BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums NORTHEAST LACROSSE BOTC MAIN FORUM (LI, CT, WC) Bypassing Middle School Lax for Club Team

2 of the 6 just got kicked out of Harvard due to their involvement in the cheating scandal. The girls goalie from GC at Harvard also got kicked out too so maybe you should ease up on the GC lovefest.

They all went on to play for fl$ - check it

The topic here is whether to bypass middle school for a club, and the point made was there's a recent example of success where the boys on a great high school team came from both.

What does football, 1972 and the time spent on ranking a team have to do with any of this?

fl$ = Jahelka

So if that's where they later went, not surprising.

Please educate yourself before such making slanderous statements. You've fallen prey to mob media mentality

Questions follow.

[1] Are they attending Harvard right now or not? If they are, the statement is in error. If they are not, the statement is accurate. In neither case would that be slander. This story has been reported in a very factual format from both the Boston Globe and local news reports.

[2] Is your expectation that they will rejoin Harvard at some time in the future? This is a personal choice of each student-athlete to reapply in the normal judicial process.

[3] Do you think that Harvard is expecting them to rejoin? You see, this is the most important question. Would you suspect that Harvard is looking to continue this story or bring it to closure?

I am always amazed by how hatful, resentful and jealous some of the posters are on this site.

I had a simple question.

Did the boys listed choose to play and train 'only" with a “Club” team during their JHS years?

Maligning young people in a bad (and suspect) situation publicly may not be slander, just pathetic.

My first reaction was "good" throw the cheaters out. But on closer review this "cheating scandal" is pretty weak. But that topic is addresses elsewhere on this board.

From my understanding the cheating scandal at Harvard involved many athletes, not just lacrosse players. From what it looks like what the kids did was no different than other kids have been doing for years and the Professor involved all of a sudden took exception and made a complaint. Its not suprising given a good portion of academia's attitude towards athletics that athletes were singled out and punished in this case. At the very least the details of this case seem sketchy. Im going to give the kids the benefit of the doubt on this one.

These kids are exceptional scholar-athletes. Please do not discredit their accomplishments based on an open book, no-show 'gut' course. Harvard administration was out to get the professor who they felt was a bit too relaxed in his teaching standards. Unfortunately 125 students got caught in the middle. You should only hope your own childern have some of their success.

They may be exceptional scholar-athletes but, they also cheated & got caught. Do not make excuses for these ADULTS. It was a take home, open book test. How much easier could it have been? It specifically stated to do the work individually & unfortunately they chose to share their answers. I am sure they were & still will be successful but, they need to take responsibility for their actions!

It is disgraceful that some ppl actually take joy in their misfortune....hopefully these talented scholar-athletes can learn from their mistakes and move forward.

Seems weird to me that 100+ Harvard students (30% or more of the students enrolled in this class) would choose this take home, open book, gut course exam as the time to "cheat". These students don't have to cheat to succeed (even the athletes who might not otherwise have been admitted), and the sheer numbers involved points to a mistake or misunderstanding, especially in an academic environment that has been encouraging "collaboration" for the last 30 years.

I'm sure the faction in the administration that believes there should be no admissions exceptions for athletes, ground their axes when they realized a number of athletes were involved.

It appears all these students can apply for readmission, and perhaps many will be back at Harvard in the future. However, I doubt those who were admitted based in part on their athletic prowess will get the same consideration the next time around.

People need to take responsibility for their actions, but there may be more going on here. I'm sure far worse has gone unpunished at Harvard.

Why do find it weird that 30% cheated? You stated that you were sure that far worse has gone unpunished at Harvard. The easy way presented itself & these students chose to take it. 70% chose to follow the rules.

Im sure these are wonderful, talented young adults but, they made a choice. It's difficult to read some of these posts (& articles) pointing a finger @ the professor or the university. When do parents step back and say "my kid made a mistake & he/she has to live with that". Sure it is embarassing & it probably isnt in the student athletes nature but, first semester (or third) @ a high pressure university, on top of the rigour of full time sport is a tough place to be. That was an easy answer to one final. They made a poor choice and now have to live with that.

According to the Harvard Admissions Web Site Statistics for the Class of 2016, 1665 students enrolled for classes in September. Figuring that is the size of the average year at the institution, 100 students is a very small population from the entire undergraduate base of some 6400 students. Still, we are talking about 1.5% of the enrolled total student body.

There are two strongly warring factions involved here : a University "Honor Code" for exams and the idea of collaboration, particularly on a take-home final examination. Based on various academics with whom BOTC has discussed this subject, whether you more strongly support an "Honor Code" or the take-home final concept dictates how you see this issue.

Actually, the investigation took placed based on an audit of consistently worded answers across exam booklets, not due to athletics.

Will the institution open this debate for a second time? Will these students (not just student-athletes) now need to compete with the entire transfer pool for admission? Unless agreements which are not public were agreed prior to the expulsions, BOTC doubts that any more than 25% of these students will be re-accepted.

Comparing this situation against other "unpunished" or "unidentified" rules infractions shows a lack of rigor. If such were the baseline for a society of laws, no one would ever be convicted in the court system as there will always be some one "who got away with it".

Whether or not cheating actually took place in this course, the ultimate question at stake here is one of ETHICS. The school feels that there was a breach of ETHICAL behavior by the students involved for either excessive collaboration or outright cheating. The students felt that such collaboration on a final exam was considered ETHICAL (or so goes the argument) and therefore went without question.

So, a question for our readers : when the students were asked for the names of individuals with whom they worked on the exam, were the names provided? Based on what we have read in the media, not very many students were forthcoming with this information. Limited reporting? Perhaps.

In closing, if the students truly believed that their behavior and actions were ETHICAL, would there have been any hesitancy in identifying the study-group members?

Now, can we prove either side of this debate? Absolutely not based on the publicly disclosed information. However it is fairly clear that that University's inquisition did not provide adequate answers from the students to explain the ETHICAL nature of the results.

I'll stand by my view ... I don't think it likely that 100 Harvard students (or Yale students, or Rutgers students) out of a sample of 280 would all cheat at the same time, on an open book take home exam, in a gut course, when there was absolutely no need to cheat. Not looking to excuse bad behavior, but under these facts those numbers point more to a misunderstanding or mistake (more so than the assumption that all 100 "took the easy way out" on what was already an easy exam).

Maybe they were cheating all through High School and were not caught until now.

National rankings mean absolutely nothing when it comes to HS teams and very little when it comes to players. How much time, effort and resources do you think goes into something like ranking HS teams? The answer is very, very little [/quote]

I was wondering when someone would come on here and throw this GC # 1 thing around. It's too bad this win-at-all-costs philosphy is now infecting school sports.

Amen. They can't even get the colleges right, why should anybody take any stock in a high school "ranking" unless there's an actual playoff system like the NCAAs. This is a phenomenon thats developed only in the past 10 years and its an absolute joke - on all of us. And, its bad for the kids too - they start believing it and either go into a game over confident or already mentally defeated because of this BS. Unfortunately the genie is out of the bottle on this one.

what do you do when they start eliminating 7th/8th grade teams due to budget cuts. My school district had and A and B team. It looks like the B team is getting dropped. Just found out last week. Any ideas for supplement team play. His summer travel team does not offer spring league.

One of three options will be an outcome from the cutting of middle (modified) school sports.

The first is that the school district itself will form a pay-for-play structure similar to what district parents will form when an austerity budget is employed and a sports program requires saving. In this case, the funds for the entire team(s) must be raised to avoid just individual players paying.

The second option is that external programs involving middle school (sixth, seventh, eighth graders depending on the district) students will blossom during the Spring season. Here, you will have individual players in a pay-for-play situation.

The third outcome will be an earlier culling of marginal or lightly interested players from the sport resulting in a smaller field of players from which to choose at the High School age groups.

The most likely outcome will be the second of these three options.

In your case, your club team might not have a Spring program but there are many that do and there are training camps throughout the season advertised here on BOTC. Many of these options should prove suitable for your family and/or budget.

Not to sound silly, but there is also a thing called a "pick-up" game ... why not have the players pull together some school yard games themselves?

In our District the two team program was eliminated 4 years ago. My son's grade was the first early culled group. As a result, he is one of only 9 field players and 2 goalies left playing. This is down from 43 kids and two PAL teams when they were in 6th grade. Very sad to see. Some of the kids grew late, and some didn't play travel. There are some of them that are now big strong kids. Others are now part of small group that hang out before school and have their smokes... Not sure if this is a by product of early cuts, but I'm sure it didn't help.

most schools have a no cut policy for 7/8th grade teams and it is equally horrible to watch - 50 kids, five quarters of subbing the entire team out after each one, every kid gets 8-9 minutes - ridiculous. lets just face the fact that all middle school sports are pretty much a waste of time do to the whole PC thing that goes on regarding cuts, some schools even carry that policy on throught HS

I was one of the pro-middle school parents posting here before ... and now that we're half way through, my opinion has totally changed. So far, almost a complete waste of time, and we're in one of the best lax towns.

The boys can all play. The issue is with the coaching ... my son's coach forgets who plays what positions, and has no idea how to manage the talent he has. Worse, he has what can only be described as a poor understanding of the game. For example, he criticizes the wrong players on mistakes -- yelling at a kid who makes a good pass that was missed, instead of the kid who took the pass off his facemask, etc. He's mad when kids take open shots, but calls for passes to kids who are clearly covered. Defense is a complete mystery to him -- no communication at all to that end of the field.

What little communication he has appears to be confusing the boys and sending the wrong message. It's not a total disaster (yet), but you can already see he is turning some of the boys away from the game.

Thankfully his travel team has a coach who understands the game and appears to care.

Most, if not all Middle School coaches have never picked up a lacrosse stick. They coach for the money. They don't care about wins or losses. Once they become a coach it is very hard to have them removed. But fear not, the future of Long Island Middle School Sports will disappear within the next 5 years. With school districts starting to be in major budget toubles, MS Sports will be the first thing to go. All sports club teams, not just LAX, will become very important.

My son just got an invite for a new travel football team for13 and 14 year olds, that is based on the same business model as the club lax teams....somebody sees the wave of the future of middle school sports!!

Well, with just a couple of games left, I can say middle school lax wasn't so great. My son played a lot, but coaching was no better than PAL. Coach gets mad at offensive players for dodging and going to the cage??? Even when "plays" are not working.
The only positive is the kids play together with their friends.
I hate to say it, but I can see this MS stuff going away. If the travel teams start offering an alternative, it will be hard to justify playing MS. I even believe it won't be too far off when kids start bagging HS for Club. It's already happening with soccer. If you're in a so-so lax district, it might be a better option?

Middle School Sports is horrendous these days because it's not about the best players playing like it used to be for ALL school sports. Now everyone plays and most schools don't even cut.

My sons school team is mediocre at best yet they are 7-0. The teams they play can't even catch the ball. There have been entire games played where the other team hasn't gotten a shot on goal. Not because of how good the defense is but strictly due to how bad the players are. It's terrible for the strong players on our team because they rarely get to play more than a few minutes due to the scores being out of hand and the coach playing the weakest kids for 3 quarters.

You will not see the GC's, Farmingdales, etc... giving up the MS or HS lax programs. Anyone who says that see that coming, isn't from a LAX town.

I can only speak for my son. My son plays on a very competitive club team and got playing time on his school 1st quarter/3rd quarter squad. While the training wasn't great and the 5 Qs are a pain in the a$$, he spent every day playing with his friends from school and having fun!

You should all know there isn't much scholarship money in LAX,if a kid gets recruited in 10th grade and gets a $10k scholarship to a $50k school, he is doing very well. The sport is about fun and learning, not about scholarships. As far as I am concerned, it was a great experience for my kid because he enjoyed it, nothing else matters.

That's what the guy said. If your from a "so-so lax district". Sadly, there are many really good players that have to play in bad programs, MS and HS. Not only that, what about all those kids at GC and F'dale that are great players and don't really get much time? On many teams they would start. Quite frankly, they would be better served on a club team. Instead of going to practice everyday and not playing so much. I guess they're with their friends... Who knows.

Everybody knows the scholarship deal. However, from the posts above it seems that there are some really bad situations out in lax land. Those kids might be happier with an alternative option in the spring. Just saying...

I'm from Farmingdale and even though its a strong lax town I predict within 5 years there won't be any middle school sports. I remember when they got rid of 9th grade teams in the 90's and then 7th grade sports 2 yrs ago. The next step is all of middle school sports.

What are you the Superintendent.

Does anyone the exact middles school lax rules? I hear that most schools play 5 quarter games but my sons team only played 2 5 quarter games last year and 1 this year. The other games were normal 4 quarter games where the best players played most if not all of the game.

Well that is where East Islip is at now, no middle school sports. Then again their high school program is horrible so I guess it is no big loss. These kids will go play club lacrosse earlier and before you know it the high school program won't exist either.

What I heard when my kids played MS was that it depended on team size. If the teams were small enough (ha! a rare occurance) then you only played 4 quarters. It was all about making sure everyone had enough playing time and if they felt that had been accomplished in 4 quarters then the game ended.

I don't know the exact number for each sport, but it depends on how many players are on each team. From my experience on the girls side, it seems like schools that have two teams only play 4 Q's and the ones with only one team, and are therefore overloaded, play 5. Both teams have to have the minimum number to play the 5th quarter.

The responses regarding team size are largely on target. If you go to BOTC's Rules and Regulations Forum, you will find the NYSPHSAA Handbook for 2012-2014. Starting on Page 133 in the Handbook, you will find complete coverage of Modified Sports.

In part, you will find the following:

6. EXTENDED PLAYING TIME: Eligibility for play in an extended playing time should be determined on the basis of the following participation standards:
a) Players with no participation in the regular game/contest should be eligible for play in an extended playing time.
b) Players whose participation in the regular contest was limited, i.e., their total participation was no more than one-half of the regular playing periods/quarters shall also be eligible for play in an extended playing time.
c) Limited participation shall be further defined to mean that entry into a playing period rather than actual playing time shall constitute "participation" in the regulation contest.

Optional Plan for use at the league or Section level: If a team has fewer than the minimum number of players to play the 5 period concept the following game rules will apply.

A 4 quarter game will be played with the number of minutes being increased for each quarter (see chart); however no player may play more than 3 quarters (*see exception). This will apply provided the team has a sufficient numbers of players so as not to exceed the NYSPHSAA regulated playing time allocation for each sport (see following chart).

The table mentioned has the following information.

Boys Lacrosse
Time Limit - Regulation Game : 9 Minute Quarters
Time Limit - Five Period Play : 9 Minute Periods
Time Limit - Four Quarter, Extended Play : 11 Minute Quarters
Minimum Number Of Players Needed for Extended Four Quarter Play : 14

Girls Lacrosse
Time Limit - Regulation Game : 25 Minute Halves
Time Limit - Five Period Play : 12 Minute Periods
Time Limit - Four Quarter, Extended Play : 15 Minute Quarters
Minimum Number Of Players Needed for Extended Four Quarter Play : 16

In boys’ and girls’ lacrosse and in girls' field hockey, if a team has only one goal keeper that goal keeper may play in all periods of 4 Quarter Extended Play or in all periods of 5 Period Play. Except for the goal keeper, the "time" allocated for the game will not be extended. All players except for the goal keeper will follow the 4 quarter or 5 periods extended playing time format and are therefore only eligible to play 3 periods.

Middle school lacrosse is atrocious and if your son is a good club lacrosse player it will only hurt his development. They let anyone play, the officiating is horrendous, if they sneeze on each other its a penalty. If it wasnt mandatory for my son to play in my town, he would skip it in a second.

Thanks for all of the replies about the MS rules. My sons team has about 40 kids and most of the teams we have played have had similar amounts so I don't understand why the games are 4 quarters. I'm thinking that it's because the scores are usually out of hand by the end of the first but I really don't know.