BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums NORTHEAST LACROSSE BOTC MAIN FORUM (LI, CT, WC) Boys High School Lax

Well that’s a great response on the girls HS forum, now do the men. Let’s stay consistent here.

[/quote] Well that’s a great response on the girls HS forum, now do the men. Let’s stay consistent here.[/quote]


Maybe, it's because men's only lax recruiting data isn't publicly available. Why don't you provide your own data? Have you ever heard of the mathematical concept called interpolation?

Still carrying on about this?

What is the point?

It is a fact that recruited athletes can get into schools with lower grades than “regular student”.

It doesn’t matter if it is Stony Brook, Hofstra, BU, High Point, Bucknell, Army, Navy, UNC, Penn Stare, Yale, Princeton, Penn etc…

Not sure what the point of this discussion is.

Maybe, it's because men's only lax recruiting data isn't publicly available. Why don't you provide your own data? Have you ever heard of the mathematical concept called interpolation?[/quote]

No, the point is, male lacrosse players do not get a tremendous boost as is repeatedly implied here. They get a minimal “boost. That’s the painful truth for far too many lacrosse parents who thinks juniors C+ average an 1090 SAT are getting him into Duke or ND. It’s not.

Maybe, it's because men's only lax recruiting data isn't publicly available. Why don't you provide your own data? Have you ever heard of the mathematical concept called interpolation?[/quote]

No, the point is, male lacrosse players do not get a tremendous boost as is repeatedly implied here. They get a minimal “boost. That’s the painful truth for far too many lacrosse parents who thinks juniors C+ average an 1090 SAT are getting him into Duke or ND. It’s not.[/quote]

Nobody thinks their kid is getting into any top tier academic school with a c+ average.

Maybe, it's because men's only lax recruiting data isn't publicly available. Why don't you provide your own data? Have you ever heard of the mathematical concept called interpolation?[/quote]

No, the point is, male lacrosse players do not get a tremendous boost as is repeatedly implied here. They get a minimal “boost. That’s the painful truth for far too many lacrosse parents who thinks juniors C+ average an 1090 SAT are getting him into Duke or ND. It’s not.[/quote]

Depending on the school and the player it can be much more than a "minimal boost". At the same time, they will pass on a player who they know will struggle too much academically.

No, the point is, male lacrosse players do not get a tremendous boost as is repeatedly implied here. They get a minimal “boost. That’s the painful truth for far too many lacrosse parents who thinks juniors C+ average an 1090 SAT are getting him into Duke or ND. It’s not.[/quote]

Nobody thinks their kid is getting into any top tier academic school with a c+ average.[/quote]

That didn’t age well now did it?

Nobody thinks their kid is getting into any top tier academic school with a c+ average.[/quote]

That didn’t age well now did it?[/quote]

Yeah, it did. Nobody thinks their kid is getting into any top tier academic school with a C+ average. Nobody.

No, the point is, male lacrosse players do not get a tremendous boost as is repeatedly implied here. They get a minimal “boost. That’s the painful truth for far too many lacrosse parents who thinks juniors C+ average an 1090 SAT are getting him into Duke or ND. It’s not.[/quote]

Notre Dame? No you’re not getting in with a C+ and a 1090 no matter how good you are. If you’re a top 10 recruit in the class, Duke will get you in.

No, they do not.

Nobody thinks their kid is getting into any top tier academic school with a c+ average.[/quote]

That didn’t age well now did it?[/quote]

There are huge advantages in the admission process for lacrosse players. My sons friend, and not someone that people would consider a great player, was able to get into Stony Brook with a 2.4 GPA. Stony Brook requires a 3.8 on average for non-athletes. Of course Stony Brook is not the greatest school and has a tough time finding people who want to go there but this illustrates the type of boost you can get in admissions with lacrosse for someone who is not even a great player. Also, the kid is doing very well academically at Stony Brook.

No, the point is, male lacrosse players do not get a tremendous boost as is repeatedly implied here. They get a minimal “boost. That’s the painful truth for far too many lacrosse parents who thinks juniors C+ average an 1090 SAT are getting him into Duke or ND. It’s not.[/quote]

Nobody thinks their kid is getting into any top tier academic school with a c+ average.[/quote]


You're deluded if you think a lacrosse player with a low 1400 SAT and top grades with 0 hooks other than athletics is getting into a top 10 school WITHOUT being recruited by that school's coach. In fact, the cost of just getting 1 foot in the door of these prestigious schools is close to SAT 1500+ or equivalent and top 5% class rank. It's a numbers game- there are too few spots available and too many qualified students applying every year. Every year, there are over 20,000+ kids in the US who score 1500+ on the SAT with roughly 10,000 or fewer openings (outside of hooks) among the top 10 schools.. Even among students with SAT scores of 1500+, that's not enough. They want students to demonstrate significant (read- national level) excellence outside of their usual scholastic activity (e.g. Regeneron ISEF finalist, publishing scientific research, running a successful NGO, award winning writing, volunteering, nationally recognized musician). Of course, there are rare exceptions for special individuals. David Hogg got into Harvard with his 1270 SAT score because he was a survivor of the Parkland HS shootings and became a nationally recognized gun control activist. Malala Yousafzai would also get in with really low grades and scores because she won a Nobel Prize. If you think that being a nationally recognized lacrosse player means something, it doesn't unless that school's coach wants you. Every one of these schools (with D1 sports programs) already has over 1000+ varsity athletes comprising up to 23% of the student body; they don't need any more athletes, especially one who plays the same sport but isn't being recruited to play for their team.
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Best way into top schools is with sports as a recruited athlete, as long as you are in range with the grades. Second best way for non athlete is to transfer in after freshman year. Chances of being accepted as sophomore rise dramatically.

We were told this by our HS college counselor. If you are trying to get accepted by a top academic school as a recruited athlete, you are basically putting all of your eggs in one basket Because nearly all competitive athletes put most of their extracurricular time focused on sports, they really have nothing to show for in that category outside of athletics. If the coach of that school isn't interested in recruiting you, your athletic achievements essentially become meaningless to that school. And since most competitive athletes don't have any other significant extracurricular activities, you have no shot in competing against the many similarly qualified academic applicants who have.

Your hs counselor lied to you or you son is not good enough. Good luck with both!!

I strongly agree. If the coach of the school isn’t recruiting your son, the athletic achievements aren’t really impactful, unless he was like a captain or something like that.

The lack of understanding displayed throughout the discussion about recruiting and admission to college/university is truly remarkable.

My son is a junior on 9/1 eleven schools reached out. Not DUKE, ND, Virginia etc. However hey were all D-1 schools and he has a 89 average and hasn't taken the SAT yet so far not one school has said he wont get in academically. Bottom line he is an average student and that is fine and Lax is going to get him into one of those schools FACT. Without Lax he wouldn't be considered.

We have beaten this topic to death. Anyone who does not understand how recruiting and admissions works has their head in the sand.

Although every situation is different, the bottom line is that recruited athletes do not need the same academic credentials as non athletes. It doesn’t matter if we are talking about Princeton, Harvard or Yale or lower academic tier schools recruited athletes are not held to the same academic standards as the general population.

The level of help depends on how good the recruit is compared to the grades he has and what the school requires. Everyone gets some help. The higher a school has placed a kid on the recruitment list the more help he will receive. Nothing is absolute. I know one kid who got into a top lacrosse and academic Ivy through lacrosse and a weak Patriot League team could not get him through admissions. Every coach has a different relationship with admissions. Every coach evaluates talent different. Just because a top lacrosse and academic school like Yale wants a kid does not mean a weaker lacrosse college with much weaker admissions standards could get him through admissions. Every situation is different.

2020 and 2021 recruiting classes: Ivy League schools wanted SAT scores in the 1400 range for recruited lax players with some exceptions
2022 and ?2023 recruiting classes: SAT/ACT scores were no longer required by the Ivy League for recruited lax players

Around and around we go…. Please stop trying to point out individual situation as if they are the norm.

Every recruit is different and every school is different and every situation is different.

To say Ivy League schools were looking for an SAT score in the 1400 range is not accurate at all. Recruiting is specific to the player and the school.

It is very simple, athletes get preferential treatment with admissions. However, not all athletes are equal, some will get more help than others. Just because a coach tells one recruit that they need certain grades or test scores does not mean every other recruit needs the same.

All of the stories are nice to hear but in the end every situation is different.

If you are going through this process for the first time or will be going through it in the future do not listen to much of the nonsense on here. Let the coaches who are interested in your son tell him/you what credentials your son will need.

Source of this information?

Personal experience and info from kid's older teammates who committed to those schools
Have you ever heard of the Ivy League's Academic Index? There was an Ivy League overall requirement for athletic recruits to fall within a prescribed academic band.

https://www.mka.org/uploaded/college_counseling/Publications/AI_Guidelines_Worksheet.pdf

see below as well:

How to calculate

If you’re a high school football player receiving letters from Ivy League football programs, then you should know what the Ivy League’s Academic Index (A.I.) is, and how to calculate it. Ivy League recruiters typically will not explain this.

The information presented here was drawn from College Consultant Gerald Bradshaw, conversations with teachers, coaches andother resources.

What is the Academic Index?

The Academic Index is a gauge that Ivy League coaches use to determine a player's recruitability. Approximately two-thirds of elibinlity is based a student sstandardized test score (SAT or ACT); the other third is based on your class rank (or GPA, if your school does not provide class rank).

Important fact: All Ivy League sports programs must abide by rules surrounding the index. Therefore, if your Academic Index is below the minimum level, you must raise it, or you cannot be admitted.

Ivy League schools have in the past sent out recruiting letters to students before ever calculating your index. Recruiting letters are not a guarantee of admittance.

The index shown below is just a rough approximation used by Ivy League coaches. The real Academic Index used by Ivy admissions offices involves the use of the SAT 2 exam, which most athletes have not taken.

Caluclate:

•Two Ways to Calculate
–1/3 SAT-I/ACT Average + 1/3 SAT-II Average + 1/3 Converted Rank Score
–2/3 SAT-I/ACT Average +1/3 Converted Rank Scores
•Converted Rank Score is a GPA or Class Rank Calculation (based on charts or a formula)
•Generally, 2/3 SAT-I Average + CRS is used


•Examples:
–SAT-I: CR: 680 M: 630 WR: 610
•SAT Average = 640 (64 Pts)
–SAT-II: Chemistry 590, US History 610
•SAT-II Average = 600 (60 Pts)
–High School GPA = 3.4
–Use 2/3 +1/3 Formula!
–CRS = 68 Pts
–AI = 64+64+68 = 196



What it means

If you have an Academic Index below 171, you cannot be admitted to an Ivy League school as an athlete.

For those at or above 171, the meaning of the Academic Index varies from school to school.

To precisely determine an athlete’s recruitability, the Ivy League segments all A.I.s above 171 into four “bands.” something like A, B, C, D, with A being the highest band. Using this system, an Ivy League school like Harvard, with a high Academic Index of 220 and a standard deviation of 14 would have its bands defined as follows: High: 197-210, Med: 183-196, Low: 176-182, Low-Low: 171-175.

Ivy League schools rarely, if ever, publish their mean A.I.s. It is assumed, however, that Harvard, Yale, and Princeton (in that order) have the three highest mean figures, probably at or around 220. According to the book, "Playing the Game," Dartmouth usually falls fourth at approximately 212, followed (in order) by Columbia, Pennsylvania, Brown, and Cornell.

Under the rules of the system, no school can admit more than 30 football players per year. Moreover, the schools must specifically show that prescribed numbers of recruited players fall into the bands as follows:
High band: 8 players
Med. band: 13 players
Low band: 7 players
Low-Low: 2 players

In general, however, the following is also true about the meaning of your A.I.:
1. The lower your band, the better you must be as an athlete.
2. Students who fall in the “low-low” band need to be exceptional athletes (all-state caliber players who are being recruited by Michigan or Ohio State, for example).
3. Students with A.I.s above 220 stand a better chance of being recruited, and needn’t be All-State caliber players. In fact, some Ivies have been known to pad their teams’ Academic Indices by recruiting football players with 1550 SAT scores and virtually no chance of ever seeing game action.
4. In football, offensive linemen are often recruited in the medium and high bands. Low-low bands are most often reserved for impact players: quarterbacks, running backs, and wide receivers.
5. Ivy admissions are tough, even for recruited athletes. All Ivy League schools start with a pool of more than a thousand players, and then whittle that pool down to 30. A typical “low-low,” therefore, will be in the top quarter of his high school class, with a 27 on the ACT (1220 SAT), and will be a first-team all-stater or even a high school All-American caliber player. A typical “high” might still be an all-conference caliber player with a 33+ ACT (1460+ SAT) and a top 5% ranking.

Finally, remember that the formula presented here is a rough approximation used by coaches. Ivy admissions officers typically want prospective students to take the SAT 2 exam before calculating their “real” Academic Index.

So a guy you know told a guy you know! Got it, thanks for the factual information.

Yes, there is an “academic index” at the ivy’s and there is a minimum score needed. However, every recruits situation is different so to put out that Ivy League schools were looking for 1400 is not accurate. It may have been what you were told but it is not the same for everyone. Some might be told they need 1500 while others might be told they need 1230.

The better the player the less their academic credentials need to be. You can not paint with a broad brush.

Again, football is quite different from lacrosse. I would challenge anyone on here to go the Ivy rosters and see where all those kids went to HS. A whole lot of privates, very few publics.

Just my anecdotes. I doubt anyone on this forum is a college coach or an admissions officer who can provide detailed intelligence. So I doubt anyone here can do any better.

I did write this, "WANTED SAT scores (meaning not absolutely required) in the 1400 range for recruited lax players with SOME EXCEPTIONS." So it was clearly meant to be a generalization. However, with the AI rules in place during that time; I find it hard to believe that there were many lacrosse players with scores 1300 or lower who would get through the admissions office.

It I s very simple, the team AI (the average of every individual AI of each admitted athlete) must be within 1 standard deviation of the campus Academic Index. For every kid with a low AI, the coach must bring in a kid with a high AI so that the team average is close to the overall campus AI. Obviously there is a minimum acceptable AI score so all admitted athletes must have decent academic credentials.

Keep in mind, coaches do bring in “recruits” that know they will never see the field. These are players that have exceptional grades and test scores, perfect or near perfect test scores and 100 + average with a challenging curriculum all honors/AP/IB etc… they boost the average.

The top recruits in the class can have significantly lower credentials.

Only real difference at an Ivy is the amount of players. They still need to average out the Team AI.

Not sure what your point is regarding public or private. My oldest went to a public HS and I believe there were 9 athletes from the same graduation class that went on to compete at Ivy League schools .

I think most college lacrosse rosters are filled with kids from private schools (not just the Ivy’s)

No disagreement- an Ivy League coach can balance a low academically performing athlete by a recruiting one or many high academically performing athlete.

But a coach can't fill his bulk of his roster with "low academically performing athlete." Since football and basketball team recruits are accepted with the lowest scores, non-revenue sports teams are usually required to present higher AI rosters to Admissions to offset the lower scores of football/basketball players. My impression is that that the SAT 1300 lax-recruited player is more the exception than the rule.

For the Harvard admissions process, A SAT 1300 level student actually gets an academic score of 4 (or borderline 3) on a 5 point score. Normally, only applicants with overall scores of 1-2 make it to the admissions office committee phase to be voted on. So that is a pretty big academic gap compared with the typical non-athlete applicant who makes it to the admission committee evaluation process.


From the Harvard Crimson, "Here’s How the Harvard Admissions Process Really Works"

"In order to score an academic 1, an applicant must be a “potential major academic contributor” with “summa potential” and “near-perfect scores and grades.” It also helps if the high schooler has “national or international level recognition in academic competitions.”

Those who earn an academic 2 typically score in the mid-700s or higher on the SAT — or 33 or higher on the ACT. An academic 3 denotes an applicant with “mid-600 through low-700 scores” on the SAT or a 29 through 32 on the ACT.

A student with an academic 4, meanwhile, typically boasts “low-to mid-600 scores” on the SAT and between a 26 and 29 on the ACT — academic achievements the admissions office call “adequate preparation” for Harvard. Students who draw a 5 academic ranking typically earn SAT scores in the 500s or an ACT score clocking in at 25 or below. Harvard asserts these high schoolers have only “marginal potential.”

The Class of 2023 reading procedures indicate that all applications with a 2- overall score or better should make it to the committee phase. The first reader decides on a case-by-case basis whether those who earn a 3+ will proceed, while those scoring a 3 or worse typically do not advance."

So in summary, your average academic student got into an average academic D-1 program. So……..

Without lax maybe he would have studied and had the grade for the schools that didn't call. just sayin. Average grades, average schools, average job offers.......

The point is, the ridiculous argument that lacrosse “significantly “ improves an athlete’s chances for admissions. The vast majority of players at Ivy League schools are excellent students from elite private HS programs and families of means. They are not 85 GPA 1200 SAT students from a LI public as some here would have you believe. This is also true for those athletes going to elite programs and schools ie UVA, UNC and ND.

Lol, UVA and UNC are not elite. They are not even top 20 schools. You really can't put them in the same conversation as a top 10 private. Great schools just not in the same league.

There has not been a single post on here stating that kids are getting into Ivy League schools with an 85 average.

It appears the argument is from people like you who refuse to acknowledge that without Lacrosse your son would have zero chance of getting into an Ivy.

So, to go from zero chance to actually being accepted is “significant” help.

It is not the parents means or the elite private school or their grades that help kids get into Ivy League schools it is Lacrosse. Without Lacrosse 90 of the rosters would not have been admitted. That is true at most programs, not just Ivy’s.

Lacrosse most certainly does "significantly" improve an athletes chances for admission to Ivy League schools. As for the "public" school kids from Long Island or anywhere for that matter you should be very thankful that they choose to attend Ivy League schools because over the years Ivy League Teams would be very pedestrian without them.

One thing yall are missing here is the high academic student who is maybe not a top prospect that will be offered a spot on the team and a good financial package because he/she will bring up that AI score for a better prospect with worse grades. A student at mywife's HS got into Yale and a full ride, Girls Soccer, because she was 1500+ sat and 4.0+ Academically, she was fine. Her athletics was borderline, but her grades got her the D1 ride.. For every recruit with marginal grades, there needs to be one on the other end..