BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums NORTHEAST LACROSSE BOTC MAIN FORUM (LI, CT, WC) Boys High School Lax

According to a previous poster, players with Jermaine O’Neill’s
mentality don’t think that way (about playing time).

“ You never think about not playing. You just don’t think about that. But if you do you are a looser. “

Rutgers 2022 men's lacrosse roster

28 seniors including 15 5th year players including transfers from Wesleyan, Bucknell, Salisbury, Yale, Lehigh, Providence, Penn, and MSM

https://scarletknights.com/sports/mens-lacrosse/roster/2022?&sort=class

Bottom line, the problem just isn’t that prevalent. The holdback kids who are getting spots at Duke, UNC and ND would be there regardless. The parent who is complaining, there kid was never ever an option.

Why hold back if they have the same results not holding back? You know that holding back gets kids in better schools. So stop. Also not all parents complain because their kid can’t make it into a top school. You know that too. Some are Disgusted with people who take short cuts and will never respect a hold back because they think it is better to work hard and not take the easy way out. Either way who cares what people think. If what people are saying about hold backs bothers a hold back parent then maybe what they are saying has some truth. A kid can hold back and get into a top school but don’t think that everybody is going to respect them and praise them. That is OK. A parent should not need anyone else’s praise if you are a holdback parent. Do what you have to do for your kid. Either hold back or don’t. It will always be a topic to discuss.

Anyone else surprised at the low number of commitments? I wonder what is a bigger factor, the 5-year seniors meaning, less signing in total, or covid delaying the evaluations for '23s and it will just take a few more months...

If you would not want your kid to go to Rutgers, why do you care how many 5th year players they have? It seems bizarre that you appear to concern yourself with the decisions of other people.

Aren't the 5th year college lacrosse players essentially the same thing as the holdbacks on club/HS lacrosse teams? But unlike holdbacks, the 5th year college lacrosse player is DEFINITELY taking a younger player's roster spot as well as taking away some younger teammates' playing time and scholarship money.

No problem with all with the competitive advantage one gains for their child through holding them back to gain maturity, experience and greater degree of knowledge-just play with your own age group in youth. Reasonable? Hopefully this won't even be a discussion clogging the forum by '23 when it becomes mandated birth year grouping for club lacrosse play. Discussion over, playing field leveled. Thank you US Lacrosse. See it through.

Most should not hold back to go to a school like Rutgers. If you hold back and wind up at Rutgers it is a total fail. Holding back for a top school is worth it.

Completely agree with this statement!!

US Lacrosse has no power...

Also hearing some very good news out of USL. But it will be a 2 year transition to birth year groupings. Gonna be fun to see where these kids end up in 2023 when they have to play on age. Can’t wait to see teams realign and it all shake out in the next few years!

ironically, you care what people think, that's why you're on here. People disgusted with others people's choices? That's what it's about? So if I'm disgusted about who you voted for or your decision to get vaccinated or abortion rights or immigration I'm morally superior? Holding back does in fact get kids into good schools, schools they would have gotten into regardless, unfortunately the most vociferous parents, such as yourself, think that spot should have gone to their son. If he's at a low-level D-1, a D-2 or D-3, it's because he was never going to UNC or Duke. But keep lying to yourself.

Can almost guarantee those same kids, who are going to end up at top ACC and Big ten and Ivy schools are going to dominate. The myth that they are only great because of holdback is ridiculous.

I've been following club lacrosse for almost 10 years and this argument has been going on the entire time. Almost every kid outside of NY is a year older than the NY club teams. I sent my son to a New England prep school and he repeated 9th grade as he had a late-ish birthdate and the coach at that school said he wouldn't take him as a direct grade transfer. It was one of the best decisions we could've made and he is very prepared for college, academically, physically and maturity-wise. Of his incoming freshman college recruiting class, which is at a top 10 ranked program, 11 out of the 12 kids would fall under the NY definition of being a "holdback". Almost every single athlete at NE boarding schools is a full year older than NY public schools and in some cases, two years older. This issue will never go away and the reality is that college coaches don't care. Look at Connor Shellenberger who is at UVA. He went to two different private schools and then redshirted his freshman year, and then became a first team AA as a freshman. Public school kids in NY are at a clear disadvantage vs. other states where it is super easy to reclass at the private schools. The NE boarding schools all have strong financial aid programs so even if you don't have the financial resources to pursue a PG year there are options to help pay for it. If your son is a NY public school kid I would highly recommend a PG year if they want to play top level college lacrosse, there's virtually zero downside risk to doing it. At the younger ages it's definitely a safety issue but once you reach high school it's not that big of a deal in my opinion.

In my opinion, as someone who coached youth sports for many years, the holdbacks are not a problem for the talented kids but are the problem for a kid who isn't that talented yet but loves the sport. That kid who maybe this is his first year playing lacrosse and he goes out and plays a team with several holdbacks. Forgot about getting blown out because of the holdbacks but maybe gets knocked around by a kid who has 6 inches and 30 pounds on him because he is a year or 2 older. Those kids unfortunately say forget this, i'll go back to soccer, basketball etc where at least I'm playing kids my own age instead of the kids driving to the games. Most towns starting at the PAL level can maybe field one team per age group. Some towns are bigger and can field multiple teams. For some towns losing those 1,2,3,4 players can be the difference between having a PAL team for an age group and not having one. Can ruin the lacrosse experience for many kids. All because some lost parents want their 15 year old to beat up on 13 year olds. My kid is in high school now and is pretty good and loves lacrosse. Every time I come home from a club lacrosse event I feel the need to take a shower to get the filth of the whole US lacrosse landscape off me. Maybe I'm just old fashioned and remember the pride of being asked to play up with the older kids when I was young. With youth lacrosse in America instead of reach for the top its swim to the bottom to be successful.

If you only knew how wrong you are. I feel bad for your son. You get angry so easy. It is funny. Keep talking. We all need a laugh.

People need to calm down and play this out logically in their mind. There is a difference between the best school and the best fit. I know for a fact that UNC offers spots on the team to kids with absolutely worthless majors. If you would like to be a journalist major go to UNC. Sometimes the best school does not necessarily turn into the best fit. If you take a look at some of the graduates of lacrosse players who went to the Ivy league or other top level schools many times the outcome after graduation is not so great. Sometimes a kid who goes to a lesser ranked school that is a better fit has a better outcome after graduation. I know it is very hard to pass up an Ivy League or top school but sometimes you must because it is a bad fit. My oldest, who was accepted into two Ivy league schools on grades and not sports, chose a top 20 academic school instead because it was a much better fit. Did not go to the Ivy league school. I believe it would have been miserable going there. For other people the ivy league and similar type schools are a great fit. My middle one was offered coincidently a lacrosse spot for the same two Ivy League schools. He chose to go to an almost top academic school, which was not in the top 20, but was considered a top school for his major. Both kids are doing extremely well. Fit is the most important thing to consider. I agree 100% there are many more opportunities for kids who graduate from the Ivy league or similar schools like Duke. However, I see so many people go to a school like Hopkins or Duke just to be miserable and not have such a great outcome after graduation. Do your homework and don’t get so caught up in the name of the school. Sometimes those top schools are not the best fit and the kid winds up miserable and with an awful result after graduation because the school was not a great fit. Also try not to be so angry with this open discussion. Both sides have a good points and everybody is going to make decisions which is best for their kid.

So if a club decides to have holdback kids what will US Lacrosse do? Legally they have no authority over the clubs. Not sure who is mandating what here. I think someone sold you a bridge and you bought it.

The post referring to Top 20 academics instead of Ivies is confusing. The Ivy schools all rank in the Top 20. Otherwise, if a lacrosse school you’re referring to Georgetown, JHU, Duke, UNC and ND. Lehigh and Lafayette are there as well. Pretty sure the student body at all those schools is the same, wealthy white kids from homogeneous neighborhoods. Basically Ivy’s.

Hopkins 31 percent white. Brown 41 percent white. All Ivy League schools under 50 percent white. Nothing wrong with that. In fact it is great that schools are more diverse. You are just incorrect with your post. Have to be more careful what you say. That is why people should not listen to 90 percent of what they read here. Everyone do your own homework and choose a school.

Interesting post. The US population is over 60% white. That puts white students at the above schools in the under represented column. To right the wrongs of the past these schools have now essentially become systemically racist against white students. Which seems to be completely acceptable and even revered in academia today. I think if the poster dug a little deeper on the said demographics of these schools they would find a majority of the athletes at these schools are white students. It has become one of the few ways for white students to gain entry into these schools. Extremely difficult for a non-athlete white student, particularly male, even with the highest of grades and HS accolades to gain admission to these schools. It's another reason why many of these schools are eliminating sports teams, mostly on the men's side.

How does soccer do it?

A couple of things... UNC, Lehigh and Lafayette are not on par with Ivy's.

Ivy's are not all wealthy white kids from homogeneous neighborhoods.

The post that you are referring to is from a guy who is trying to justify his (his kids) choice / decision.

I think he’s trying to say that your first priority should be your kids fit, level of happiness and outcome.
These top schools are full of … different kids. They are not the all American types you think they are. They are all super-woke. I got the weekly email from my alma mater (a popular private school w the yankees in the south)this morning and 5 of the 10 headlines were about how woke the school is becoming. I’m glad there is now a science club for the LGBQ’s but what else? You can now get a Kunta cloth at graduation!
They should just be touting the engineering lab!
Just by looking at these schools IG you can tell. Very different.

A top 25 school, University of Virginia out of state average ACT 35 average in-state ACT 33. A top 35 school UNC has similar stats but not as good as UVA but better than many of the Ivy league. Dartmouth and Cornell average ACT 33 and 32 respectively. University of Virginia average grade point average for out of state over 4.4. Total grade point average 4.3. UNC is about the same. Many Ivy League grade point average under a 4.0 but all are lower than UVA and UNC. Believe it or not this is all weighted. I can replace the University of Virginia and UNC who are not in the top 20 with other schools in the top 20 which are all outperforming entering students statistics compared to the Ivy league. Ivy League not what it once was. Add to the mix the animonsity the Ivy leagues have for independent political views make it not a great fit for many students. Also statistically, not sure if it is true in reality, the top five state schools are outperforming the Ivy league in job placement. Also, top 20 schools are outperforming the Ivy league in average salary. What is being said here is not out wrong based on stats. As a prior post said pick a school based on fit and other factors and not just a name and ranking.

In the old days you can pick a school without visiting and most likely be happy. These days you must visit the school when school in session to see who you will be going to school with. You are correct. Pick a school based on outcome, fit and happiness. Many of the top schools, especially the ivy league, are not a good fit for a good portion of America especially those who play lacrosse. There are many schools which would be a good fit that either outperform or are on par with the Ivy league or top 20 ranked. Unfortunately many here have egos that will not understand that and force a kid into a bad situation.

You are splitting hairs…

Just about all schools administrations are super woke…. Ivy’s just get more press.

While I agree that fit is the most important thing ,
People are trying to justify their decisions.

The original poster would have you believe that many Ivy grads are lost after graduation but that all of the grads from other schools are wildly successful and have it all figured out.

While I believe it's great for a kid to go to The Best school it is Best to go to Right (best fit) school.

Every kid is different and every school is different and every program is different. Help your sons and or daughters find the best fit.

-- "Below are some rankings of where some of the Major Players in Investment Banking, Consulting and Big Tech hire from "Target Schools". Just want to point out the opportunities Lacrosse can provide for our children. The rankings are primarily in order of "number undergraduate hires" from each school from 2014 - 2019.

Not knocking or touting any schools, just pointing out that Lacrosse can help get our children into many of the feeder schools that many companies recruit from.

Not every kid knows what career path they want to pursue so choosing a school that can open as many doors as possible is very important. In many cases, it will be the school "name recognition and or prestige" that will help get their foot in the door with an interview (lacrosse connections help as well).

Yes, I know there are a lot of great schools that are not on any of the lists....


Investment Banking: at the top firms (2014 - 2019)

1 - Penn
2 - NYU
3 - Michigan
4 - Harvard
5 - Georgetown
6 - Cornell
7 - Yale
8 - Columbia
9 - Notre Dame
10 - Princeton
11 - U of Chicago
12 - Cal - Berkeley
13 - Texas
14 - Duke
15 - Virginia
16 - Dartmouth
17 - BYU
18 - Vanderbilt
19 - Indiana
20 - Uni Southern Cal
21 - Northwestern
22 - Boston College
23 - Brown
25 - North Carolina
26 - Stanford
27 - UCLA
28 - Middlebury
29 - Penn State
30 - Emory

Consulting: at the top firms (2014 - 2020)

1 - Harvard
2 - Penn
3 - Michigan
4 - Yale
5 - Stanford
6 - Duke
7 - Princeton
8 - MIT
9 - Uni Cal Berkeley
10 - Northwestern
11 - Columbia
12 - Texas
13 - Virginia
14 - Dartmouth
15 - Notre Dame
16 - Vanderbilt
16 - Uni Chicago
18 - Brown
19 - Georgetown
20 - Georgia Tech
21 - Western University
22 - Mc Gill University
23 - Washington Uni St. Louis
24 - Queen's University
25 - BYU
26 - Rice
27 - Uni Southern California
28 - Cornell
29 - North Carolina
30 - Uni Illinois


Big Tech

1 University of California, Berkeley
2 Stanford University
3 Carnegie Mellon University
4 University of Southern California
5 The University of Texas at Austin
6 Georgia Institute of Technology
7 University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
8 San Jose State University
9 University of California, San Diego
10 Arizona State University
11 University of Michigan
12 University of California, Los Angeles
13 North Carolina State University
14 California Polytechnic State University - San Luis Obispo
15 Cornell University
16 University of Waterloo (Canada)
17 Texas A&M University
18 University of Washington
19 Purdue University
20 Massachusetts Institute of Technology
21 Santa Clara University
22 University of Phoenix
23 University of California, Santa Barbara
24 University of California, Davis
25 Penn State University

Here is some additional food for thought... Link to article at the bottom

These 30 Colleges get students Jobs through great professional partnerships. I think 18 of the these schools have a varsity women's lacrosse program.

1 - Michigan
2 - Penn State
3 - Stanford
4 - Harvard
5 - NYU
6 - Princeton
7 - University of Cal. Berkeley
8 - Penn
9 - MIT
10 - USC (California)
11 - Cornell
12 - Dartmouth
13 - Washington
14 - Texas A&M
15 - Yale
16 - Northeastern
17 - Purdue
18 - Carnegie Mellon University
19 - Georgia Tech
20 - UCLA
21 - Claremont McKenna College
22 - Arizona State
23 - California Institute of Technology
24 - University of Maryland
25 - North Carolina State
26 - University of Cal. San Diego
27 - Florida
28 - University of Cal. Davis
29 - Virginia Tech
30 - Embry Riddle Aeronautical

See link for article

https://www.bestvalueschools.com/colleges-professional-partnerships/ "

Who cares, this is lacrosse.

And… you don’t care to make it a fair playing field at the youth ages in their developing years? Sounds like you had an older kid playing younger ones!? Hmmm

Here's the problem with men's college lacrosse. Among the top 20 "national universities" according to US News and World Report, only 11 have a men's lacrosse team. Among the top 50 universities, only 19 have a men's lacrosse team. Among the top 80 universities, only 28 have a men's lacrosse team.
If your goal is to get recruited to play college lacrosse, your options are limited. There are a lot of great universities which you can't consider because the vast majority of universities don't offer the sport, so it is a bit of a gamble.

That's assuming your goal is to use the sport of lacrosse to try to get accepted to a high academic school that normally would be considered a very tough reach.

The bridge has legs. Teams will have to submit rosters with their registrations. The older kids won't be allowed to play (um like world series now) so teams will be comprised of kids that are eligible to play. In soccer the kids have an id card with their picture and dob that they present to the ref prior to league games. pretty simple. and again, in hs years when most of the kids have gone through puberty, not problem with the system going grade based, just NOT in youth. Sorry to take your advantage away...

No, the problem is trying to get into a top university on your own, without the help of the coach. Your view is that of a glass half empty. Most on here would view it as a glass half full.

Well that doesn’t make sense at all.

US Soccer and Hockey run the nationwide tournaments. They also control the State, Regional and National level teams. If a kid wants to play on any of these teams, they must play under the banner of a US Soccer or Hockey Club. If they play in any other club or are caught breaking rules, they are disqualified from the state or higher level teams. There is no penalty for not playing under US LAcrosse rules at a club level.

As a college coach who are you going to take, an 18 or 19 yo kid away from home for the first time or a grad transfer who has already shown they can play?

The OP is right. If your kid's lacrosse ability outstrips his academic ability, he has nothing to lose; so the glass is half full. The closer your kid's academic ability gets to his lacrosse ability, the more the glass is half empty.

The coach's help is not getting you into a top college, your grades, SAT, and lacrosse abilities are. Please don't post the opinions of "most" because you have no idea what "most" of us think.