BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums NORTHEAST LACROSSE BOTC MAIN FORUM (LI, CT, WC) Cascade R helmets not certified

My kid also got a concussion in the weeks before the de-certification using his R. He has another friend who got a really bad concussion, coincidentally while using the R in September. Is NOCSAE or CASCADE or STX or anyone trying to collect data on actual head injuries while using the R? Who cares about the politics? I just want my kid in a safe helmet. It is clearly not the most safe helmet and doesn't even meet the legal standard.

My son also has this helmet and got a concussion. However, in his case no helmet would have stopped it. He was hit in the head by a cheap shot unavoidable cross check. His teammate also was hit by a goalie charging out of the cage with his head down like a raging bull. I think coaches should teach the game of lacrosse and not football. I also think refs should take a serious look at these hits and determine a punishment greater than a 2 minute unreleasable penalty. I would hope cascade and warrior didn't fudge their data and if stx is doing this for marketing, then shame on them.

Has anyone even tried contacting NOCSAE?

EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR / LEGAL COUNSEL

Mike Oliver
NOCSAE Executive Director/Legal Counsel
11020 King Street, Suite 215
Overland Park, Kansas 66210
Phone: 913-888-1340
Fax: 913-498-8817
email: Mike.Oliver@NOCSAE.ORG

Cascade posted an update on their Instagram.. Looks like a solution in a couple more days.

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Has anyone even tried contacting NOCSAE?

EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR / LEGAL COUNSEL

Mike Oliver
NOCSAE Executive Director/Legal Counsel
11020 King Street, Suite 215
Overland Park, Kansas 66210
Phone: 913-888-1340
Fax: 913-498-8817

I shot an email to this guy when it first was announced. I questioned whether the CPX-R was included in the reclassification. He responded within minutes. But I sent a reply back as to the specifics of why they are no longer good and he never replied

In order to certify NOCESA should send helmets to independent labs. The lab should always be chosen randomly so there is no inclination to aviod a lab because of unfavorable results. Manufacturers should have to pay yearly for additional random testing of helmets purchased from retailers. Allowing manufacterers to contract labs is a conflict of interest.

Manufacturers in industry and in medical / pharma do the same thing contracting out to 3rd party labs and CROs. I take your points about paid 3rd parties having conflicts as payee to payors like with accounting firms; Arthur Anderson and Enron stuff. To your point these brands do pay to have quality control tests and either do it themselves or contract it out to 3rd party impact labs. The former I don't like either where Cascade or others do it themselves, as that seems like allowing MLB baseball players to be drug tested by their own union. Manufacturers also pay license fees to NOCSAE to conduct ongoing random testing and to randomly review the quality control testing at companies. This is what NOCSAE did in this instance with Cascade and Warrior. We all know now it wasn't really random at all and STX cajoled attention to it, but the point is NOCSAE did their job and fit their role here. If NOCSAE's captive lab in Tennessee is tainted by conflicts, the brands can go to other 3rd party labs to dispute it which Cascade did but then ICS -- which is not NOCSAE's impact lab -- also failed the Cascade R.

My guess yesterday was the only "fix" will be for Cascade to go back to NOCSAE with a proposal for NOCSAE certified AND certified fitted, and that Cascade have authorized dealers in the field trained to fit each helmet before it is considered NOCSAE certified. We know that the Cascade R when fitted straight on is certified. We also know that it is possible for the Cascade R to be manipulated to fit with a forward or backward tilt, and that Cascade R use is not safe or certified.

I doubt that Cascade is able in the course of weeks to fabricate and test out a new component for their helmet, and even if they could they would have to formally go through the NOCSAE approval status all over again and that is a 4-6 week process in the real case with the new component in the Cascade R. What is more likely is Cascade has proposed the fit certification proposal for NOCSAE to consider, and we will all know soon enough if that works or not. It works for football helmets...every kid who plays football has his helmet fitted by the organization or trainers at his school and it is also near impossible to secure a football helmet tilted. I don't find it a small coincidence that Schutt with their core experience in football didn't bring that design knowledge over to STX to improve how lacrosse helmets should fit and then be size custom fitted.

One thing is for certain, Cascade needs to get the R back to commercially viable AND design a new R that has components in it that will block non-confirming fitting soon as they can.

One other thing that will be interesting is that there are plenty of 7,8,9 year olds that are wearing R's that shouldn't be because their heads are too small. I see it all the time, daddy has to buy them the coolest helmet. I would assume that those will not be able to be fitted and they will have to get a new helmet until their head grows a bit.

No helmet can prevent concussions. It's not physiologically possible. The issue with the R has nothing to do with concussion protection.

The human brain is suspended in fluid inside the skull. Concussions happen when the motion of the head is suddenly and violently stopped, allowing the brain to slam into the skull. It's physics and no helmet can protect against that. Perhaps the padding in the helmet can provide some cushion, thereby reducing some of the force of the stop in motion, but it's minimal at best.

The primary function of a helmet is to keep your face and head intact.

Just received this from Loyola... I think the issue is being addressed on whether or not these helmets will be used this coming season.

--

In the past week we have learned that the Cascade Model R and the Warrior Regulator helmet do not meet the NOCSAE helmet standards.

Since learning this news, our men’s lacrosse staff has been trying to get clarity on how these new rules apply to high school sports. Yesterday we were informed from our lacrosse officials union that no lacrosse official will officiate a lacrosse game, at any level (youth, high school, college, pro) where players are using either the Cascade Model R or Warrior Regulator helmet.

NOCSAE’s decision to disallow the use of the Cascade Model R and Warrior Regulator is definitely an inconvenience on all fronts, and we apologize greatly for getting this message out so last minute, however, we were only informed of the affect on high school players yesterday. Please know that we are working hard to potentially have helmets for purchase here tomorrow, but we cannot guarantee that option, at this point. Your best plan of action is to borrow or purchase another model helmet (Warrior T-2, Cascade CPX just to name a few) prior to attending prospect camp tomorrow.

Because this is not a US Lacrosse sanctioned event tomorrow, the officials may not even make it an issue. However, we would like to be proactive and make sure that nothing alters the great day we have planned for the kids. Thanks very much for your help and understanding in this manner.
Respectfully,

Loyola Lacrosse Staff

Manufacturers in industry and in medical / pharma do the same thing contracting out to 3rd party labs and CROs. I take your points about paid 3rd parties having conflicts as payee to payors like with accounting firms; Arthur Anderson and Enron stuff. To your point these brands do pay to have quality control tests and either do it themselves or contract it out to 3rd party impact labs. The former I don't like either where Cascade or others do it themselves, as that seems like allowing MLB baseball players to be drug tested by their own union. Manufacturers also pay license fees to NOCSAE to conduct ongoing random testing and to randomly review the quality control testing at companies. This is what NOCSAE did in this instance with Cascade and Warrior. We all know now it wasn't really random at all and STX cajoled attention to it, but the point is NOCSAE did their job and fit their role here. If NOCSAE's captive lab in Tennessee is tainted by conflicts, the brands can go to other 3rd party labs to dispute it which Cascade did but then ICS -- which is not NOCSAE's impact lab -- also failed the Cascade R.

My guess yesterday was the only "fix" will be for Cascade to go back to NOCSAE with a proposal for NOCSAE certified AND certified fitted, and that Cascade have authorized dealers in the field trained to fit each helmet before it is considered NOCSAE certified. We know that the Cascade R when fitted straight on is certified. We also know that it is possible for the Cascade R to be manipulated to fit with a forward or backward tilt, and that Cascade R use is not safe or certified.

I doubt that Cascade is able in the course of weeks to fabricate and test out a new component for their helmet, and even if they could they would have to formally go through the NOCSAE approval status all over again and that is a 4-6 week process in the real case with the new component in the Cascade R. What is more likely is Cascade has proposed the fit certification proposal for NOCSAE to consider, and we will all know soon enough if that works or not. It works for football helmets...every kid who plays football has his helmet fitted by the organization or trainers at his school and it is also near impossible to secure a football helmet tilted. I don't find it a small coincidence that Schutt with their core experience in football didn't bring that design knowledge over to STX to improve how lacrosse helmets should fit and then be size custom fitted.

One thing is for certain, Cascade needs to get the R back to commercially viable AND design a new R that has components in it that will block non-confirming fitting soon as they can.

As of Wednesday night, you could turn in your R's at any Lacrosse Unlimited and receive a $250 gift card. That may or maynot still be in place as everyday more positive news is coming out in Cascade's favor.

For the life of me I don't understand why given these circumstances Cascade doesn't just eat it all the way down to their cost at no profit to give anyone who is a Cascade R owner a voucher to pay like $80 for a CPX? Sure they'd sell a lot of CPXs at no profit and a lot of their customers would now have two helmets, but offering customers a less expensive short term solution is the very least they could do. Hold on tight bids for time are really bothersome to this family owner of three Rs. If I am paying retail for a helmet now, might as well make it an STX and that is a sad thing to come to as past Cascade fan and client.

Well, queue the snarky comments as I did eat it and bought STX helmets for three kids today. I truly feel misled by Cascade and frankly find what Lacrosse Unlimited as a mouthpiece for hearsays about this all being a little paperwork problem from Cascade's leader just leaves me thinking this remedy coming any moment now is just a figment of Cascade's imagination. Any company worth it's salt would have offered material rebates and it only makes matters look worse and Cascade's story smell more to say they won't / can't ship any CPX models. The only thing I believe now is the opposite of everything Cascade has to say and the CPX is next on the banned list. Over and out...

You can go to a retailer and demand a credit toward a new helmet. They have to honor it. Cascade and Warrior have both said as much.

This news clip is alarming...more than twice the allowable limit?! Yikes.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/topstories/popular-lacrosse-helmets-fail-to-protect-athlete%E2%80%99s-skulls/vp-9fba49a8-5bda-4afb-817b-37dee73cb096

You can go to a retailer and demand a credit toward a new helmet. They have to honor it. Cascade and Warrior have both said as much.

Anyone actually done this? ^^ And did they give you low-ball used "blue book" or the original retail? Thanks much!

Gee, you don't think I asked for that at LU ?!? No refunds, no vouchers and certainly no price other than what it costs to buy another helmet and more of the same...hold tight, this is a paperwork problem only, and any day now it will be resolved. Rinse and repeat. If Cascade were an automaker they'd be out of business.