BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums NORTHEAST LACROSSE BOTC MAIN FORUM (LI, CT, WC) Conflicts! When HS Coaches Incorporate Summer Tournament Teams in Town

This is a problem at lots of schools not just Manhassett. Most of the problems are with YJ coaches because they have the most HS coaches. Elevate, Top Guns and Liberty (except for Manhassett) use mostly college kids to coach

-because clubs operate year round And give players many opportunities to develop. They’re good for the kids who have a passion for it or the parents who have no lives and make their kids do it. Your example of your job is sub-par, being that high school coaches get paid a max. Of $12,000 to coach high school-it’s not their full time job. Second it’s not “for cash,” being that coaches pay taxes on their club $$ just the same as their HS $. At the end of the day, the district picks who they think will best represent their school. Furthermore, it’s not a district issue. Let’s not forget, you chose to live in the district you’re in, #1, and if you’re there for lacrosse instead of school first, you’re a loser. On top of that, coaches should be able to coach wherever as whoever they please, as long as they are respectful, model citizens. They have to put up with little money, crazy parents, and kids who kind of want to be there......shut up.

You really don't think this is a conflict? If your kid didn't play for her HS coaches club yet some of the kids on her HS team did you don't think that's a problem? Don't you think the coach should be beyond reproach? Amazed you don't see any issue. No different than paying the math teacher for extra help all year. If my kid got a better grade after paying (whether earned or not) don't you think those who didn't pay would have questions?

This sort of situation is not just isolated to LI. If you look at the top high school teams down in the MD and DC area - all their coaches are affiliated with a club or run one. But, I have not seen any whining about it in the MD forum. How do they make it work down there or are people just more tolerant of it? Or is it because they really don't care much about the high school situations because they have been conditioned by their club affiliations.

If they were allowed to pay the math teacher they would.

There is a definite conflict of interest.

The parents who do not see it are the ones who have no problem paying and kissing [ChillLaxin]. The parents who come on here and tell you to suck it up and stop whining are the very same ones who are emailing, texting and making phone calls behind the scene to "advocate" for their kid. They are the very same parents who have been calling and emailing the teachers, principles, coaches and Athletic Directors on behalf of their kids for years. These parents do not expect their kid to be judged by the kids ability, they preemptively attempt to "develop a relationship" with all who might be able to help their kid. They know how to play the game and the coaches, teachers, AD's etc... eat it up.

It is a conflict.

you really sound foolish and uninformed. first, the conflict of interest is obvious - you pay the club coach and club coach puts you in the varsity team. easy for the school district to determine that - go look at the rosters. It has happened not just once but multiple times. its a business to her that funnels kids from her HS team and Manhasset community to her almost automatically. you can do the math - figure $1,500 per kid with 20 kids per team. plus the private lessons, which occur frequently. pretty good life. so the HS "job" isn't used for the salary. obvious conflict of interest.

Second, if you had any dealings with her, you would realize she is anything but respectful - i think most ppl have started to realize it and that is the reason she can no longer support 2 teams per grade.

if a school district has a policy where a teacher cannot tutor one of their students for cash then it should be applied to every teacher or coach. if you are unwilling to abide by those stipulations then leave. It works for the teachers but not the coaches. needs to change ASAP. new superintendent and the AD should address it - they did for the boys lacrosse program 2 years ago. now they should address the girls program.

There's a good reason why the state of Connecticut instituted a ban on HS coaches involvement with any for profit organization that has players form their district on the roster. It reeks of impropriety and is a form of coercion that victimizes children and their parents. Perceived or actual.

Many LI school districts have followed CT's lead and frankly the state of NY should do the same.

Kids are not pawns for coaches monetary gain and most AD's don't want to make trouble for their coaches.

Comparing the CT situation to LI is like apples and oranges when you consider the numbers involved - were NY to institute a similar ban, the shakeup to the entire lacrosse community would be monumental and throw it into chaos for at least a few years! The sheer number of school coaches that are involved with clubs, both due to the number of schools AND the number of clubs, has no comparison in CT. I suspect the few districts that have self-implemented such bans had no such conflicts with their existing players and coaches, and they did so to prevent any in the future. Good for them as it was not disruptive - but many other districts would find that they have countless 'conflicts' and it would force either 1. players to change clubs for no other reason, or 2. coaches to leave current clubs they are affiliated with for no other reason, or 3.
coaches leaving their school's program for no other reason. 2 and 3 is the referred to chaos, with 3 being unacceptable to many schools where they have good coaching in place.

Thankfully it has not had a negative impact on any of my children but the is no question that there is a conflict of interest.

Potential for conflict of interest - just because a coach may be involved with SAs both in the school and with a club does not mean it translates into an actual issue.

I disagree. One simple solution is that HS coaches involved with the numerous club teams cannot coach HS age club players. There are many clubs with teams with player grades from 3rd grade to 7th grade that the HS coaches can coach. There is no doubt that the potential for conflict is there for HS aged players and enough examples/problems that the CT rule is one that NYS should look at.

You're missing the point - if any coach is already in place in both a HS school and a club, and you implement the rule, only two variables exist to change: the coach or the players. From the school's perspective, the players aren't/can't change schools, the coach can stop coaching the club that their HS players are part of and they continue to coach at the HS, or the coach can leave their HS coaching position and continue to coach in travel. I am not sure what clubs you are familiar with, but most clubs already have coaches that are already coaching certain age groups, either consistently or moving along with certain ages/grades (these are usually fathers/mothers, but not always). A coach cannot simply decide to no longer coach one age (HS) and move to another within that org - it may or may not work within that club. For that matter, there are coaches that prefer or may only be suited to coach HS-aged SAs. As a result, implementation will be volatile to the coaching ranks - it's not a question.

How do you prove there is no conflict? If a conflict is perceived than a conflict exists.

I don't think you understand the Western CT club environment. Darien, Wilton, et al Big districts that had large club teams owned and or coached by the Varsity coach. If you don't play for the club team, good luck playing on Varsity. Can you prove this? Probably not, but the perception was pervasive so it impacted the decision making of parents. This is the perceived conflict and it needed to be stopped. Kudos to CT and the districts that have enforced it. Side note, I am 100% certain players were black balled but can't prove a thing except trust my eyes. I played upper level D1 lacrosse and have been coaching for almost 15 years. You know when you see it and its a darn shame. Altering a kids life for money.

I'm sure that when you add up all the various sports that CT has a significant amount of pay to play clubs. Curious as to what LI schools have banned this practice, I haven't heard of any

I don't think anyone can actually defend this practice, it's obscene at many levels. The truth of the matter is other than SA and a handful of schools most HS AD's could don't care about anything, especially winning, as long as it doesn't negatively impact them directly

Involvement with a club is a potential for conflict, agreed.Some HS coaches have a piece of the club. Most are employees. The bigger deal I think is the High school programs. Pay $800 for four tournaments and summer practices. Be a part of Varsity. Come to this special off season shooting clinic Only $30 a head. Hey freshmen want to have me see you and be considered to play varsity? Play with your HS team and pay Me. Or pay the booster club and they will pay me. If you want a serious HS team Pay Me

Our HS coach coaches some of our players over the summer at her club. How can it be anything but a conflict of interest? Some have paid tens of thousands of dollars to the coaches club and indirectly the coach and now people don't think it will affect HS playing time?

I think you're painting an ugly picture and making it as though every coach that works for a club team has the wrong Intentions, which is simply not true. You may of had a bad personal experience but don't make it as your experience is everyone's experience, and quite frankly I'd rather have my children play in summer for a coach who coaches high school lacrosse as opposed to young college players who aren't as experienced, or a father whose kid in on the team.

Your assuming the club teams are well coached. Coercion is real and some HS coaches profit handsomely just by the implied threat. They don't need to say a word. When parents make decisions out of fear for repercussions, the practice needs to be restricted.

Your not serious.....there is absolutely a potential conflict. I agree that most coaches do not have wrong/bad intentions. But there is no need for these conflicts to exist....and when it comes to money, playing time, playing position, A vs B team your head is buried in the sand if you don't think those potential conflicts become real ongoing conflicts.

The involvement between HS coaches and clubs is so pervasive, you cannot expect to just declare it "done" - it will take a monumental effort to enact such a change and a lot of pain in the period thereafter. You are asking to basically totally turn the lax world lacrosse cart over on its side! I am not saying that it shouldn't be done - but don't be naive about what it will take to do it and the mess that will be left in its immediate wake! And don't be surprised when there are schools and or parents/players left hanging in the wind and very unhappy that their HS or club coach is no longer "their" coach anymore - this would force coaches to move in one way or the other. Once it all settles out, it will be the new norm, but there will be a shitstorm in the middle!

Most school districts forbid teachers from tutoring in their own districts and tutoring their own students is absolutely forbidden. Similar scenario isn't it?

Except that you don't have an existing situation where district teachers are already tutoring a fair number of district students, that you are now proposing to end. There are a lot of personal and monetary investments that are in place with lax.

The HS coaches combining with clubs is mostly a new thing. The bigger clubs have been soliciting HS coaches as "board members", "advisors", "trainers", "club owners" in order to have those HS players sign up with that club. Its about MONEY. I do agree that the genie is out of the bottle and trying to turn this ship around may be monumental. But the bottom line is that there are kids/players/families being adversely affected.

When you say "combining with clubs" what do you mean? I am thinking more of a situation I have with my one son where a HS coach is also the coach for a travel team that has 7 - 8 of that school's players on it. That said, the coach the coach of the players on the club team prior to being their school coach.

See CT's eligibility rules: https://www.casciac.org/pdfs/eligibility_brochure.pdf essentially, you cannot participate with an outside club team AT ALL in season! I don't know about you, but travel club practice definitely starts before the school season ends, and even some tourneys may be scheduled before then! I realize this on the SA side, but CT appears to have worked both sides of this equation to kill club as best they can.

CT has restricted the number of players that a HS coach can have on his team and in his program from his HS. Why shouldn't NY do the same thing? I couldn't care less about the disruption this would cause, you have to protect the integrity of HS sports at all costs. I really can't believe school districts allow this conflict, I view it as coercion and extortion, to exist.

My son is in the 5th grade, we are in a northern Westchester "hot bed" for lacrosse. I've been told by 3 or 4 different parents that my son "has to play for XYZ summer club or he'll never play in HS because the Varsity coach runs the club". I have refused to be pressured into registering him for the team in spite of being invited by the program director. He plays for a summer program that has no connection to our HS program and everyone knows this HS associated club is far inferior to the one he plays on now.

What is a parent to do? My son loves playing for this other club, has many friends on the team and is being coached by a few highly qualified coaches.

If your good you play.....period.

Stop.

I have posted thi sbefore, but if you think there are no politics involved in youth sports, you are naive. There are politics involved in mulit-million dollar pro sports, so it easily happens at every level below it.

100% incorrect

We were in a similar position also in northern Westchester, my son is in middle school and played for the town summer team last year, coached by several of the HS coaches. I have to say he had the best coaching he's ever had and he loved it ! However this year he decided to try out for one of the club teams and made it. It was a tough decision but he decided to give the club a try this summer mostly due to the fact that although the town /HS coaches are phenomenal the level of a lot of the kids he'd be playing with is sub par because anyone can play, there's no tryout. Most of the kids who are better players play for club teams. He's the kind of kid who is a great town player but just a decent club player and he needs to be challenged by playing with better kids. So my point is that the town summer programs have their pros and cons and you need to decide whats best for your son. Don't listen to other parents you never know their intentions. I know for a fact that many of the starting players in our high school played for club teams in the summer, so I agree with if you're good you'll play. Good for you not being pressured! All the politics are in the town youth programs where the daddies are still coaching!

Just because it wasn’t your experience doesn’t mean it’s everyone else’s. So I agree with original and say 100% CORRECT

Politics are everywhere including employment, promotions, sports etc. Players of equal talent you can make the case that favorites play a part. But....on a whole in sports the best players play. No coach is going to sit his/her best players.

Yes, some coaches absolutely do not always play their best players. Good coaches are few and far between at the HS level.

Remember this the next time you see the pro player making millions of dollars a year who is basically stinking it up for half a season but is still starting, while a player at a level below him could do better. I get it - that player has the skills and potential to be the better player, but sometimes they just aren't at that time. And that player has been invested in by the team - they have to justify that investment in playing time. In the pros, it's money invested; in college it's time and effort to recruit. Both will ride poorly performing players long after they should have let another player play.

Ok. Last comment.......are you really equating/comparing pro sports players making millions of dollars to college/HS/youth sports. Cmon man....read the thread.....question was about 5th grade lax. Also note the comment...."on a whole". Stop with all the excuses why average players are picked over other average players ie recruiting, politics, team mom, daddy coach, too small, not athletic blah, blah. Sorry.....the best players play.

You missed the point - politics come into play at ALL levels of sports. On the whole, yes the best players will play - but if you're the parent of the one kid who is affected by the politics, you really couldn't care less about the "whole". Considering I've seen it both from player and coach's perspective, that is my take. I witnessed it firsthand as a SA in college for the reasons mentioned - it didn't affect me personally, but everyone on the team knew about it, talked about it. Highly recruited freshman literally stunk up the place for better than a half a season before they finally gave up on him and gave the job that any one of half dozen guys could have done better, to another player. Comparably guys who hadn't been as highly recruited were quickly replaced when they didn't play up to par, even though they were still playing at a level higher than the touted recruit. Similar stories from SA friends playing at other colleges. If you don't think daddy ball or affiliation with a club coach or whatever don't come into play at youth, you're crazy and/or naive. maybe it's only one player, but it happens. heck, I've been a youth coach in different sports for years, and I occasionally catch myself almost making player decisions based upon kids (or even parents!) that are personally annoying, or, vice versa, kids (and parents!) that are likable. That term "coachable" can be applied very widely to just about any character trait that you want to, good or bad, and it happens. Note that i am not saying there should be anything done about it, but to pretend it doesn't exists is ignorance.