BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums NORTHEAST LACROSSE BOTC MAIN FORUM (LI, CT, WC) Conflicts! When HS Coaches Incorporate Summer Tournament Teams in Town

With all the high school coaches being made directors at Outlaws there is definitely a conflict of interest. As a parents of kids attending those paticular schools that want their kids to be in good favor with their high school coach: they will be paying $2400 fees, $300 for indoor and extra fees for the inside lacrosse tournament if you play for Outlaws. You will also be paying for whatever your school team will be doing. Example Smithtown East and West doing 2 possibly 3 tournaments. So whatever that costs add that onto whatever your paying for Outlaws. That's a lot of money for summer lacrosse. Doesn't include hotels, food, and travel expenses. Good luck if you don't follow your high school coach to their travel program.

i am sure that tryout , membership fee, and cost per tournament (yes they pay per tournament on at least 2 or 3 teams) add up to quiet a number. that's not including hotels or those incidentals.

All the town summer travel teams are folding one after the other. Doesn't work. You can't put the "town" summer travels against a true summer travel team. The talent pool in anyone town just isn't deep enough to match up against a travel team pulling the best from multiple towns. Nice idea but once the town boys start getting smoked it all falls apart. No matter how much less expensive the program is.

Agreed. They should just have a Town league during the weekdays in the summer and leave the summer tournaments to the Travel teams.

As you can see all of these Town programs are folding one by one.

there is definitely the slant you speak about; but there is also the side where the better players can play on a higher level (Select) with other players who can enhance their game. In many instances this is what the better players wanted, playing travel with the blessing of the HS coaches. Now they can do both all while still under the umbrella of the HS coaches while still being able to hear different voices and styles.

More importantly, having the coaches in your organizations eliminate any town/travel conflicts that arise.

Now if you don't make the top select team at least you still have a competitive outlet to play. know your level and work hard to make it to the next. Lets not lose site that this outlet can also give those players (not select - AA) the opportunity to shine and be the players a team needs to rely on. best of both worlds .

now for those complaining about the $$ I don't believe the price changed because of the HS coaches coming on. I believe the price was the price before the announcement and is in the range of other travel programs.

I also believe many players would have payed a little $$ to play for their HS and while paying more $$$ for travel.

I say good job trying to make it work.

Agreed. Except the problem is the coaches are starting the town travel much earlier than High School. They are starting it up at grade school and middle school level. They are pushing players to drop their summer travel teams and only do town Summer travel. All fine and good. Except when these kids leave their travel team, jump on board and the town teams fold right as they hit high school and recruiting years. Then becomes the scramble to get on a Travel Club team ( along with everyone else on their team) and fight for a place on a team that's been together a few years. Very limited amount of spots at that point.

Why do coaches or as a matter of fact why does anyone get added to a board? They get added because they bring something to the table. In the case of adding these head coaches it's because they will bring players to whatever club they are affiliated with. It's a little trickier at the older ages because many players have been playing with the historically stronger programs like Express, 91,Turtles etc. It's a conflict when players feel obligations to play for certain teams out of fear they may be black balled at the High School level. If you think this doesn't happen your head is buried in the sand. It's been happening for years at the private schools.
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This just shows how misinformed you are. The Sachem rising is run by parents who want a more affordable option for their kids. So please stop your embarrassing yourself. PAL is spring only it ends at memorial day, for the kids who want to play past that they need to go pay 2K? NO THANKS! If you live there and don't like it just don't play, I have a 5th grader and we had a great time with north last year and excited east is now offering the same. We have friends who play for clubs, some are on their 2nd and 3rd one for various reasons and some are now done with it and only doing this.

Do the math if they charge $500 per kid where is the money being made? looks to me like you have an ax to grind here with someone. Why don't you just take it up with them? We pay $875 in Smithtown and we get winter, spring, and summer, I think its a great deal and look at our HS schools I think that speaks for itself but I'm a bit impartial.

I am glad you feel you are getting a good deal at $875.00 in Smithtown. I have no ax to grind with anyone but am bringing something to light for everyone to see.

You think that is a great deal in relation to what? Doesn't that seem high to play?

Does your program explain the costs? Maybe you should ask. You might be shocked by what you find if they would give it to you.

I think you mean biased.

With town travel teams...are there tryouts at all levels, Youth through Varsity? Or are teams a mix of all talent?

Mr. Smithtown. Here is question for you? I heard through the grapevine that the Board of Education at Smithtown shut down the high school summer program for lacrosse because of the conflict and that why both coaches signed with the Outlaws?

I think its more like the Smithtown coaches saw a greater opportunity to make money with Outlaws and cut the summer tournaments down for the Town program to 2 or 3. This way they can make some money from the town team and the club team. Any club would offer these guys money to be on their board. Think about it it's a direct feed into some great programs. The thing is if a player doesn't play on the travel team they coach is he going to be treated fairly on the high school team. Parents speak up. Make the board and AD aware of this.

A lot of people on here are very concerned about how others spend their money. If you do not want to pay to play on a high priced club that fine, you don't have to.

My issue is with people coercing others to play for a certain team. There is also the problem of misleading the community.

Yesterday I saw a list of "The Top Sophomores" in the country. It was a list of 100 players. It looked like every player on the list played for a club team. Just about all of the players were committed to D1 programs. Almost all of the top kids on the list were committed to great academic schools with excellent lacrosse programs.

Why would anyone try and convince a top player not to play for a top club team??????

If your kid is a strong player you should give serious thought to the motives of anyone who is trying to hold him back. Their motives are selfish and not in the best interest of your child.

You hit it right on the head. These town teams will say its for the good of the team. My opinion you should all you can for your town during the season. After the season ends, do what is in the best interest of your child.

You make valid points about people spending other peoples money. The choice is that of the consumer.

The list you refer to is put together by a person who sees kids play for their travel team. I can assure you that none of these kids is home schooled and they all attend a high school. I think its an injustice not to also list the hometown and high school these kids attend. So lets not overlook the high school teams completely.

Another point is the issue with coercing players to play for certain clubs. I don't think its an all out strong arm move but I do see how a player and their family may feel its obligatory they play for whatever team their high school coach is affiliated with. This can be deemed a bit awkward if you don't play for them. This has been a common practice for years in the privates and now seems to be occurring in the publics.

Good point Do what's best for your child, top talent should play with / against top talent. But lets face it for every 100 TOP players there are 5000 average players and they are the bulk of these conversations. This thread is 3 years old but has been kept alive by people who obviously don't like their high school coach. I am also a firm believer if you are one of the best "they" meaning the recruiters will find you whether you are with a club or your local high school team, that's their job. There were no private clubs 25 years ago and LI still produced the top talent. With the expansion and growth of the game lacrosse has become a lot like soccer and the local high school program is going to be for the average player where the elite kids will only be playing for clubs and academies.

The list did list the high schools. However the recruiting is done through the clubs. It is very rare to see a college coach at a high school game. The college coaches are all over the tournaments that the top club teams go to. Unfortunately, High School Lacrosse is no longer the most competitive lacrosse environment. Even on Long Island only the top few teams in each division are competitive. Many of the boys on the list were recruit before they ever played a varsity game.

True, there are some boys on that list that rarely step on the Varsity field because of the depth, yet they are considered top prospects in there grad class due to their club.

Don't you find it rediculous that these kids haven't even played a Varsity game and they are being ranked. Everything is just getting rushed. Let them play and mature. A lot changes between 9th and 12th grade. Don't let your kid get discouraged because they aren't on some list.

I think they are considered top prospects due to their abilities. College coaches don't recruit kids based on the club they play for, they recruit based on the player.

My kid is not on the list but if Harvard, Princeton, Penn, Duke, Notre Dame or Virginia came calling I would not tell them "no thanks I am going to wait a couple of years".

The college coaches are driving this bus. It's not the evil club coaches or the parents, It is the coaches. They can stop the early recruiting any time they want.

It's very true about the college coaches. Sat down on a Sunday with a coach who said he wasn't a fan of early recruiting and then the next week he's signing two 9th graders.

Can someone with knowledge please give insight into the situation at Smithtown East.

Please let me know if the following is even close to being accurate.

-- A number of parents went to the district administration and expressed concern regarding HS coaches and the conflict of interest with their involvement in town only for profit summer lacrosse program. Either the administration told the coaches to stop or the coaches took it upon themselves to back off. The coaches then became Board members for The Outlaws.

Do the parents have the same concerns regarding the coaches involvement with The Outlaws? --

-- I am not from Smithtown but many parents in my district have concerns regarding the conflict of interest with the HS coaches for profit summer program.

Most of the parents are afraid to speak up because they believe doing so will have a negative impact on their children. Some parents don't care what the coaches think and they have their kids play Club Lacrosse . Whether they play for the town only or they play club only or they try and do both everybody agrees it is a bad situation. Just about everyone feels the pressure and very few if any are happy with the current situation.

I have not made any waves but I do believe there is a conflict of interest and that is should not be permitted. I do believe that speaking up would cause negative consequences for my kids.

Just curious if anyone can shed some light on what actually took place. (something close to the truth)

Thanks

Read some of the other pages. You will see conflicts with WM, Sachem, etc.

Its all over the place and all of these other programs should follow Smithtown East and not allow the coaches to make money off the kids in the community. As a Municipal employees coaches shouldn't be making money above what our tax dollars pay them unless it is approved by the board of education of their school district. They are free to pursue gainful employment over the summer but it shouldn't be in the district where they are provided a GOOD living coaching and teaching.

I would rather they go outside to a club than have what is going on with clubs like WM, Sachem and others through the County where they have the "compete with us or else attitude".

They don't make money in the town program that is why they left... Bottom line! I have heard rumors they were offered 10K and the source is very credible. Think about it and I will only use outlaws as an example because that is where the Smithtown coaches went. If they are charging between $2100 and $2500 a kid and lets say they have 200 kids in the club that's a gross somewhere between $425,000 and $450,000 going into the club just on tuition fee's alone. Then add another $75.00 a kid to try out there's another 20K. Some people are making a nice living off of LI's youth lacrosse players!

That's peanuts compared to the girls - YJ has over 800 kids rostered at $1,600+ per player and a $50 tryout fee and voluntary clinincs and camps. Not to mention they run half the tournaments that they participate in! 2+ million a year flowing through the YJ machine. Now you know why the rumours of Spallina buying them in a multi million dollar deal never go away

Smithtown West was the problem!

WOW!!
But it's the town programs that are the problem?!? Laughable

Smithtown East was the problem

Exactly. People on here complaining about getting fleeced by varsity coaches charging $500-$1000 dollars for 5 summer tournaments but then they are willing to shell out $2500 to a club and don't see the hypocrisy.

Everyone knows the truth in Smithtown. West program has been corupt for years and got called out for it.

I don't think the parents of these players are stupid. If they could just play for their town team for only $500-1000 they would. Now they have to pay the $2500 to a club because their high school coaches are now directors. You don't follow me and pay for my salary at this club let's see how much playing time you get on the high school team. Now that's called collusion.

I agree. If the high school coaches do blackball kids for not playing for them in the summer that is an issue and they should be fired. Fired not only from the coaching position but also from teaching if they use their position of authority against the students. Doesn't matter if they are running their own summer program or coaching for an outside club using your position of authority against a student for any reason is unethical and should result in losing your job.

On the other hand as long as they do not punish kids on their spring teams for not playing with them in the summer I think the town team model is a better option personally for the majority of players.

The clubs should go back to being what they were 10-15 years ago, true elite teams for the upper tier of players.
Most players are average athletes and lacrosse players. Too many parents disillusion themselves into thinking their kid is the next Miles Jones and spend thousands of dollars chasing that "lacrosse free ride scholarship" that doesn't exist.

Spend that money on a tutor and it will have a much greater return on investment than the Lacrosse Club will.

All those people that were complaining about paying too much for their town summer program before now can pay double or triple and make the club owners wealthy. If you think the town teams were a rip off to line the pockets of the varsity coach you now can enjoy the results of your complaints.

Forget the money for a second, this chain is about conflict of interest-perceived or real. If parents or players feel pressure to play for any club or town-because the varsity coach is running that club or town team, there is a perceived conflict.

If that coach is vocal about his desire for kids to play on his team (again-doesn't matter if it is a club team or a town team), then there is a real conflict.

The threat of being blackballed or just not getting a fair shake at the varsity level is what this chain is about. How much money any family decides to pay is not relevant to the issue.

There is a conflict here plain and simple....

Most of these boys will never play lax at college level so the varsity game is what they are most worried about.

For the kids committed in 9 and 10 grade, the varsity coaches will play them, they are the studs. This issue is about two kids equal in terms of ability and athleticism. The kid that plays for the coach in the summer will get the nod over the kid that doesn't.

In more extreme cases-a kid that is in fact better and faster but does not play summer for the coach, get's shafted.

At the end of the day, because who the coaches pick to play on varsity games is completely subjective, there will never be any proof.

The parents that pay the summer tuition convince themselves that their kid is better and deserves the spot. They consider anyone complaining as a cry baby and say things like if you spent more time with little johny on wall ball...

The parents that don't pay summer tuition, scream that the AD should do something about this horrible coach...

Coaches themselves are in a no win situation but have the ability to make this entire situation go away. Just don't coach summer ball. Guess what happens then, people come on here and say our school coach sucks because he is not spending enough time with our boys...

No win situation. How you feel about it is determined purely on whether your kid is playing or not.

The above is why you have parents kissing coach a$$ all spring and summer.

Only 13-15 boys actually play on varsity even if another 30 make the team. Of those 13-15, only a small handful will play in college. Hard cold truth is that parents should just step back and realize that whether your kid play and starts on varsity is out of your control and doesn't make your kid any less worthy. Whether he/she starts on varsity also doesn't increase your self worth. it is a game and there are very limited scholarship $ and no income potential after college.

Tell your kids to play the game and have fun, this is all about having fun and building young men.

Very well said and this should be the last post in the thread and the thread locked. I could not agree more.

I agree with all except many town programs try to make it play for us or else. Just don't think someone inside the district should be doing that to the people of the community. Having the district regulate costs and salaries and think that would make it more appropriate.

That's a different issue from how much the town programs charge.
I agree, if it is even implied from the town coach that a player should play for him, "or else", whether that be for the town program or a club program that the coach is working for, that is a huge ethical problem. If that is happening in your town I would get together with some other parents that have been told the same thing and go to the A.D. or the B.O.E. and file a complaint against the coach.

But make sure that others feel the same way and it is not just something you perceive because of some pre-existing feelings about the coach. If you are going to make accusations against anyone make sure you have the facts and proof to back up your accusations before you slander someone's reputation.

Its interesting when town/high school coaches want the players to play for the towns summer team. For years it was all about the success of the high school program and having the kids play together all year this usually translated into a very strong high school program. That even helps when there is not much talent. People please understand that there are up years and down years for talent. Every town doesn't have 5 to 10 D1 players. So by keeping the players together year round it creates a strong team concept where players gel together and do better. Historically the towns that had strong town teams had strong high school teams. In this day and age it gets twisted and spun when a coach asks players to play for the town team only. Its his job to put the best product on the field and if he doesn't that group of parents gets together and has him forced out. Every town has that group. Now here is the double edge sword where club teams come into play. In recent years we have seen a change in the formula where club teams are the main concentration and I feel this is due the fact that a college coach can now go to a few tournaments and see a lot of talent in one weekend rather than traveling the nation to see a few good players on any particular high school this excludes the Chaminades and Boys Latin type schools. This is a direct reflection of the me first mentality and the loss of the sense of community in the North East. Add the fact that most high school coaches have no ties to their town and are hired guns. They only want to pad their pocket and as a result they join forces with the travel teams and in turn work for and with the Club Teams.

What's better having a high school coach that is committed to putting the best team on the field and keeping the kids together and insists you play with your high school teammates year round for the betterment of the high school program or is it the pay for play travel teams that many are forced to play for and pay through the roof because your high school coach is now a director. For the purists the latter of the two programs works for the new bloods its all about the clubs.

These are just my opinions. I will give you some teams that historically have had strong high school programs and also strong town teams Ward Melville, Garden City, Smithtown East and West, Manhasset, Yorktown, and more in no particular order.