schools have freshman, JV and varsity programs to sort this all out. Club is supposed to sort it out by grade, but there are too many fools out there.

Once again, not a dad of any club kids yet. Just a club/HS coach trying to help the otherwise under-informed.
You are only proving the point I continue to make.

There's 2 sides to this:
1. the ones that complain their kid has to play older/stronger/better kids. I've gone to some length on this already so I will keep it simple: Your sone is a 7th or 8th grader. You WILL see this for the rest of your playing days. The earlier you get used it, gain some experience with it, the better off you will eventually be.

To the parent of those kids: Stop trying to plow an easier path forward for them because you are doing them far more long-term damage than good. I see this all the time when these parents hit HS they can not handle the fact their son is not yet prepared to take on kids that are older/stronger/better.

2. The kids that are playing down against younger/weaker/lesser kids: You aren't helping yourself either because in the next year or two, instead of dominating weaker players and teams you are now getting the ball stripped from you before your third step and you have no skills to deal with it because you've been used to running through 3 defenders with ole' checks and scoring 7 goals a game.

Parents of THOSE: See point one. It isn't helping your son develop. I see THIS all the time too. You've dominated youth and club ball in 7th and 8th grade and you play the same towns and teams in HS and get your rears handed to you because - you haven't been challenged and you haven't grown past this stage.

In summation: within the next 1-2 years you will NEVER play against only on-age players ever again. So, quit the whining, accept the reality for what it is - no it should not be that way, but it is - and develop yourself into a better player equipped to handle the challenges you are 100% going to face for the rest of your playing days.

I appreciate your perspective coach. But you can get down off your soap box on parenting techniques.

What I don't appreciate is people saying - "It is what it is it, and it isn't going to change".

Why isn't it going to change?? It is getting more out of control every year. When is it too much?

As lacrosse becomes more popular, and more nationally competitive, this becomes a bigger and more obvious issue. Back when my '21 was a rising 8th grader, there were some holdbacks, and of course kids who had grown and kids who hadn't but now it is the majority of the kids on the more competitive 2027 teams. With the addition of "national" teams into the mix, they are recruiting blindly so size plays an even bigger factor, and more and more kids are being forced to reclass if they want to keep up. So tired of seeing my team getting injured by kids that have 60 lbs on them. It's boys against men and it's not safe. 2 ER visits after our last tournament. Anyone that is telling me to quit whining either has a holdback or has a kid on a b team where this is not as much of an issue. Clearly size and strength is becoming more important than ever in the game. Barely any kids under 6' on most of the D1 rosters, and very few that are "on age". It doesn't have to start in middle school.

Once again, not a dad of any club kids yet. Just a club/HS coach trying to help the otherwise under-informed.
You are only proving the point I continue to make.

There's 2 sides to this:
1. the ones that complain their kid has to play older/stronger/better kids. I've gone to some length on this already so I will keep it simple: Your sone is a 7th or 8th grader. You WILL see this for the rest of your playing days. The earlier you get used it, gain some experience with it, the better off you will eventually be.

To the parent of those kids: Stop trying to plow an easier path forward for them because you are doing them far more long-term damage than good. I see this all the time when these parents hit HS they can not handle the fact their son is not yet prepared to take on kids that are older/stronger/better.

2. The kids that are playing down against younger/weaker/lesser kids: You aren't helping yourself either because in the next year or two, instead of dominating weaker players and teams you are now getting the ball stripped from you before your third step and you have no skills to deal with it because you've been used to running through 3 defenders with ole' checks and scoring 7 goals a game.

Parents of THOSE: See point one. It isn't helping your son develop. I see THIS all the time too. You've dominated youth and club ball in 7th and 8th grade and you play the same towns and teams in HS and get your rears handed to you because - you haven't been challenged and you haven't grown past this stage.

In summation: within the next 1-2 years you will NEVER play against only on-age players ever again. So, quit the whining, accept the reality for what it is - no it should not be that way, but it is - and develop yourself into a better player equipped to handle the challenges you are 100% going to face for the rest of your playing days.[/quote]


Coach,

You are a major part of the problem. The fact you come and here and try to justify 13 year olds beating up on 11 year olds (you are not saying that directly, but that is where your thinking goes) is laughable before you even say it. Again, do not ignore this point, high school sorts this out with freshman, JV and varsity programs. Every other sport in the US has figured it out but somehow lacrosse cannot. Could you imagine a bunch of AAU basketball 11 year olds trying to compete with 13 year olds? The only reason players are held back is to gain an unfair competitive advantage.

Coach,

You are a major part of the problem. The fact you come and here and try to justify 13 year olds beating up on 11 year olds (you are not saying that directly, but that is where your thinking goes) is laughable before you even say it. Again, do not ignore this point, high school sorts this out with freshman, JV and varsity programs. Every other sport in the US has figured it out but somehow lacrosse cannot. Could you imagine a bunch of AAU basketball 11 year olds trying to compete with 13 year olds? The only reason players are held back is to gain an unfair competitive advantage.[/quote]

Ummm......a lot of AAU and rec basktball leagues ARE grade based. There are also some youth Football leagues that are grade based. There are some age perimeters with these grade based leagues but they are pretty liberal and allow 1-2 year variances.

I am not holdback dad or a coach. I am parent of an on age 2027 who is a a starter on a top 5 team. I agree with the coach. My son was lucky enough to play for a middle school team and when he was in 6th grade he struggled playing 8th graders but it was a blessing for him because it pushed him to get better.That was the message I got from the previous poster’s response.

I understand that you are frustrated with the system as it stands but most of the people on this forum probably aren’t even holdback parents. So I’m not quite sure your message is getting to the intended targets.

Ummm......a lot of AAU and rec basktball leagues ARE grade based. There are also some youth Football leagues that are grade based. There are some age perimeters with these grade based leagues but they are pretty liberal and allow 1-2 year variances.[/quote]

I'm not justifying it. I've said now multiple times, it should not be this way, but it IS this way. Deal with reality as it is not the pretend utopia we all wish is were.
Should the club teams until HS play on age? Yes. Do some take advantage? Yes. Should they be allowed? No. Until the collective lacrosse minds get together it is unlikely to change soon so maybe *MAYBE* we also figure out a way to make it to our advantage instead of blindly tilting at windmills all the time.

BUT at the 7th and 8th grade level it is not nearly the end of the world situation people are making it out to be for one and for another, you are completely ignorant of the gigantic advantage it *could* give your son but providing them the tools to deal with it now so WHEN it gets sorted in HS his expectation levels aren't completely off-kilter.

You are taking it to the extreme to try and undermine what I am saying. This is a 2027 forum we're talking kids that are 1-2 years away from HS. We aren't talking about 11 vs. 13 year olds. we are talking kids that are about to or hitting puberty and about to hit HS level.

Big difference.

Does HS sort that out between Varsity JV and Freshman. Yes it does as it should. And if you're truly reading what I am saying - WHEN that happens, because it does as a natural course of progression, the kids that haven't faced the adversity ever because mommy and daddy like to smooth the path for them are ill equipped to handle this. Further, those Parents are far and away the biggest complainers to coaches, ADs and Administrators about playing time, not making the "right" team, etc. Often they place the blame where? On the coaches who they claim don't know what they are doing.

Is that pattern sounding familiar?

When my sons play youth football, we have to submit a birth certificate. Each age has a November 30 birthday cutoff. Additionally they also have maximum weights for Roster (beginning of season) and Game. Kids were weighed before each game. There are NO exceptions to Roster or Game weight. Heavy kids can move up one year if they can make that weight limit.

Love the comments but accepting won’t make the hold back situation!

I'm not justifying it. I've said now multiple times, it should not be this way, but it IS this way. Deal with reality as it is not the pretend utopia we all wish is were.
Should the club teams until HS play on age? Yes. Do some take advantage? Yes. Should they be allowed? No. Until the collective lacrosse minds get together it is unlikely to change soon so maybe *MAYBE* we also figure out a way to make it to our advantage instead of blindly tilting at windmills all the time.

BUT at the 7th and 8th grade level it is not nearly the end of the world situation people are making it out to be for one and for another, you are completely ignorant of the gigantic advantage it *could* give your son but providing them the tools to deal with it now so WHEN it gets sorted in HS his expectation levels aren't completely off-kilter.

You are taking it to the extreme to try and undermine what I am saying. This is a 2027 forum we're talking kids that are 1-2 years away from HS. We aren't talking about 11 vs. 13 year olds. we are talking kids that are about to or hitting puberty and about to hit HS level.

Big difference.

Does HS sort that out between Varsity JV and Freshman. Yes it does as it should. And if you're truly reading what I am saying - WHEN that happens, because it does as a natural course of progression, the kids that haven't faced the adversity ever because mommy and daddy like to smooth the path for them are ill equipped to handle this. Further, those Parents are far and away the biggest complainers to coaches, ADs and Administrators about playing time, not making the "right" team, etc. Often they place the blame where? On the coaches who they claim don't know what they are doing.

Is that pattern sounding familiar?[/quote]


Coach, First I appreciate the level-headed discussion, but we just fundamentally disagree. To sum it up, your position is that you do not condone it and it is not right, but it is actually beneficial for the on-age player to play against an older player. I think that may be true for a very few on-age players, but for many on age players it is just getting outmatched physically by an older larger kid. And what happens if one holdback per team turns into 10, which is happening. Sure we can teach lessons about hard work and life not being fair, but that does not justify the situation. Maybe the holdback players should play up a year, rather than down a year, so they can experience the same type of character building you are claiming to be so important for the on-age players. Or maybe the on-age kid that thinks all this character building is important can play up an age so they can learn against bigger players. But in no universe should the player be held back, it is unfair and the holdback player is not learning all the valuable lessons that you claim are so important for the on-age player to learn.

Says the passive aggressive holdback dad living his dreams through their kid.

Yeah. You are right. Let set the cutoff at seventh grade because they are only two years from high school. Or why not third grade because they are only 6 years from high school. Better yet let’s set it at kindergarten because they are only 9 yeas from high school. We must teach them adversity now!!

It should be an 8th grade cutoff where the age disparity actually makes a bigger difference. If a parent is shocked when they hit high school that there is an age and size difference then that’s on them. And then I would argue the exact opposite: kids should be playing up and not play down as a holdback. If it is truly about getting “better” all the holdback parents have it backwards. Play up and get your butt kicked to get better.

Coach, First I appreciate the level-headed discussion, but we just fundamentally disagree. To sum it up, your position is that you do not condone it and it is not right, but it is actually beneficial for the on-age player to play against an older player. I think that may be true for a very few on-age players, but for many on age players it is just getting outmatched physically by an older larger kid. And what happens if one holdback per team turns into 10, which is happening. Sure we can teach lessons about hard work and life not being fair, but that does not justify the situation. Maybe the holdback players should play up a year, rather than down a year, so they can experience the same type of character building you are claiming to be so important for the on-age players. Or maybe the on-age kid that thinks all this character building is important can play up an age so they can learn against bigger players. But in no universe should the player be held back, it is unfair and the holdback player is not learning all the valuable lessons that you claim are so important for the on-age player to learn.[/quote]

Agree with this guy. Play up or playing on age if you really want your kid to get better. And the coach keeps saying that 7th and 8th graders are close enough to high school and should have hit puberty so their growth curve is already closely aligned with high schoolers? Yeah. No. Whoever said 8th grade should be the cut off and no holdbacks before 8th grade and that’s final; I think that’s perfectly reasonable. That’s what they have multiple teams in high school to sort it out. And the argument that the 9th graders are going to be shell shocked by the sudden size difference and not figure it out in 9th grade? I’ll argue they wouldn’t have been ready anyways. And if you are that worried about it then play UP before you get to high school. Playing down achieves nothin prior to high school.

The problem that exists is with the parents that have held their kid back prior to high school and don’t embrace/admit it. Those parents that get over passionate on the sidelines knowing their kid is older than most of the other kids on the field. Just admit it, give the courteous golf clap and accept the fact you had to hold your kid back to win and/or compete. As a parent of an on age 2027 I thank you for making my kid better. And in 2 or 3 years better than your kid. And when I then reclass my kid, I will keep my head down, acknowledge he is a repeat and internally smile as he kicks the garbage out of younger kids on the club circuit.

Any cost of clubs can anyone share this season ?