BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums NORTHEAST LACROSSE BOTC MAIN FORUM (LI, CT, WC) What's Your View? Player Passes

While US Lacrosse oversees the registration of players, the result is still a relatively weak system where birthdates, team rosters, and tournament players are regularly questioned both at the field and here on BOTC.

BOTC would very much like to open a dialog with US Lacrosse (perhaps via the LIMLF or directly) to discuss strengthening the player pass system.

What is your view? Is this a problem that requires a solution in order to improve the youth game in the region? Alternatively, is the player flexibility under the current system actually an advantage for player development?

BOTC is extremely interested in your thoughts on this topic.

As a coach, I don't see the disadvantage of having a player pass system. Some coaches and organizations play by the rules regarding age/roster requirements and won't see any impact against them. However, the growing trend is to bring in ringers (same age or older) and fill roster spots for tournaments. Hopefully, a pass system will help prevent coaches from directly contacting (poaching/recruiting) players who are committed to another team and handing them a jersey for a particular tournament and acting like "this kid is on my team". It undermines the whole team concept. If you are short players, then play with what you have - your roster is your roster, period. I know quality players who are farmed out on weekends to various teams to help them win. What message does this send to the kid who works his but off in practice? It tells him you're not good enough. When a team is legitimately short for a tournament, the team should be list as "CLUB Name Free Agent Team". This way, everyone knows that the team you are playing is not the usual club team for that age group, but instead is comprised of added players. Personally, I would rather lose a game with the players who committed to me, than win with a ringer. You can offer me the top player in my age group, if he is not on my roster, I will not take him. Commitment is a two way street - player to player and coach to players. Remember - coaching is teaching - values, ethics, integrity. We need a pass or credentialing system badly.

great post. as a parent of a young lacrosse player you give hope to us that it is not allways about the win and the money

Also as a parent of a young lacrosse player (10 year old), I explain to him as if he is a little man what has been and continues to go on. I teach him that life isn't fair and people will constantly try and break/bend the rules. That being said, he should work hard to overcome those obstacles. Although the wins may not pile up he will feel good about playing fair and being honest. Nothing will be given to him for free, nor should he expect it! Other towns have better programs, accept it, work hard and move on. Other teams have better coaches, make the best of what you have, move on. Other kids have more privileges, elite camps and private lessons, move on. Have fun, play the game and build friendships. All life lessons, and that is what I feel is my job as a father, to prepare him for lifes obstacles. There will always be someone in his life who he will compete against that has an advantage, work hard and do the best you can do. Take that advice and you will succeed I tell him! Study hard, keep fishing and hunting and camping with me and play sports. Be well rounded, I feel that will serve him better in life.

Needs to be done! Way overdue. My son is on the bigger side for his age and plays HIS age and has never been left back. But we do teach him to play hard against whom ever is on the field in a different color pinnie, no matter the age & size of the other team. Player Passes are the way to go!

Well said my friend

I would love to see them implement this process. There is no integrity in travel lacrosse with the current roster process. With the all the new travel teams out there, every club looks to win every tournament so the can post a picture on their website. Problem is many clubs bring in outside players on an idle weekend, older players from within their club, etc, to get the win....Other sports have the player pass/team roster process implemented and it works fine.

Long over due, especially at the younger ages, every local tournament that we play in has at least one time which has anywhere from 2-5 kids that are a year or two older and there's nothing you can do about it. A bunch of parents (most of who have kids who play or played soccer)were just having this conversation recently when we fell short in a tournament to a team which we later found out had 4-5 kids that were two years older than our players. The LI Lax community knows the coaches and players in various towns pretty well and can usually see when a team is loaded for a tournament. When caught the response is always the same - "we were short players so my older child and a few friends came down to play". Guess what happens? We lose by a couple of goals and most, if not all the scoring is done by the older players. Soccer has had very strict rules with ID cards for a long time, it's time that Lax catches up!

in theory the card system is good, the implementation will be impossible because there is no league or governing body like football or soccer that has leagues and penalization ramification caught, on the older teams, 9th, 10th and 11th grade you have an additional problem of kids playing on travel kids also playing on their HS summer team and the conflicts,when a travel team is short because 5 or 6 kids have to play for the town team that weekend, some teams take non roster players just to have enough kids not for ringers, Outlaws 2015 went through this last year at UMass. lacrosse is expensive enough, this will ad another expense to create and administer and we don't need it.

Count me as in favor of player passes.

You make a excellent point in regards to "no govering body", very true and it SUCKS that there isnt!!! But as far as you saying it would be an added expense to an already expensive sport I cannot understand that because this is a saftey issue for young (kids) athletes.

Why not have US Lacrosse to set up a new system. They can raise the membership fee to offset cost. Parents are paying big monies to be on a travel team. What's another $25.00......

I agree with all the posts so far, official passes are LONG overdue in lacrosse. Having two boys who play I have seen many teams come to tournaments LOADED with kids who are older, especially in the younger age groups say U13 and younger. You constantly see players play for multipule teams during tourneys. It shouldn't be hard to do. Almost all tournaments require a US Lacrosse #. What would be so Hard that when you apply for the card you have to submit a picture and the picture can only be updated once a year

What is the issue here. Players age or concern for stacking a team? in my view we need to focus on safety and getting kids playing age appropraite, which a pass system would work well. trying to govern who's on what team in youth sports is a tremendous undertaking, and unfortunately a waste of time as nothing could be created to be binding.

According to lacrosse magazine Long Island is the Lacrosse hotbed. Why not start here and let LI set the tone for everyone else. BOTC should get together with any/all LI tournaments and advertise that teams/players bring copies of birth certificates and enter dates of births on rosters for all teams. Let coaches handle the paperwork for their teams. Sure there are plenty of ways to get around that, but sometimes all it takes is a start to change the way things are done. Tournaments should advertise that they will check rosters/dates of birth if another coach questions a player from another team. The time to push the idea is now prior to the summer season!!

you would need the insurance companies to get involved. And since US Lacrosse is prodominately used, i would assume they need to begin to regulate the age issue. the tournament directors just want to collect money, they are al quick to combine brackets when they have low participation. liability and fear of litigation is the only way this gets going.

I am all for having player passes. Too many times I have been at tournaments and have seen obviously older kids playing down. It always drives me nuts that coaches and parents are willing to cheat like this. I would never allow my son to play down, and for a game, and we should communicate to our coaches that they have to be more vocal to tournament organizers when it is suspected, quiet angry acceptance is what allows this practice to continue. If coaches know for a fact that the opposing team is fielding older kids they should refuse to take the field and contact the tournament officials. It is us that allow this to contunue to be done, until a pass system is in effect we need to take a stand against it as best we can.

Well photos are a MUST. My son played travel baseball one season for a pretty unethical coach, we left when we found he had copies of other kids birth certificates that had previously been on the team, he kept them as his "proof" of age for the ringers he would poach. For all I know he may have made copies of my sons birth certificate to hold for future use.
Nassau suffolk football league holds a photo registration night before the season starts, any new kid must show up in person with birth certificate have photo taken. Laminated cards are issued, coach holds them, prior to every game they are inspected and matched to each boy there. With football size is a huge issue for liability when you can have a 80 pound 13 year old in the same league with a boy that weighs as much as 160 pounds.

Please do not assume that kids are older than they really are,my son now 14 just grew at a very young age by 11 he looked 13' I had a parent run after us after a game asking how old he was,this actually happened on 3 occasions, now he is average for his age,the issue being some boys have a huge growth spurt at 11 while others don't until they are 13,so please never assume a kid is older just by his looks,

If the all players had passes and it was mandated at tournaments, there would be not reason to assume that your son was older......All the more reason to implement player passes.

And as we approach Winter LEague season, we will show up and play a team that DRIVES one week and play a middle school team the next! Winter and Summer seasons are infamous for bending the eligibility rules, especially with GOALIES!!!

No brainer works with soccer

I think plsyer passes of some sort are way overdue. Although not a perfect system (what system is), it seems to work well with soccer. Not sure exactly how that would work with lacrosse being separated by grade instead of age. Would stop the blatant cheating done by some. Heard that a team played girls that were too old in the Shamrock Shootout and were caught. It's time to put an end to these types of coaches.

I'm personally not for player passes. On the girls side of things it seems so much easier because everything is grade based. It's much simpler.

If teams are actually caught "cheating" or putting teams in the wrong age bracket then places like BOTC are a perfect way to let the lacrosse community know.

are you dense? u-age or grade doesn't matter without a picture id (like soccer), girls teams are as guilty as boys when it come to older players playing down in tournaments, in fact i would say 50% of the tournaments my girls have played in have older kids playing down or unrostered kids in the field, get a clue!

wow that was nasty

I have a child that is a goalie. one year the goalie sustained an injury while playing in a tournament. As we all know goalies are hard to come by and many teams only cary one. The goalie was replaced by , at first ,a goalie from another team, at tournaments where the new goalies team wasn't attending. A few years later , the team 1 year younger, had a goalie sustain an injury within a few days of the start of tournament. My goalie was asked to replace this goalie, not at every game because the schedule conflicted. Now I think we can all agree that at this level of competition replacing a goalie has little effect against scorers, for stoping the rock is very difficult, and I know that some will see this as cheating, but I think this needs to be discussed. The goalies were not replaced to gain advantage, and this is not like inserting a single mid-fielder who's size and speed could radically change the outcome of a game. So for a position as anemic as goalie, where there are so few, and hardly enough to go around, and the position comes with a higher rate of injury, how do we address this situation.

I can understand the depth issue you're raising, however, that's what seperates the average teams and the above average teams in every sport at every level

The only people who would have an issue with player ID's are the ones who are all to flexible in bending or breaking the rules, there's no downside to the player cards

how does a general lack of players at a position, or an injury separate average teams from above average? I have seen every organization post the need for goalies.

that's why the yankee's are a perennial playoff team and the twins aren't - depth has been and always will be an issue in every sport and at every level, there's no getting around it

every team needs more of something, to carry only one goalie into tournament play is ridiculous

True, but it's also true that goalies are hard to come by. My kids have been on plenty of teams with only one goalie (not just lacrosse). You are so screwed if the goalie can't play for whatever reason.

yYou keep saying the same thing in different ways, I understand that you think a team should carry a second goalie, and if your team does your lucky, but you need to stay open minded and deal with the facts of the greater issue. You can't compare Baseball to Lacrosse, Baseball is played by millions of people. where as lacrosse is, as of now, still fairly small. So to say the Yankees have depth is irrelevant to this conversation. Yes every team should carry 2 goalies, I think we all agree on that, but when you get into the older age groups, especially into high school, the amount of available goalies severely decreases. At this point in time I defiantly believe there should be player cards because there are nefarious coaches out there that have no morals and a win at all expenses attitude. I also believe if there caught using "ringers" they should be banned from coaching, no second chance, no excuses. I also believe this situation needs to be addressed without the " well MY team doesn't have this problem, so yours shouldn't either" close minded attitude. I don't know who your child plays for but I have seen Express, Yellow Jackets, 91, fl$ post looking for goalies. This is not an isolated issue

If you get caught using an illegal player, then the coach should be suspended just like soccer. Its not complicated it just makes the registration process a little bit more time consuming but then everyone will know they are playing on equal footing against the same teams.

This has been talked about for years and its pretty obvious the lacrosse community likes the way it is with loose rosters and teams bending the rules.

every baseball team would like to have a lefthanded pitcher that can throww 98mph, how many do? goalie is a thankless position for the most part - when you make a save "that's what you're supposed to do" when you don't...

Does anyone know if the express/commack coach was suspended for using illegal players in the town tournament for Shamrock!! Our town team played by the rules and this man used an illegal player and proceeded to use that player in the braveheart to win the tournament!! really unfortunate

O.K......so whats your point. Cant you carry a conversation without using metaphors

in intermurals sports it's all about having equal teams, travel programs are about COMPETITION, if your missing a goalie or your best scorer should the game be postponed until you're at full strength? or should your brother fill in for the missing player? that's why there's anywhere from 20-28 kids on these summer tournament teams. you're right i can't understand your thought process of having an even playing field at all costs, ergo metaphors!3cn9t

Thank you for a full, well put together thought without the Yankee/baseball stuff. but the question remains. With the apparent lack of goalies, is it cheating to, in mid season, add a goalie of the same age to your roster, or are you so confident that it will never happen to your kid that your willing to say that no matter how hard a group of kids work, that the team as a whole should suffer for a situation that is basically beyond anyones control. I am sure every team would like to carry 28 kids and 2 or 3 goalies, but the truth is that kids want to play with there friends and if little johnny is playing for express that little jimmy wants to also. This isn't soccer or baseball where there are millions of kids to chose from, it's lacrosse, a very small community. We need to address this issue civilly. If you want to stay with the "I have mine" attitude, and not be fair to all the kids,not just yours, then maybe soccer or baseball is the game for you