BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums NORTHEAST LACROSSE BOTC MAIN FORUM (LI, CT, WC) Sage Advice : Crystal Ball and Year-Round Lacrosse

The recent discussion currently taking place on the Long Island Express and Team 91 threads reminds BOTC strongly of discussions that we saw on our soccer sister site, Back of the Net, about ten years back.

Lacrosse is moving to (or already has become) a year-round sport and the existance of Elite or Premier Clubs is fostering the business side of that equation. The market is already ripe with parents and players having a tremendous appetite for the increased competition and training on a year-round basis.

The town team concept will eventually be completely relegated to instructional or developmental efforts in the younger age groups if it has not been so already. Players will begin migrating to the Elite Club structures at younger ages (perhaps Grade 3 or Grade 4 at the latest) and town players will most likely only come back together during their High School Junior Varsity and Varsity seasons.

This is precisely what we saw in soccer from 1998-2002 as regional "Premier Leagues" were formed to service the very best teams and those teams remained together throughout the calendar year to compete and showcase at the highest levels. BOTC fully expects that some type of regional league structure will emerge sooner rather than later to bring down the overall cost to parents in chasing tournaments while building a more consistent, competitive structure for the longer term. BOTC expects that a top premier league covering Maryland/Virginia northward through New Jersey/New [lacrosse] will happen in the next two to three years with state based feeder leagues introduced thereafter to build a proper promotion and relegation system.

Right now on the Long Island girls side, you have already seen some market consolidation with very few "super clubs" emerging. Interestingly from soccer, you saw the girls Elite Club pecking order emerge before the boys.

During the next three years, you can expect to see some consolidation on the boys side as the truly top Elite Clubs begin to emerge. The lesson here is that those of you hoping to see the re-emergence of the town team structure are going to be sorely disappointed. The genie is already out of the bottle.

You sound like a really good guy to get advice from. I am looking into Lax clubs for the first time, my son is 13, has been playing since he was 6 for the town along with summer travel which usually is a disater. He is a good lax player, not elite, the competition at 91 for his age group was off the hook. In your humble opinion where should I go next. I am thinking Riptide, Jesters, Recon, Long Island Park.I just want him to play with kids his level and better, enjoyable, local and no real drama would be preferable. I just don't know which clubs are actually looking for better skilled players and which are looking to collect the 25, 40, or $50.00 Fee.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

To be fair, we are not going to be able to call out one program over another as these programs each offer their own unique features. What we can suggest is that you research each of the clubs you have mentioned here on BOTC's Tryout Forum and make a couple of phone calls asking each program director to describe how they handle their 13 year-old programs. Check their training and club philosophy against what your family has found useful and enjoyable at the town team level. In short, researching the "easy stuff" before you get to the tryout fields will both save you money and make your son's tryout align with your own expectations.

Hope someone can help us out. We are looking for a highschool level winter league for girls.The further east the better but will consider all options. Thanks

BOTC knows that Globall is putting together a Fall/Winter lacrosse league right now and BOTC will be carrying the details. You can call them directly by clicking on their sponsor's banner (top row, center square) - please ask for Meghan Frey when calling.

But there are a few hold outs. Three Village lacrosse has its head in the sand on this issue, and according to their board meeting from a few weeks ago, you will not be allowed to play "elite" teams and if you do, you will face being "shunned" in the community along with hopefully not playing on the HS team if their candidate for varsity coach gets the position. Politics

the only thing that can stop the trend is the varsity coaches and that is if they even want to. by trying to emulate WI or WM they can sell the kids on whats better for the High School team is better for everybody and also the cost savings - right now kids are predominately still being recruited through the HS coach although they are being seen with their summer teams, the HS coach still has huge input and there for leverage. this is the difference between Lax and basketball, hockey and soccer where the recruiting is all through the club or AAU teams. there are good arguments to both sides, playing on club teams gives you the opportunity to play with different coaches, different types of offenses and defenses and it is better to play with kids on the same playing level A/B or C. on the other hand staying with your high school team will make the team better and the program better and that in turn should help everybody. at the end of the day try to make the best decision for your own kid for what is best for them. personally I think play on your town team and get an SAT tutor with all the money you saved on not playing travel.

To prove just how wrong this observation is, let me ask you a couple of questions. First, do you think that collegiate lacrosse coaches are taking off from their daily Spring season training to go and see a Long Island High School Varsity game? Second, do you think that that unevenness of Long Island Varsity competition is the proving ground on which any coach would actually make a roster decision for their college team?BOTC certainly agrees that the academic profile of the player will be as or more important in the long run acceptance process at any university.

We disagree that the town team approach in order to bolster a High School program is the right approach. Fifteen years back, soccer was managed in that manner. With premier teams emerging, soccer migrated away from town team approaches to premier play. BOTC has observed that lacrosse is about ten years behind soccer in this youth sports evolution, but evolving it is and perhaps more rapidly than soccer with the rate of increase in private education tuition.

I think you missed his point entirely, unless I am reading this wrong he is saying that the HS coach is still the main conduit to the college coaches for recruiting but they are seeing the players in the Summer with their select team, you are both saying the same thing that college coaches do not scout HS regular season games, to the point of the HS program still being important there are plenty of scouts at Stony Brook and Hofstra for the county championships so if you get to the championship game because you played together all summer and fall to make your school team better you are now in the Long Island Championship game in front of 100 college coaches then not only have you helped yourself but you have also helped your teammates and friends, there is nothing the matter with having a primary goal to win help your school win a HS championship as opposed to your primary goal is to get into a college for lacrosse.

Often, how good a town team and school team are, seems to be a reflection of how many top level players they have on the team that were developed and fed through the travel or club teams. Each boys and girls have certain schools that are successful and independant examples of good training and development. I would be extremely upset if my son or daughter's town/school team tried to block them from playing travel/club ball. The truth is, I see the kids on the town/school team that stand out and it is because these kids are playing club, I see the kids on the field for town/school ball and there is a massive difference in athletic ability. It is very hard for a town/school team to put together an elite group of kids because they have boundries or limited number of kids to draw from. Meanwhile a club team can pick the top one or two (or none) from of each town team to put together a roster. Of course every town team would like to be west islip, but they are not and should welcome and encourage the travel atheletes and try to build on top of that. I bet you many of these programs would actually deteriorate by banning the travel programs. The kids would very rarely see the level of competition they see at the tournaments, it's kinda like home-schooling.

No, BOTC did not miss the point and it is why we disagree. In short, the High School coach is NOT the main conduit for college coach access for some simple reasons. Off-Island college coaches will not travel to Long Island for a High School Varsity match during their own regular Spring season - period. As for "scouts" at Hofstra and Stony Brook at the Long Island Championships, you get us the listing of those schools and we will publish it from the rafters here on BOTC. We will guarantee you that you could draw a 30 mile ring around either of those two colleges and the coaches will all reside within that ring. This is not a regional tournament and without that regional pull, you are not attracting "100 college coaches".

We agree that playing for your school has HUGE value for your High School profile beyond lacrosse and specifically shows engagement with your High School and School Spirit. However that is NOT the discussion at hand. We are discussing the role of the High School coach in lacrosse recruitment and BOTC takes the position that the recruitment is driven through the premier clubs.

BOTC completely agrees with this view.Again, we agree. This is where premier and elite lacrosse programs are pushing the sport at the youth level. As we have said, fifteen years back, soccer was similarly just seeing the dawn of real premier caliber, cross-state leagues. Lacrosse, due in part to the expense of constant summer tournaments and vague competition levels, will come to the conclusion within the next three to five years that an organized premier level of competition will be a better solution for the top clubs.Hence, the root of the "town" versus "elite" label.BOTC agrees that the elite clubs are training players at a higher level and on a more regular basis (year-round, hence the initial posting on this thread). Elite clubs operate year-round due to the financial aspect of running a business; the beneficiary is the High School Varsity and Junior Varsity programs that are inheriting these well-trained, top players. Town team players generally wind up with a background role. The Newsday coverage will focus on the powerhouse High Schools and you will find over time that more and more of those top teams will have the top players who are all part of elite programs. Again coming back to the original opinion piece in this thread, it explains why town teams will be relegated to developmental roles in the intramural years as the next five years unfold.

listen to the people that have been through the process and not to the youth lacrosse corporations that sponsor you and pay your bills, an example, this year is a kid who has never played for a corporate team and only his town team and has verbally committed to a top Ivy League School. based on his High School career and being seen at a lacrosse recruiting camp that he attended on a recommendation from his HIGH SCHOOL coach - you have started a very interesting thread but this is an exchange of ideas, don't take it so personally when people have different opinions, kids are still recruited through their HS coaches, this does not mean that college coaches are going to high school games it means that if they are interested they talk to the HS coaches to gauge interest, get unofficial transcripts and in some cases video, and just because you are sponsored by these youth lacrosse corporations does not mean the high school coach is no longer involved in the recruiting process. your attempt to minimize the HS coach is silly and make you look uninformed.

Every lacrosse player I know who has been recruited has been recruited through showcases with his or her club team. That is my experience.

In the example you cite, you state the coach referred his player to a recuitment camp. I don't consider that being very involved in the recruitment process. Then you state that the college coaches reach out to the HS coaches, which again, is not the HS coach actively working on recruitment for the students. Parents, IME, drive a lot of the recruiting process, FAR more than HS coaches.

My feeling is that unless your team goes to states there is going to be little attention paid to it by colleges, and even then it's going to be primarily local coaches.

But hey, I'm all ears. If a bunch of people chime in here with stories of HS coaches proactively working on getting their players recruited, I'm all ears. And ready to let my kid's coach know. Haha.

My son was recruited as he was seen at 2 different recruiting camps by the same college coach. These camps are by HS coach recommendation only. Not to say that it was tremendously "involved" but that's where it starts.

Just like the powerhouse HS teams get noticed so do the powerhouse Elite teams. Interesting to note that the powerhouse HS teams in Nassau have multiple players on multiple Elite teams. Seems to me these coaches will put personal agenda's aside to put the best team on the field. Shame on the town programs strong arming their players. There is also a substantial number of competent players on HS Teams that will never see a county championship. Go with what works for your child

Without question the most "involved" people are the parents and players themselves. In the end, there is always someone as good or better than your child. It comes down to grades and what you can afford. Lacrosse is an excellent opportunity to broaden your college selection. It also affords instant comradery for your child when they get there. Injuries end lacrosse careers, coaches switch programs, and schools change their athletic departments all the time. The best advice I was ever given was to be sure the player will be happy at the school even if they were NOT playing lacrosse.

If you can get an honest assessment of your child's ability, you will be better prepared to choose the right school. Education is still the primary purpose of going to college, right?

But then again there is at least one HS coach who is also an elite club director. There is yet another side business attached to this which brings in money for help with the recruiting process. The lines get a little blurry.

Ah, yes, very true. I forgot about her. And she waives her "recruiting fee" (or whatever it's called) for her school players. What a sport.

There are many High School Varsity coaches that overlap interests with their premier/elite lacrosse training organizations. There are many High School Varsity coaches that run for-profit summer camps for a week or two. Whether we are discussing the State Winning Coach from Farmingale, Bob Hartranft, or others from Long Island, the story is the same.

The discussion that was on the table was about recruitment. In these overlap cases, the question is whether the player is more likely seen at a High School or Showcase/Camp event. Clearly the evidence presented thus far indicates that Showcases and Camps dominate the recruitment venues.

No reason to criticize anyone being paid for a service if they are legitimately providing assistance . One of the coaches at our HS runs camps all summer long, on the Island and upstate, and VERY profitable it is. Not lacrosse but another sport, however, he NEVER goes to bat for any of the kids he wines and dines in HS promises them the moon and stars. He is too concerned with building his empire within school, to even think about what these kids are sacrificing. Meanwhile they are thinking (as are the parents) they might have a snowballs chance in h e l l of getting recruited with his help. Doesn't happen never has never will.
Showcases and tournaments on your own at club level is the how it happens.

As far as getting noticed, there is no contest. Showcases and camps are a must. I think a fair analogy would be like advertising your car for sale in the Pennysaver vs. a pop-up on the main page of Yahoo.

Still the most important thing is grades, grades, grades and the almighty SAT/ACT. A previous poster stated save the money from Travel Teams and put it into SAT Prep courses, if you are seriously thinking of playing collegiate lacrosse at any level other than Club, you need to do both.

I would not say the story is the same with all Coaches. Since you mentioned Mr. Hartranft lets discuss what he really does.
Not only being Farmingdale Lacrosse for over 40 years but I believe he does a clinic in the summer for Farmingdale Kids. I do not believe that he owns an elite travel program nor does he travel around town to town, state to state with his version of a lacrosse camp.... So if you are going to mention names and tell everyone who does what Maybe you should mention the Chaminade coach that owns the elite Travel club Be the Best. Like you said lots of coaches have there side business, there is nothing wrong with that, the story however is not all the same with all....You should get your facts straight before you mention names....Lacrosse is a small knit community, if your son or daughter has talent they will be found....Yes you need to put some work into it and yes the travel teams do help. However they are not the end all...I was told that if my son really wanted to go somewhere to start writing letters to coaches and sending video....Nothing wrong with being proactive and advertising yourself... Lets also face it most of the parents on this board are going to be very dissapointed when little Johnny or Tina doesn't get a full ride to Duke...Put in some footwork...Don't rely on anyone...Action gets results and remember there is Division 2 and 3 for a reason...I would like my son to play and be happy where ever he lands.....

I have known Bob since the 1970s at Farmingdale as a History teacher, long before he picked up a lacrosse stick. Truth be told, it was/is well known that Bob originally wanted to coach BASEBALL, not lacrosse.

Bob is part of the Farmingdale Lacrosse summer camp as a named coach for those sessions.

Fine, you've mentioned them. Feel better now?

BOTC has been defending the position, not aggressively stating that there needs to be a division between school and club. Perhaps you should read the original editorial in this thread to improve your understanding of the points being discussed?

Our facts are from the inside of the game. BOTC speaks with more clubs and schools than you will experience in your child's High School career. Exactly which "fact" have we gotten wrong? Truth is that we have been through the recruitment wars and BOTC is offering first hand information for our readers. Accept it, reject it, challenge it, use it. The choice is yours.

This is where you are missing it. Lacrosse is not a small knit community where everyone is looking out for everyone else. Youth Lacrosse is a business. Your ability to look out for your child during recruitment and all other phases of the game, in parallel with their academic progress, is the important message.

Agreed.

Take a look at the College Forum here on BOTC for advice on profile construction and proper letter construction to address college coaches.

Profile and Letter Construction Tips and Techniques

We advise everyone to read about the college scholarship numbers in parallel with all of the work being done to get ready for a collegiate sports opportunity.

NCAA Division I and Division II Scholarship Numbers

Well stated by 429lax. Thank you for the confirmation and contribution.

cage sage - you compliment those that agree with you and rip those with independent thoughts, you really are not monitoring a forum you are just a combative poster like the rest, just not anonymous, you should be writing a blog not posting on your own forum. Reading all this I realize that I am fortunate to be in a school district where the coach works tirelessly for his kids to get to the correct schools, and not the All-Aamericans but all the kids.

Rip those with alternative thoughts? No, we welcome those views. If we didn't value the diversity of opinion, we would have just deleted the post.

Offer detailed facts to back our views in contrasting thought? Absolutely. This position is certainly not combative.

This thread is clearly marked as an editorial column ("Sage Advice") which is one reason why we have been more active in the discussion than usual. Effectively, this thread is a "blog" (for want of a better term) within the message board itself.

Thank you for contributing your thoughts on the topic.

The views seem pretty balanced to me. This site is offering discussion on both sides of every issue including some pretty frank club discussions.

Cage sage must have struck a nerve with you. Take a step back, this is one of the few rational voices to be heard on this forum. Look and read around, Cage Sage is pretty much detatched and on the money in all responses.

or - he is a shill for the youth lacrosse corporations that sponsor this web site? by saying club "corporation" lacrosse is the best way to get recruited and denigrating the High School and town programs he and this site are promoting the business of his advertisers/sponsors

Denigrating HS and Town Teams???? This thread is about where you get more exposure for recruiting. Showcase tournaments are typically attended by Travel Teams and Camps are typically by HS coach invitation only. You need both. Go to any University or College athletic website and check out the lacrosse rosters and you'll see players from all over the USA plus Canada and other countries.

The HS team and coach will always be important because a HS degree is needed before you go to college. Recruiting exposure is way bigger than any one person so by all means get all the help you can from anyone you can, anywhere you can.

As for HS or Town Teams that shun players who go elsewhere, SHAME on them. How dare they deny these kids the freedom of choice.

Agreed and Amen! Shame to anyone who thinks a high school coach should have the ability to deny a player access to a school team, not on ability.... but on his/her whim. We all know that it is buyer beware on club teams. However in the never ending quest for "more" a parent/child shouldn't have to choose between more education (lacrosse training at an advanced club team), and the ability to play school ball. If the kid is good enough then he/she should play.... end the politics and the manhood matchup between some town programs and "elite" clubs. The only losers are the kids who are not playing.

I totally agree! There is another side of this to look at. Just like HS coaches shouldn't say "if you play club you will not play for me in school ball", The clubs should not make parents think that "if they don't play for a particular club they want be looked at for a HS team". I have heard this many times with Express and the catholic schools (particularly St. Anthony's). I don't think that if a kid is great that a HS coach wont' play them, but to actually use that as a tactic to get someone to pay and join your club team borders on extortion!