BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums NORTHEAST LACROSSE BOTC MAIN FORUM (LI, CT, WC) Cascade R helmets not certified

After reading this article, how much longer before we find out that the CPX-R, Pro-7 and others with the "seven technology" or similar are also de-certified?

In the spirit of we are all in this mess together, in the spirit of this Festivus holiday season let's commence the Airing of Grievances. At this point we have seen the data and the timeline and the only fair conclusion is that NOCSAE bungles and Cascade and Warrior had at least deficient and less than thorough ongoing testing. That has been outed well by the informed posters on this board and by the excellent articles in 24sevenlax.

1. Cascade and Warrior retailers
If you a family customer of a local lacrosse store where you have bought gear, advice being communicated through Cascade and Warrior through those channels to you is hold tight. Cascade and Warrior are talking it over with NOCSAE and this will all blow over sometime soon over the next few weeks. This is clearly a NOCSAE error or oversight and also an STX conspiracy. How about this LaxWorld, LU, et. al. to lacrosse parents: Lacrosse sucks. It it too expensive for the poor, and it is barely affordable for the middle class and then it is just another country club fee equivalent. For the latter, get your big boy pants on and buy a certified helmet to keep your kids safe. It costs as much as the greens fee you will pay twice this week before caddy tips and cheaper than the dinner tab you will pick up when out with your wife and the people she calls friends.

2. US Lacrosse
Somebody turn off the lights and the phones when you leave tonite. Absentee landlord over the game.

3. NOCSAE
See #2.

4. Club and events guys
We have 3d's response to this, which is basically the equivalent of NASCAR saying we have a race this weekend, and if anyone wants to drive their stock car with brakes we know are faulty, then sign this waiver and all comers welcome. It is as if the only duty of care expected of lacrosse parents is to provide a debit card that will keep swiping. I am curious what the status quo is with other major club or events lacrosse organizations. If 3d has set the standard, this is a weak standard. In terms of being stewards of the game, also see #2 at least as far as 3d is concerned.

5. Bleeping high school coaches.
Gee, did your public high school or private prep school have you order colored Cascade Rs? Mine did too! Actually, my son's school has home and away Cascade Rs and they are both non-whites. Did high school coaches never get word of sticker wraps? Then a kid can re-sticker his helmet between club or school seasons. It would make the game somewhat more affordable for kids who want to play high school. I may go to my grave believing the best under the table deal is from Cascade or retailers and these high school guys to move some colored helmets. I am yet to meet a lacrosse mom or dad who is anything but p.o'ed about buying a yellow, blue, red or other colored lacrosse helmet.

6. NCAA coaches
If a high profile NCAA coach has commented on this atrocity, I would be all eyes to read it or ears to hear it. In the throat of this the only news of the day is one article penned by a lacrosse college coach making soothing comments to parents about encouraging kids to play other school sports. See again #2.

7. Lawyers
Admit it, we all hate them. If you are one admit that you hate yourself and would run away with the blond hostess at your TGI Fridays in a New [lacrosse] minute save for the moral issues surrounding that. Behind every great class action or other civil suit is a lawyer with prior experience in the subject matter. Give some bad paid advice today -- the sweet nothings from Cascade and Warrior, the 3d letter with all the small font disclaimer legalese -- and you are the chosen counsel for the protracted and expensive messes this will create saying nothing of the continued risks to the kids playing this game. I call that the lawyers' forward employment act. Have some balls counselors...your clients are asking for comfort letters to keep a status quo that we know is unsafe and unsound. $400 an hour to you makes that a risk you can live with?

7. Us, the bleeping lacrosse parents
In the recent couple weeks we have learned that Cascade and Warrior are at least incompetent, have communicated half truths to the retailers about this being no biggie which should blow over soon. The retail guys repeat that to you, and the next layer of comfort is the club and events guys saying for now just wear non-certified helmets because hey...we can't even remember the last time we bothered to to a US Lacrosse sanctioned event under USL insurance policies (snort, snarfell, giggle). We privately insure anyways and what's more fun this winter, box lacrosse or pilates for your sons? Just poke at the alpha dad in all of us since most dads were either insecure junior varsity guys in high school or lacrosse players from back in the day when lacrosse was basically a club sport masquerading as a real college sport, and the tradesmen (see #1 through #6) know that hits us where our macho pride can really hurt.

Really, it is ok to put away that circa 1970s Hopkins 'ship ring, stop listening to all the cheerleaders (see #1 through #6) and think about your kids. I am middle class with three kids playing the game and I am getting new helmets this weekend. That sucks. This sport is always filling my email box and voice mail with exciting opportunities to part with $150-$250 a day playing lacrosse events of some kind, club fees due reminders, club apparel gear for new seasons, clinics or all those flattering and exclusive prospect days or showcases. The bottom line is if your kid loves lacrosse like mine do, you suck it up. I hate it when clubs do winter training in 20 degree weather for Sundays in December through January. That means 4-6 broken heads that need to be replaced. I am probably a lot like many of you. I watch the sales and inventory stuff at home so that I can have a few replacements of items that will wear and break. Think about this...if a club coach called and said Hopkins wants your boy but they also need to evaluate him on their field at a prospect day. 99% plus percent of the lacrosse parents still reading my drivel would pay that prospect day fee and pay for travel to get yourself and your son there. You don't like it, because Petro and the rest can and should damn straight evaluate kids at tournaments and could invite prospects at no cost to a prospect day (or for a $40 type "tryout" equivalent fee) but they don't want to because they want that money for their assistant coaching staff. From you. Ok, my assumption is nearly all of us would do that. Because you believe it is consequential if you passed on it. Love or hate your Cascade R or Warrior Regulator, but realize right now that it is broken like a broken head. I needs to be replaced. It needs to be done or it is consequential, and your son's health is a lot more consequential than a roster spot at Hopkins or anywhere else. Think about the day your son was born and the greatest gifts he keeps giving you for being his son, and put on your big boy pants and do what is needed to keep him safe because you love him.

After reading through your post (as unbelievable as that is) I'm stuck on this:

"Love or hate your Cascade R or Warrior Regulator, but realize right now that it is broken like a broken head. I needs to be replaced. It needs to be done or it is consequential"

Really? You're that certain of the charge and put so much faith in the banana republic of a certification regime?

I've yet to see anything that convinces me that the Cascade R and Warrior Regulator are inherently unsafe in on-field situations and/or are materially less safe than the STX creation.

Enjoy spending $750 this weekend, assuming 3 helmets for your brood. I'll sign a waiver and reserve judgment for more concrete information.

Here is what one of the largest club and events chain sent out last night, and would be curious how other clubs or events chains are communicating:

Dear 3d Customers,

As you may be aware, the National Operating Committee on Standards for Athletic Equipment (NOCSAE) recently announced that it has voided the manufacturers' NOCSAE certification for the Cascade Model R and Warrior Regulator lacrosse helmets. We do not know why this determination was made and we wanted to address the issue as it relates to your participation in 3d Lacrosse, LLC events and programs.

As with all 3d events and programs, all participants sign a waiver confirming that they are fully aware of and appreciate the risks associated with participation in lacrosse programming and/or events (please see below regarding Some Risks of Playing Lacrosse.) To that end, we are notifying all participants that, by participating in our events or programs, you acknowledge that you are aware of the NOCSAE announcement regarding the voiding of certification of the Cascade Model R and Warrior Regulator lacrosse helmets and that, if you (your son or daughter) chooses to participate in our events or programs while wearing either of these specified models, that your (their) participation is voluntary and that you knowingly assume all risks inherent in their participation.

This notice informs you of the assumption of risk and, by freely and voluntarily participating in our event, you confirm that you are giving up substantial Rights, including your right to sue, and providing 3d Lacrosse, LLC an unconditional release of all liability to the fullest extent allowed by the law.

Please see the following websites for information about how to handle replacement helmets and other details.

Inside Lacrosse

Lax Power

US Lacrosse

24 Seven Lax

Should you have any questions or comments, please do not hesitate to contact us at info@3dlacrosse.com or (303) 346-2888.

We look forward to seeing you on the field!

Sincerely,

3d Lacrosse

SOME RISKS OF PLAYING LACROSSE
Lacrosse is a rough body contact sport. Seven injuries, including face, head and neck injuries, can and do occur while playing. Accidents happen. People get hurt. When you play violently and illegally, more people get hurt. Many of these injuries could cripple you or your opponent severely. You could live the rest of your life in a wheelchair or worse. These injuries may include not being able to move your legs (paraplegia), not being able to move your whole body from the neck down (quadriplegia) and death. There are rules and equipment to reduce these risks, but they cannot prevent them. Only you can make the real difference. To even begin to reduce your risk of serious injury, the proper equipment must be worn and worn correctly. You must also read the rules, understand them fully and obey them at all times. If you are not sure what they mean, ask your coach to explain them to you. Playing "dirty" adds to the risk of serious injury. Obeying the rules may not be enough. There is no way to protect yourself fully from all injuries. Nothing can protect you from another player's lack of judgment or accidents. You accept these risks when you walk onto the field.

Here is what one of the largest club and events chain sent out last night, and would be curious how other clubs or events chains are communicating:

Dear 3d Customers,

As you may be aware, the National Operating Committee on Standards for Athletic Equipment (NOCSAE) recently announced that it has voided the manufacturers' NOCSAE certification for the Cascade Model R and Warrior Regulator lacrosse helmets. We do not know why this determination was made and we wanted to address the issue as it relates to your participation in 3d Lacrosse, LLC events and programs.

As with all 3d events and programs, all participants sign a waiver confirming that they are fully aware of and appreciate the risks associated with participation in lacrosse programming and/or events (please see below regarding Some Risks of Playing Lacrosse.) To that end, we are notifying all participants that, by participating in our events or programs, you acknowledge that you are aware of the NOCSAE announcement regarding the voiding of certification of the Cascade Model R and Warrior Regulator lacrosse helmets and that, if you (your son or daughter) chooses to participate in our events or programs while wearing either of these specified models, that your (their) participation is voluntary and that you knowingly assume all risks inherent in their participation.

This notice informs you of the assumption of risk and, by freely and voluntarily participating in our event, you confirm that you are giving up substantial Rights, including your right to sue, and providing 3d Lacrosse, LLC an unconditional release of all liability to the fullest extent allowed by the law.

Please see the following websites for information about how to handle replacement helmets and other details.

Inside Lacrosse

Lax Power

US Lacrosse

24 Seven Lax

Should you have any questions or comments, please do not hesitate to contact us at info@3dlacrosse.com or (303) 346-2888.

We look forward to seeing you on the field!

Sincerely,

3d Lacrosse

SOME RISKS OF PLAYING LACROSSE
Lacrosse is a rough body contact sport. Seven injuries, including face, head and neck injuries, can and do occur while playing. Accidents happen. People get hurt. When you play violently and illegally, more people get hurt. Many of these injuries could cripple you or your opponent severely. You could live the rest of your life in a wheelchair or worse. These injuries may include not being able to move your legs (paraplegia), not being able to move your whole body from the neck down (quadriplegia) and death. There are rules and equipment to reduce these risks, but they cannot prevent them. Only you can make the real difference. To even begin to reduce your risk of serious injury, the proper equipment must be worn and worn correctly. You must also read the rules, understand them fully and obey them at all times. If you are not sure what they mean, ask your coach to explain them to you. Playing "dirty" adds to the risk of serious injury. Obeying the rules may not be enough. There is no way to protect yourself fully from all injuries. Nothing can protect you from another player's lack of judgment or accidents. You accept these risks when you walk onto the field.

Ahhh...here the lawyers and the legal threats...IMO, simply do not play in 3D events...let them play with themselves. Nice to see that they are worried about their [lacrosse] and not your child.

I'll bet once their numbers go down they will have a different "document" in place or none at all.

Ahhh...here the lawyers and the legal threats...IMO, simply do not play in 3D events...let them play with themselves. Nice to see that they are worried about their [lacrosse] and not your child.

I'll bet once their numbers go down they will have a different "document" in place or none at all.

I guess the biggest question is whether the helmets can be re-conditioned? That is what I want answered by Cascade. If not, then we look for an alternative and get ready to receive the soliciation from some law firm starting a class action against Cascade for selling an unsafe product. Even if your kid never gets hurt because of the helmet (and let's hope none ever do) Cascade still sold a product that, unless it can be effectively reconditioned, is now useless. I am into Cascade for $400 for two "R" helmets which were both purchased in the last 6 months. I shouldn't have to eat that cost when we purchased two identical model helmets that were sold as being compliant with safety guidelines. Cascade needs to come up with some solution....This is taking too long.

I guess the biggest question is whether the helmets can be re-conditioned? That is what I want answered by Cascade. If not, then we look for an alternative and get ready to receive the soliciation from some law firm starting a class action against Cascade for selling an unsafe product. Even if your kid never gets hurt because of the helmet (and let's hope none ever do) Cascade still sold a product that, unless it can be effectively reconditioned, is now useless. I am into Cascade for $400 for two "R" helmets which were both purchased in the last 6 months. I shouldn't have to eat that cost when we purchased two identical model helmets that were sold as being compliant with safety guidelines. Cascade needs to come up with some solution....This is taking too long.

From what I've been told at LU, the helmets are safe. It's just the language on "helmet settings" in the pamphlets that come with these helmets that needs to be changed.

In the meantime, we are all left in the lurch.

From what I've been told at LU, the helmets are safe. It's just the language on "helmet settings" in the pamphlets that come with these helmets that needs to be changed.

In the meantime, we are all left in the lurch.

Please someone correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the last several helmet designs produced by Cascade (CSX-R and Pro-7) so similar that they too would fail? If the R was supposed to be the latest improvement over the ones with the seven technology, wouldn't they (the Rs) perform better? They added extra protection, whatever that yellow liner is, this certainly shouldn't make it worse. So should we then conclude, and maybe NOCSAE will too one day, that the last several Cascade helmets would also fail? I don't know who is wrong, but now that the impact data has come to light, shouldn't NOCSAE then doubt the previous SELF-REPORTED data Cascade has provided? I don't think this is over by along-shot. My second choice would be to buy a CSX-R, but I wonder if it'll be next on the "don't-use-this-helmet-until-we get-this-resolved list".

My son is a college player and has been issued 3 of these R helmets, practice, home and away. I asked my son about it, he said his schools coaching staff hasn't said a word about it. In fact, they are practicing with them as we speak. As a parent, I'm concerned about my son's safety. These are not little kids running around out there, they are grown men. Any advice on how I can tactfully raise this issue with the staff?

My son is a college player and has been issued 3 of these R helmets, practice, home and away. I asked my son about it, he said his schools coaching staff hasn't said a word about it. In fact, they are practicing with them as we speak. As a parent, I'm concerned about my son's safety. These are not little kids running around out there, they are grown men. Any advice on how I can tactfully raise this issue with the staff?

My son is a college player and has been issued 3 of these R helmets, practice, home and away. I asked my son about it, he said his schools coaching staff hasn't said a word about it. In fact, they are practicing with them as we speak. As a parent, I'm concerned about my son's safety. These are not little kids running around out there, they are grown men. Any advice on how I can tactfully raise this issue with the staff?

My son is a college player and has been issued 3 of these R helmets, practice, home and away. I asked my son about it, he said his schools coaching staff hasn't said a word about it. In fact, they are practicing with them as we speak. As a parent, I'm concerned about my son's safety. These are not little kids running around out there, they are grown men. Any advice on how I can tactfully raise this issue with the staff?

***if your son is one of the grown men he should ask the coach himself.

He's already done that! With the response "we're looking into it".
I guess your stupid condescending comment means it's not appropriate for me to be concerned about my son's safety??? Don't need my son getting an injury that could plague him for the rest of his life for a GAME!!! All because the coach doesn't want to deal with the issue.
What a tough guy you are. Questioning whether he's a grown man or not? I can tell, you are quite the MAN yourself! Making a comment like that hiding behind the safety of your keyboard. A comment you KNOW you would never make to mine, or any other grown man's face.

Does anyone have the real scoop as to why these helmets have been decertified?

I just called the 800 number for Cascade that all of the online information directs me to call. I was told that I could check to see if a local retailer would replace this Cascade R with something that's "certified", problem is she says "most retailers don't have any helmets left to exchange" and my second problem is, this helmet is customized making it nearly impossible to exchange. The real intent of my phone call was to determine if these helmets were decertified because of a safety issue or is it truly a paperwork misunderstanding? I never got the straight answer and the representative suddenly was very quiet when I informed her that my son, on his very first day of wearing this brand new Cascade R $300 helmet suffered a pretty significant concussion.

Does anyone have the real scoop as to why these helmets have been decertified?

I look at this differently; 3d giving the user a choice and promoting personal liability, which is refreshing in the nanny state that we are becoming. They are also not forcing participants to run out and buy a helmet while this is all up in the air. Not a bad deal really.

My kid also got a concussion in the weeks before the de-certification using his R. He has another friend who got a really bad concussion, coincidentally while using the R in September. Is NOCSAE or CASCADE or STX or anyone trying to collect data on actual head injuries while using the R? Who cares about the politics? I just want my kid in a safe helmet. It is clearly not the most safe helmet and doesn't even meet the legal standard.

He's already done that! With the response "we're looking into it".
I guess your stupid condescending comment means it's not appropriate for me to be concerned about my son's safety??? Don't need my son getting an injury that could plague him for the rest of his life for a GAME!!! All because the coach doesn't want to deal with the issue.
What a tough guy you are. Questioning whether he's a grown man or not? I can tell, you are quite the MAN yourself! Making a comment like that hiding behind the safety of your keyboard. A comment you KNOW you would never make to mine, or any other grown man's face.

My son has had the R since it came out and has been hit several times and has had no issues, he is an aggressive defense-man and his team plays extremely physical games.