BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums PENNSYLVANIA LACROSSE PENNSYLVANIA FORUM Boys 2023

Canada beats them all including MD and LI. The Hill School has been embarrassing the best prep teams in MD.

Using 20 year olds....

This is a Philly board, I live in Philly, my son plays lacrosse in Philly, I care that one of the better (if not the best) Philly-based team will get to compete on a national stage. How they rank or Philly ranks against other areas is only important to me on a National board.

Well said

Maryland complaining about using 20 year olds is too funny. They reclass their kids more than Any other area

This is true, and yes they are older. But one good school or one good team hardly dictates the presence of a "hotbed". Put 5 teams in the top 25 and maybe you can be considered. The thing that makes LI special,even more so that's MD, is that there are generally 2, 3, or more PUBLIC schools in those rankings. Not private schools pulling from a 60+ mile radius. When you can get that going, then you are a hotbed.

Hill School just happens to be the premier destination for field lacrosse and Canadian kids wanting to go to elite US schools. However, Culver Academy is also top notch and they are in the discussion because they have Canadian kids attending in droves. I agree with you...I am from Philly and with unbiased perspective believe that Long Island Lacrosse is consistently superior to Maryland. Don't agree with the Public School requirement to be considered a hotbed. To me a hotbed is simply an area that consistently yields top notch talent and nothing more.

The Canadian middle school club teams in the 2021, 2022, and 2023 ages typically get beat by the md and Long Island teams. Edge, Apex, Evolve and Hardcor are good but not great clubs at this age. They may be great at Box,but not on the field.

Likewise for the CT teams (chargers, eclipse).

I agree with but too many of us seem to think that middle school is the apex of this journey. I can't tell you how many middle school stars I have seen sit the bench in the high school and collegiate ranks. To me the end goal for this sport at this time is collegiate level and what prepares you for the collegiate level is high school and in those two areas the Canadians are dominating.

I have been to plenty of box tournaments with Canadian teams where the skills are there and the athleticism is not; however, blend the box skill set with athleticism and that is what the Hill School is doing. The Canadian Invasion in the Collegiate ranks is well chronicled but think about it...how did the Canadian National Team beat the US in the last World Games....in my opinion a major wake up call for US Lacrosse.

Do you think Indiana has awesome teams because that is where Culver is located?

Maryland is the only state where more high school kids play lacrosse than baseball. (6,276 to 5,590). New [lacrosse] high school kids play much more baseball than lacrosse (20,773 to 16,169).

You're comparing Maryland to New [lacrosse], not Long Island. Much like Canada, most New [lacrosse] kids don't play lax. Long Island kids play lax, and they learn it from their grandfathers. That's the difference.

Do you think that Indiana is where Culver is getting their players....maybe you heard of Hopkins and Princeton guess where two of the best players from each team hail from, Culver and yep Ontario

Hey guys. Interesting conversation going on here. I'm from LI so maybe I can share some insight. From my perspective, having a lacrosse culture all starts with your town youth program. How many teams does your son or daughter have access to and when do they begin? Take my town for instance. I'm from a small town in Suffolk county that is not one of the traditional lax powerhouses. We have at least two teams in every grade from kindergarten through 8th grade. The teams cost about $225 for the 10 game winter season (December-march) and $125 for the 8 game spring season (march-June) and the kids practice about 3 days each week with a game on Sunday . We usually enter a few tournaments each spring as well. Most kids also play basketball in the winter and everyone plays football in the fall, so it's not a "all lax all th time" deal. However, if you go to the beach in the summer, you're sure to see every other kid holding a lax stick or busting out the fiddle stick and cage.

Once you have the commitment from the youth league to do everything they can to make it fun, accessible and affordable for ALL kids, that's when you really see the boom.

I just reread my post and need to clarify... the kids don't practice 3x a week in the winter. One practice and one game; indoor space is too expensive,though some teams will supplement with additional practices in school gyms.

So defensive? Glad I don't live in a baseball state like New [lacrosse].

Not defensive at all. But "New [lacrosse]" is not known as a lax state as much as LI is considered a lax region. Most kids in the US play baseball. I'm not certain that the previous posters stats were altogether relevant to the discussion. It's all good though. I'm a LI guy and coach a youth team. 1/2 of my players are missing practice for Little League!

[lacrosse] of a lot of great players not from LI but NY. Ever heard of Powell Brothers, Thompsons, isn't Cannizzaro from upstate Fields from Albany and Reeves from Yale to name a few?

Of course there are. But you named 6, and they are great. But there are 100's upon 100's from LI. This is a losing argument for you.

Perhaps 10 years ago it would have been, not anymore parity is the norm and those 6 i thought of in less than 10'seconds the pendulum is shifting it is inevitable

Those are probaly the only 6 regardless of how long it took u to think of them, once again losing argument..

Not really, my argument is not that LI has plenty of talent which seems to be your only point but rather there is plenty of talent that hails from other parts of NY especially upstate around the Syracuse area nothing more. Additionally, my second point is that as the sport explodes LI will not continue to dominate the elite ranks as it once did. If you choose to remain obtuse to these points that is your business

First of all, there is more than one person posting to the LI perspective. Second, of course the sport is growing! It's an amazing sport and I'm happy that it has been part of my life for the last 38 years. Thirdly, there are great athletes everywhere, and when they find lax they become great lax players, so there will be pockets everywher; Syracuse is a prime example (their Native American population notwithstanding). However, my sons' town teams have played in tournaments up there against club teams and won handily. My point was simply that you were comparing New [lacrosse] State lax numbers instead of LI lax numbers. They're just not relevant to the discussion.

To your point that lax is growing and LI will soon be overshadowed soon; I respectfully disagree. Lacrosse on LI, and Maryland for that matter, is a generation thing. My grandfather played, my father played, I played, my wife played and my sons and daughter play. And that is very common here. I'm sure there are a few Philadelphia guys that can say that, but a handful. Maybe LI will be surpassed, but not in your lifetime or mine.

I actually wasn't the one comparing the LI vs NY numbers there is more than one person posting here. Not knowing your age can't speculate but it will happen in my lifetime. LI and MD will always have a depth of talent, yes, due to generational advantages that can't be surpassed. But the elite offensive talent pendulum is shifting to Canada and that is beyond refute. This coupled with torrid adoption and availability/accessibility to elite coaching will further validate the shift.

Take a look at the scoring leaderboard at the NCAA D1 level and you will see LI well represented; however, non traditional sources as well as Canadian representation is disproportional to your point. I don't include defense talent in this discussion but I am confident that would further skew the numbers away from LI. I simply include offensive representation as to me reconciles with skill.

I have seen Philly evolve from stud defenseman and goalies to now include consistent elite offensive talent. Certainly not taking away from LI success, beyond reproach. However as per the "Outliers" it takes only three requirements. Starting at the age of 5, optimized repetitions, and I would throw in top notch coaching.

I would agree with the above poster that coming from LI or MD is no longer a prerequisite to elite skill. Look at 4 Philly kids that are lighting it up in the D1 ranks. Michael Sowers, Grant Ament, Gavin McBride and Matt Rambo.

Historically speaking, Philly wouldn't have that many kids in the top echelon of offensive talent. Furthermore, only McBride is from the Maine Line Area which historically churned out the top talent. Rambo, Ament and Sowers are all from less traditional sources of Philly based suburbs, yet their success indisputable. Not sure they all started at 5; however, they all started early, received good coaching via Dukes, Haverford School and Mesa.

I do find it interesting how quickly Maryland is fading in the elite offensive ranks. Spencer is doing great but for being the #1 recruit in his class Stanwick is a nice playmaker but not even the best player on his own team.

I absolutely see your point, and agree with you on many fronts. Philly is growing and there are some really great things happening, there is no denying that. I just don't see the pool of talented players in Philly nearly as deep as the numbers that I see every day on LI. Like I said, a stud athlete anywhere in the world will be a stud lax player given the resources; however, I don't know how many Philly kids are actually picking up sticks at 5. I know on LI, the answer is most. That doesn't mean that they will all be great lax players, but it does mean that they will have more opportunities to grow because it is literally everywhere. As far as coaching goes, many of the guys I know played in HS and college. They know the game upside and down and we still play in over 40 leagues. We can teach our kids in our backyards as well as anyone. I feel that the talent pool is much larger and I think it will be for awhile. One poster mentioned guys like Rambo, McBride, Sowers and Ament (all studs, by the way), but only McBride is in the top 10 in scoring while O'Keefe, Bruckner, Molloy, Moore and Guterding are and they are LI guys. Yes, Canada and NJ and Mass, and Upstate NY are represented, but not en masse.

It's not a slight on Philly. I love the city! I love Montgomery and Bucks Counties... they're beautiful! I just think that the region has a ways to go before comparing it to traditional areas.

Agreed, the talent pool is much larger. There are a ton of kids starting at the age of 5 in this area and I do think the parity of the PUBLIC Schools supports that trend. We play in the CCLA (Chester County) league and the U7 teams are packed with kids starting at 4.5.6. My boys started since they could walk and our whole neighborhood is stacked with elite talent.

LI will no be passed by Philly anytime soon but on the boys side Maryland will be passed. I know this will ignite fires but I believe there will be both superior talent and depth coming out of Philly than MD 10 years from now.

It is all good.

By the way Michael Sowers is #4 in Points/Game as a Freshman.

out of 13 attack/midfielders on the most recent Team USA, 6 were from MD. Just saying

Tied for 18th
http://www.ncaa.com/stats/lacrosse-men/d1/current/individual/222

Might be saying.... but to me that illustrates how rapid the decline from elite status is occurring. Of the top 20 point producers in Division 1 Lacrosse today only ONE player is from MD. That is stunning for an area that considers itself comparable to NY....and honestly second to none in arrogance as to where Baltimore should be in the echelon of lacrosse. Doesn't bode well for the future.

Lowly non-hotbed Philly Area has 4 in the top 20.

Those 20 year old MD seniors don't pan out so well at the next level

There are some 19 year seniors in MD prep schools - same as Philly and other areas. Against the rules to be 20

Bottom line is lax is exploding around the country, the northeast has always been the leader in producing elite players and will continue to do so but as the game grows the dominance of the northeast will decline, it won't happen overnight but eventually the playing field will level off..

100% agree and that is a great thing. I was in Tennessee on a business trip and my client was marveling at how ridiculously popular lacrosse has become. Said it was "exploding"....who would of thought....Tennessee.

Just curious how does dukes nationals stack up against local competition?

I would say they are Top 3.

BL and then Dukes Natl/Mesa but I also don't think it's apples to apples.

What's the connection between Duke and Mesa?

None, I just don't know which is better. BL is clearly better than both.

With the new recruiting rules I wonder if it will have a huge impact on Dukes. Why pay 2k for supplement lacrosse and a much longer season that now means nothing.

I don't think so parents that want to play more lacrosse will play to develop their kids skills I don't think they play dukes for recruiting benefit. At least from until high school. If anything I think t helps clubs as teams will stay together longer.