BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums NORTHEAST LACROSSE BOTC MAIN FORUM (LI, CT, WC) 2018-2019 Women's DI, II & III College Lacrosse Season

Easy ND and Florida, grossly underachieve every year

Women’s Lacrosse Division I Rankings 4-22-2019

Rank Institution Points FPV Record Last Poll
1 Boston College 625 25 17-0 1
2 Maryland 600 0 16-0 2
3 North Carolina 571 0 12-3 3
4 Syracuse 540 0 14-3 5
5 Northwestern 532 0 11-4 6
6 Notre Dame 502 0 13-3 4
7 Virginia 473 0 12-5 7
8 Michigan 445 0 14-2 8
9 James Madison 417 0 14-3 9
10 Princeton 389 0 11-3 11
11 Loyola 388 0 12-4 10
12 Penn 348 0 10-4 12
13 Navy (USNA) 298 0 13-3 14
14 Denver 273 0 12-2 15
15 Duke 265 0 9-7 13
16 Stony Brook 251 0 11-4 17
17 Southern California 241 0 14-3 16
18 Florida 199 0 10-6 18
19 Dartmouth 193 0 10-4 20
20 Stanford 172 0 12-4 19
21 Virginia Tech 110 0 8-9 22
22 Colorado 99 0 9-6 23
23 Johns Hopkins 69 0 10-6 21
24 Georgetown 51 0 9-7 24
25 High Point 33 0 13-4 25
RV Penn State 7-7 NR

Women’s Lacrosse Division II Rankings 4-22-2019

Rank Institution Points FPV Record Last Poll
1 Le Moyne 625 25 15-0 1
2 Adelphi 596 0 14-1 2
3 Rollins 566 0 14-1 3
4 Regis (Colorado) 553 0 15-0 4
5 Florida Southern 527 0 15-2 5
6 Tampa 490 0 12-3 6
7 West Chester 484 0 13-2 7
8 LIU Post 435 0 12-3 9
9 Lindenwood (MO) 432 0 14-1 8
10 Queens (North Carolina) 407 0 15-2 10
11 UIndy 376 0 15-1 12
12 Limestone 345 0 15-2 13
13 Mercy 306 0 12-4 14
14 East Stroudsburg 293 0 12-4 11
15 Colorado Mesa 282 0 12-2 15
16 New Haven 246 0 10-5 16
17 Pace 225 0 9-6 19
18 Assumption 193 0 11-4 17
19 New York Tech 163 0 12-3 20
20 Bentley 146 0 9-5 21
21 Merrimack 129 0 7-7 18
22 Grand Valley State 94 0 11-3 23
T-23 Mount Olive 51 0 12-5 24
T-23 Mercyhurst 51 0 10-5 NR
25 Saint Leo 49 0 13-4 22
RV Indiana (Pennsylvania) 9-5 25

Women’s Lacrosse Division III Rankings 4-22-2019

Rank Institution Points FPV Record Last Poll
1 Washington and Lee 613 19 13-2 1
2 Gettysburg 600 3 13-1 2
3 Middlebury 584 3 13-1 3
4 Franklin & Marshall 543 0 12-3 4
5 Tufts 523 0 13-1 5
6 Salisbury 506 0 14-2 6
7 Wesleyan (CT) 464 0 12-2 8
8 York (PA) 458 0 11-5 9
9 Mary Washington 427 0 13-3 7
10 Catholic 388 0 11-4 10
11 Amherst 383 0 10-4 11
12 St. John Fisher 350 0 13-1 13
13 Bowdoin 316 0 9-5 14
T-14 Colby 286 0 8-5 16
T-14 William Smith 286 0 14-2 15
16 Trinity (CT) 259 0 9-5 12
17 TCNJ 231 0 9-5 17
18 University of Scranton 196 0 13-2 20
19 Colorado College 146 0 15-1 21
20 SUNY Cortland 129 0 9-5 18
21 Ithaca 127 0 10-5 19
22 Dickinson 85 0 10-4 23
23 Bates 71 0 8-6 22
24 SUNY Geneseo 65 0 11-4 NR
25 Washington College 33 0 11-4 24

I could think of a couple of dozen schools that would take either coach. I mean the real bad coaches

Syracuse has not been playing like a # 4 Team. I think they will lose to Virginia in the ACC Tournament.

Happy to see Michigan doing so well, It is good for the sport to have a non-traditional power ranked in the Top 10. I think in order to stay in the Top 10 they will have to win a Big 10 Tournament game. Although Michigan is good I don't think they will finish the year as a Top 10 Team.

James Madison is still riding the wave from 2018... JMU Not Top 10.

We will see what Duke does Vs Notre Dame in the ACC but I think they are too high at 15.

Not Sure that Penn State deserves consideration at 7 - 7 and Hopkins is questionable as well.

At this point, Dartmouth, Florida, USC and Stony Brook are all playing well and are capable of beating just about anyone (maybe not BC or MD).

Good chance we will see a surprise (maybe two) in the Final Four.

Good luck to all the teams.

Obviously you have an ax to grind with a particular coach so why not just get it off your chest. Also, define "worst". The worst recruiter? The worst at identifying talent? The worst with X's and O's? The worst in terms of leadership ? The worst at getting the most out of their players? The worst at game preparation?

What is your issue?

How about the best coaches?

in no particular order?

Cindy Timchal - Navy
Kelly Amonte - Northwestern
Cathy Reese - Maryland
Chris Sailer - Princeton
Acacia Walker - Boston College

Current RPI Rankings:


1 Maryland Big Ten 16-0 9-0 0-0 7-0 0-0
2 Boston College ACC 17-0 6-0 0-0 11-0 0-0
3 North Carolina ACC 12-3 5-2 0-0 7-1 0-0
4 Virginia ACC 12-5 5-3 0-0 7-2 0-0
5 Syracuse ACC 14-3 3-2 0-0 11-1 0-0
6 Northwestern Big Ten 11-4 5-2 0-0 6-2 0-0
7 Princeton Ivy League 11-3 4-2 0-0 7-1 0-0
8 Michigan Big Ten 14-2 5-2 0-0 9-0 0-0
9 Southern California Pac-12 14-3 7-2 0-0 7-1 0-0
10 Notre Dame ACC 13-3 6-2 0-0 7-1 0-0
11 Loyola Maryland Patriot 12-4 4-4 0-0 8-0 0-0
12 Florida AAC 10-6 7-2 0-0 3-4 0-0
13 Navy Patriot 13-3 4-2 0-0 9-1 0-0
14 Dartmouth Ivy League 10-4 4-3 0-0 6-1 0-0
15 Denver Big East 12-2 8-1 0-0 4-1 0-0
16 Penn St. Big Ten 7-7 3-4 0-0 4-3 0-0
17 Penn Ivy League 10-4 5-2 0-0 5-2 0-0
18 James Madison CAA 14-3 5-1 1-0 8-2 0-0
19 Johns Hopkins Big Ten 10-6 4-1 0-0 6-5 0-0
20 Stanford Pac-12 12-4 6-1 0-0 6-3 0-0
21 Stony Brook America East 11-4 6-2 0-0 5-2 0-0
22 Massachusetts Atlantic 10 14-3 5-2 2-0 7-1 0-0
23 Colorado Pac-12 9-6 6-0 0-0 3-6 0-0
24 Georgetown Big East 9-7 4-4 0-0 5-3 0-0
25 Liberty ASUN 11-4 6-2 0-0 5-2 0-0
26 Hofstra CAA 10-6 5-2 1-0 4-4 0-0
27 Richmond Atlantic 10 14-3 7-2 0-0 7-1 0-0
28 Duke ACC 9-7 4-4 0-0 5-3 0-0
29 High Point Big South 13-4 5-2 0-1 8-1 0-0
30 Army West Point Patriot 12-4 5-3 0-0 7-1 0-0
31 Virginia Tech ACC 8-9 2-5 0-0 6-4 0-0
32 Jacksonville ASUN 13-3 4-2 0-0 9-1 0-0
33 Vanderbilt AAC 10-4 4-4 0-0 6-0 0-0
34 Boston U. Patriot 11-5 6-3 0-0 5-2 0-0
35 Mount St. Mary's NEC 13-2 6-1 0-0 7-1 0-0
36 Villanova Big East 10-6 6-3 0-0 4-3 0-0
37 Fairfield MAAC 13-3 6-1 0-0 7-2 0-0
38 Ohio St. Big Ten 9-7 2-3 1-1 6-3 0-0
39 Towson CAA 6-9 1-6 0-0 5-3 0-0
40 Harvard Ivy League 6-8 2-6 0-0 4-2 0-0
41 Wagner NEC 11-3 4-3 0-0 7-0 0-0
42 Cornell Ivy League 8-6 4-4 0-0 4-2 0-0
43 George Mason Atlantic 10 11-6 5-6 0-0 6-0 0-0
44 Louisville ACC 5-12 2-7 0-0 3-5 0-0
45 Saint Joseph's Atlantic 10 10-7 3-6 0-0 7-1 0-0
46 San Diego St. MPSF 9-7 0-6 3-0 6-1 0-0
47 Albany (NY) America East 9-6 3-5 0-0 6-1 0-0
48 Coastal Caro. ASUN 12-4 4-3 0-0 8-1 0-0
49 Brown Ivy League 7-7 2-5 0-0 5-2 0-0
50 UC Davis MPSF 9-7 3-5 2-1 4-1 0-0
51 William & Mary CAA 6-8 4-5 0-0 2-3 0-0
52 Rutgers Big Ten 5-10 2-4 0-0 3-6 0-0
53 California Pac-12 6-11 3-4 0-2 3-5 0-0
54 Cincinnati AAC 10-5 1-4 0-0 9-1 0-0
55 Lehigh Patriot 7-8 2-4 1-0 4-4 0-0
56 Monmouth MAAC 12-5 7-3 0-0 5-2 0-0
57 Marquette Big East 8-8 5-5 0-0 3-3 0-0
58 Duquesne Atlantic 10 9-7 4-2 0-0 5-5 0-0
59 Manhattan MAAC 11-5 4-3 0-0 7-2 0-0
60 Elon CAA 4-11 1-6 0-0 3-5 0-0
61 VCU Atlantic 10 7-9 0-5 1-0 6-4 0-0
62 Columbia Ivy League 4-10 3-2 0-1 1-7 0-0
63 Siena MAAC 10-6 7-3 0-0 3-3 0-0
64 Robert Morris NEC 10-4 6-3 0-0 4-1 0-0
65 Fresno St. MPSF 7-6 2-4 2-0 3-2 0-0
66 Colgate Patriot 6-9 3-5 0-0 3-4 0-0
67 Delaware CAA 7-9 5-3 0-0 2-6 0-0
68 Bryant NEC 7-7 3-3 0-0 4-4 0-0
69 Marist MAAC 7-9 4-5 0-0 3-4 0-0
70 Temple AAC 5-10 4-4 0-0 1-6 0-0
71 New Hampshire America East 10-5 6-3 0-0 4-2 0-0
72 Furman SoCon 9-7 2-4 0-0 7-3 0-0
73 Davidson Atlantic 10 8-9 4-4 0-0 4-5 0-0
74 Drexel CAA 6-9 4-4 0-0 2-5 0-0
75 Arizona St. Pac-12 6-11 2-5 0-0 4-6 0-0
76 Yale Ivy League 6-8 1-6 0-0 5-2 0-0
77 UConn AAC 2-14 0-8 0-1 2-5 0-0
78 Campbell Big South 6-10 3-5 0-0 3-5 0-0
79 American Patriot 7-9 3-5 0-0 4-4 0-0
80 Kennesaw St. ASUN 7-9 3-5 0-0 4-4 0-0
81 UMBC America East 6-10 4-4 0-0 2-6 0-0
82 George Washington Atlantic 10 5-12 1-7 0-0 4-5 0-0
83 Vermont America East 7-7 6-2 0-0 1-5 0-0
84 Old Dominion Big East 3-13 0-8 0-0 3-5 0-0
85 Oregon Pac-12 3-14 0-6 0-3 3-5 0-0
86 La Salle Atlantic 10 5-11 2-5 0-0 3-6 0-0
87 Longwood Big South 8-8 3-6 0-0 5-2 0-0
88 Central Mich. SoCon 7-9 3-6 0-0 4-3 0-0
89 Mercer SoCon 7-9 1-5 0-1 6-3 0-0
90 Bucknell Patriot 4-12 0-7 0-1 4-4 0-0
91 Winthrop Big South 7-10 3-5 0-0 4-5 0-0
92 East Carolina AAC 5-11 2-6 0-0 3-5 0-0
93 Canisius MAAC 2-14 0-10 0-0 2-4 0-0
94 Holy Cross Patriot 4-11 2-7 0-0 2-4 0-0
95 Detroit Mercy SoCon 7-8 3-6 0-0 4-2 0-0
96 Quinnipiac MAAC 5-11 4-6 0-0 1-5 0-0
97 Lafayette Patriot 5-11 3-6 0-0 2-5 0-0
98 Niagara MAAC 5-12 3-6 0-1 2-5 0-0
99 Butler Big East 3-13 1-7 0-0 2-6 0-0
100 Saint Francis (PA) NEC 4-9 2-7 0-0 2-2 0-0
101 LIU Brooklyn NEC 6-9 2-6 0-1 4-2 0-0
102 Radford Big South 3-11 1-7 0-0 2-4 0-0
103 UMass Lowell America East 4-12 0-9 0-0 3-3 1-0
104 Binghamton America East 2-13 0-7 0-0 2-6 0-0
105 Gardner-Webb Big South 6-10 1-6 0-0 5-4 0-0
106 Sacred Heart NEC 2-12 0-6 0-0 2-6 0-0
107 Stetson ASUN 4-11 2-4 0-0 2-7 0-0
108 Iona MAAC 1-16 1-9 0-0 0-7 0-0
109 Central Conn. St. NEC 2-12 1-6 0-0 1-6 0-0
110 St. Bonaventure Atlantic 10 1-16 1-9 0-0 0-7 0-0
111 Kent St. ASUN 2-14 0-10 0-0 2-4 0-0
112 Presbyterian Big South 1-16 0-11 0-0 1-5 0-0
113 Hartford America East 1-15 1-7 0-0 0-8 0-0
114 Wofford SoCon 4-12 1-6 0-0 3-6 0-0
115 Howard ASUN 0-12 0-8 0-0 0-4 0-0
116 Delaware St. SoCon 1-10 0-5 0-0 1-5 0-0

Just a Question Why so hostile? Lets just say worst all around coach for my daughter, I would like to avoid bad role models, and have her actually learn something more from than just wins or losses, or pick up bad habits

Not hostile at all but I do not think that you are being truthful. Are you telling us that your daughter does not currently play in college? If that is the case, send your daughters film to the 5 coaches listed in one of the previous posts. If your daughter can play then your search is over, they will be fighting over her.

It's about the next 40 years, not the next four unless you're getting a degree in lacrosse go with the best school and best fit

Amonte might be the worst thing that ever happened to girls lacrosse, watching every game from 4th grade through HS ending with a team stalling makes for a horrible sporting event, thank God college has shot clock

No, don't think so. She played to her advantage and won. Any coach who could gain a lead back then would try do do the same thing. Not fun to watch but "the worst thing that ever happened to girls lacrosse" is a bit of a stretch. You could say that she was the best thing that happened to girls lacrosse because the NCAA changed the rules and now the game is more competitive and more enjoyable to watch.

There will be some movement over the next week or so but this should give you an idea of who will receive "at large bids". Wins vs Top 30 RPI Teams as well as your teams own RPI are significant factors when the committee make their selection. How the committee weighs each of the criteria is anyones guess, it appears to change every year.


National Participation
There are 115 NCAA member institutions that sponsor Division I Women’s Lacrosse teams and are eligible to compete in the National Championship. All 115 programs support more than 3,100 women's lacrosse student-athletes across the country.

Selection Process
The championship provides for a field of 28 teams to compete in a single-elimination tournament. Fifteen conference champions qualify automatically; the balance of the field is selected at-large by the NCAA Division I Women’s Lacrosse Committee. The top eight teams in the 28-team bracket for the championship are seeded. The top six teams receive first-round byes.

Selection Show | Sunday, May 5, 2019 on NCAA.com, 9 p.m. Eastern
The 2019 NCAA Division I Women’s Lacrosse Championship bracket will be announced the first weekend in May prior to opening-round competition.

Opening Round | May 7 or 8, 2019
Two, two-team opening-round games will be conducted at non-predetermined campus sites. The winning team from each game will advance to the first round.

First Round | May 10, 2019
Ten, two-team first-round games will be conducted at non-predetermined campus sites. The winning team from each game will advance to the second round.

Second Round | May 12, 2019
Eight, two-team second-round games will be conducted at non-predetermined campus sites. The winning team from each game will advance to the quarterfinals.

Quarterfinals | May 18 or 19, 2019
Four, two-team, single-elimination quarterfinals games will be conducted at non-predetermined campus sites. The winning team from each of the four quarterfinals will advance to the championship final site.

National Championship | May 24 and 26, 2019
The site of the 2019 Women’s Lacrosse Championship is Homewood Field at Johns Hopkins University. Two, two-team single-elimination semifinals games will be held Friday, May 24, at 5 and 7:30 p.m. Eastern. The two teams winning in the semifinals will advance and compete in the single-elimination national championship game which will take place Sunday, May 26, at Noon Eastern.

First off, I don't care if a hammerhead like you believes me or not. You are obviously on of those fathers that judge there daughter on there Lacrosse Skills rather than there personality. Secondly out of the 3100 girls that play D1, only 540 will play on the top 20 teams, that leave 2,560 girls in D1 alone that will play for other coaches and that doesn't even take into consideration D2 or D3. Now I know only the parents of the 540 post on this site, I was just hoping to get some feedback from other parents of the other 95 coaches. Now I know that everyone likes to talk about the best coaches (or there opinion of who that is through there extensive Lacrosse Knowledge), but chances are my daughter will not play for one of those 20 top coaches, and seeing as the coaches have a huge impact on a lacrosse players college experience, I was just looking for the names of coaches that should be avoided. I implore you If you don't agree with my on this, just keep your opinion to yourself, but if you could just answer the simple question , It would be greatly appreciated

Such as?

Such as?

So Amonte should be thanked for making the sport so unwatchable (and her legacy continues today from PAL-HS) that they had to change the rules? Please, tell us what you think has been worse for girls lacrosse?

I was wrong. Syracuse holds on to beat Virginia. Maybe they had an off day vs Cornell. Go Cuse.

Its not that easy to make a list of worst (or best) coach.. 25+ kids on each team you're gonna get 25+ different opinions..
what opinion of a coach ( insert the best of the best coach here) do you think you're gonna get from a senior who was benched so that a freshman can play..
the best you can do is meet them yourself face to face and talk..

How does ND lose to Duke? COACHING

Very one dimensional O. No in game adjustments. COACHING! That loss may mean they will have to travel for NCAA tournament.

Agree.

So, I guess it was the Notre Dame Coaches who deserve all of the credit for beating Duke just ten days ago.

Duke coaches made some adjustments. Kudos Blue Devil coaches!

ND has a much better roster for starters. Second time around somebody adjusted and somebody didn't - good coaches adjust, bad coaches don't...

[/quote]

ND has a much better roster for starters. Second time around somebody adjusted and somebody didn't - good coaches adjust, bad coaches don't...[/quote]

Better roster? according to who? Again, first time it was all because of the players and the second time it was all coaching? Tell us, did Notre Dame not recruit your daughter or does she play there and you believe that she is so incredible that if they do not win it must be the coaches fault.

UC Davis
William & Mary
Rutgers
California
Cincinnati
Lehigh
Monmouth
Marquette
Duquesne
Manhattan
Elon
VCU
Columbia
Siena
Robert Morris
Fresno St.
Colgate
Delaware
Bryant
Marist
Temple
New Hampshire
Furman
Davidson
Drexel
Arizona St.
Yale
UConn
Campbell
American
Kennesaw St.
UMBC
George Washington
Vermont
Old Dominion
Oregon
La Salle
Longwood
Central Mich.
Mercer
Bucknell
Winthrop
East Carolina
Canisius
Holy Cross
Detroit Mercy
Quinnipiac
Lafayette
Niagara
Butler
Saint Francis (PA)
LIU Brooklyn
Radford
UMass Lowell
Binghamton
Gardner-Webb
Sacred Heart
Stetson
Iona
Central Conn. St.
St. Bonaventure
Kent St.
Presbyterian
Hartford
Wofford
Howard
Delaware St.

ND has a much better roster for starters. Second time around somebody adjusted and somebody didn't - good coaches adjust, bad coaches don't...[/quote]

Better roster? according to who? Again, first time it was all because of the players and the second time it was all coaching? Tell us, did Notre Dame not recruit your daughter or does she play there and you believe that she is so incredible that if they do not win it must be the coaches fault.[/quote]

If your touted as having the top recruiting class (or one of them) in the country every year then it must be coaching not holding up their end of the bargain

Do you think they would in any way change those schools? If they can't get it done with top recruits in the country what kind of success would they have at these schools? If winning a championship is what you and your kid went to college for I'm sorry but you chose to play for coaches that can't get it done

Agree completely, they choke with teams that you just need to roll out the ball bag. If they really had to coach they would really be exposed. I could win a ton of games coaching ND just get out of the way and let the athletes takeover. That's not coaching

Better roster? according to who? Again, first time it was all because of the players and the second time it was all coaching? Tell us, did Notre Dame not recruit your daughter or does she play there and you believe that she is so incredible that if they do not win it must be the coaches fault.[/quote]

If your touted as having the top recruiting class (or one of them) in the country every year then it must be coaching not holding up their end of the bargain[/quote]

Recruiting is a big part of coaching. If they are getting good players then they are doing something right. I would say they are doing a better job the 90% of the coaches.

If your touted as having the top recruiting class (or one of them) in the country every year then it must be coaching not holding up their end of the bargain[/quote]

Recruiting is a big part of coaching. If they are getting good players then they are doing something right. I would say they are doing a better job the 90% of the coaches.
[/quote]

The University of Notre Dame sells itself. Coach doesn't have to sell it. Recruiting players to go there is easy. Ybe8f4

Recruiting is a big part of coaching. If they are getting good players then they are doing something right. I would say they are doing a better job the 90% of the coaches.
[/quote]

The University of Notre Dame sells itself. Coach doesn't have to sell it. Recruiting players to go there is easy. Ybe8f4
[/quote]

Wrong. The coach absolutely has to sell The University of Notre Dame. Take a look at the current Top 20 Women's DI Teams. A lot of players choose to go to schools other the ND. Notre Dame does not get every player that they want. In addition to many of the Top 20 schools there are several other schools that many players would choose over ND. Many factors enter the picture when selecting a college and program.

1 Boston College 625 25 17-0 1
2 Maryland 600 0 16-0 2
3 North Carolina 571 0 12-3 3
4 Syracuse 540 0 14-3 5
5 Northwestern 532 0 11-4 6
6 Notre Dame 502 0 13-3 4
7 Virginia 473 0 12-5 7
8 Michigan 445 0 14-2 8
9 James Madison 417 0 14-3 9
10 Princeton 389 0 11-3 11
11 Loyola 388 0 12-4 10
12 Penn 348 0 10-4 12
13 Navy (USNA) 298 0 13-3 14
14 Denver 273 0 12-2 15
15 Duke 265 0 9-7 13
16 Stony Brook 251 0 11-4 17
17 Southern California 241 0 14-3 16
18 Florida 199 0 10-6 18
19 Dartmouth 193 0 10-4 20
20 Stanford 172 0 12-4 19
21 Virginia Tech 110 0 8-9 22
22 Colorado 99 0 9-6 23
23 Johns Hopkins 69 0 10-6 21
24 Georgetown 51 0 9-7 24
25 High Point 33 0 13-4 25
RV Penn State 7-7 NR

There are

Better roster? according to who? Again, first time it was all because of the players and the second time it was all coaching? Tell us, did Notre Dame not recruit your daughter or does she play there and you believe that she is so incredible that if they do not win it must be the coaches fault.[/quote]

If your touted as having the top recruiting class (or one of them) in the country every year then it must be coaching not holding up their end of the bargain[/quote]

Pretty sure that I have read on this site many times that "recruit rankings" are a joke and they are meaningless.... The reality is, The Notre Dame Coach does a good job recruiting and they constantly finish the season ranked in the Top 20. They are currently Top 10 and they are having a good year. Maybe She is not the best coach but she is far from the worst.

Maybe ND & Florida recruiting consists too much of looking at ridiculous rankings and listening to YJ and Steps coaches. It's called a crutch, in the event things don't workout their answer is "but IL and UA and club directors all said these were can't miss kids" - lazy recruiting and bad coaching will never win anything

When it comes to recruiting at ND kids either really want to be there or they don't, very unique situation, but they certainly have the ability to get great players regardless of who's coaching

What is unique about it?

A lot of schools have the ability to get great players regardless of who is coaching.