BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums NORTHEAST LACROSSE BOTC MAIN FORUM (LI, CT, WC) Cascade R helmets not certified

I have a lot of respect for Cascade. I showed up on Cascade's doorstep unannounced one summer day and was given a full tour of their facility by one of their top designers. They could have easily told me that their are no tours or gift shop or company store and given me a list of local shops and sent me on my way. Instead, one of their top designers gave me an extensive tour of their manufacturing, design, and testing facilities - which I will never forget. Having seen their testing capabilities and the results of those tests, I have no doubt they are making the safest helmets possible. Something is really rotten here if Cascade takes a financial hit over some marketing ploy by another company.

Cascade fan or not the post earlier with the lab analysis is pretty damning. I rather doubt an independent lab would knowingly taint the testing baseline for helmets by strapping them on incorrectly inviting variance and taint to the results, but I could be wrong. What dog does two independent labs with their own reputations on the line have to gain in doing that or going along with an STX ploy? This is a really hard issue, and again I repeat my disappointment that silence is reigning at Cascade. Their company and reputation are on the line and time is an enemy. They at least need to go on record to dispute these lab tests or acknowledge them and state they will fix in days not weeks. This is no time the lawyer time, despite those liabilities the business mortal risk is a greater liability. After all, is Cascade makes great helmets like I believe they do and this is an administrative or testing environment taint matter just state a position.

Got email from Lacrosse Unlimited:

Taking pre-orders for Cascade's R for delivery after production resumes.

"Lacrosse Unlimited believes that the current Cascade R will be re-certified in the near future"

For what its worth...

If your child sustained ANY type of head injury while wearing the R or Warrior helmet you have the right to be very angry. You also should contact an attorney NOW.

Cascade has taken a position and dispute the decertification; go to their site: cascadelacrosse.com They're working on it and even asking R owners to register their helmet serial numbers and providing emailed updates. Here's the verbiage:

The National Operating Committee on Standards for Athletic Equipment (NOCSAE) has announced that the Cascade R model lacrosse helmet no longer complies with NOCSAE standard ND041 and that Cascade's certification of compliance on that helmet model only is invalid. All other Cascade models in the field are certified.

We are working with NOCSAE to clarify the concerns and appropriately address the issue. However, our first priority is always our loyal Cascade players.

Players not in immediate need of a certified helmet are encouraged to retain their helmet. Cascade is confident that we will be able to re-certify the helmet and that recertification could be a simple fix. We expect to communicate all available remedies as soon as possible, once approved by NOCSAE.

We will communicate with you through the email you provided here as updates become available and ultimately any next steps you will need to take to ensure you have a certified helmet for the season.


REGISTER YOUR R HELMET HERE: R.CascadeLacrosse.com

If you have any questions you can always phone Customer Service at 800.537.1702.

We are communicating the following information to players and coaches:
• If you are a player that owns an R helmet and are not using it until the season starts, input your contact information here. In the coming weeks, we will have a procedure in place for you to ensure you have a certified helmet for the season.

• If you are a team that has R helmets and do not need to use them until the season starts, input your contact information here. In the coming weeks we have a procedure in place for you to ensure you have a certified helmet for the season.

• If you are a player that owns an R helmet and has games in November/Early December but do not own or have access to another certified helmet, call Cascade Customer Service at 800.537.1702. We can assist in connecting you with your preferred participating to understand if they have the ability to fit you with a certified helmet.

• If you are a team that owns R helmets and has games in November/Early December but do not have another certified helmet solution, please contact Cascade customer service at 800.537.1702 and we will do our best to find a lacrosse retailer to support your needs.

Detailed instructions on necessary steps will be made available on our web site www.CascadeLacrosse.com and provided to all relevant governing bodies as soon as they become available.

It is important to note that the Cascade R model has passed applicable NOCSAE standards at two separate, independent, NOCSAE-accredited test labs commissioned by the Company.

We apologize for the confusion and disruption caused by the recent announcement. We know you have trusted Cascade and our products for more than 28 years and we will do everything in our power to ensure that trust remains for many years to come.

Thank you,

Cascade Lacrosse

It looks like Cascade and Warrior may have more than just a misunderstanding on their hands.

Here is a really in-depth article on how NOCSAE handled this incident:

http://24sevenlax.com/nocsae-nixes-r-and-regulator/

I think the sights should be targeted on NOCSAE. According to the article the data from Cascade sent to NOCSAE showed high failure rates based on helmet positioning and they allowed the certification to remain in force for over a year and a half. NOCSAE needs to be held accountable for their non action if you are one who believes their statement in the first place. Anyone who deals with safety certifications knows NOCSAE is completely at fault here and is looking for a scape goat. STX has also proven their helmet could not beat out the others without the back handed BS approach taken. [lacrosse]! STX.

Oh yes, please follow the path set by football and get bigger heavier helmets so the players can use them as weapons to hit with. It has worked out so well in football, what could go wrong.

solution to all this is to buy the older models and boycott STX... simple. we have used cascade for years and never had an issue. we currently own 2 Rs and will continue to use them.

Not looking for a day long battle, just a question. Why boycott STX? Is there an issue there too?

STX contacted NOCSAE and had them investigate Cascade and Warrior. The data from the certified labs shows conflicting results depending on batches and helmet tilt. STX blew the whistle (unfairly) to gain an advantage as they unveiled their first ever helmet. Bottom line, the STX helmet sucks per field tests at major college programs. No one likes it so to save face they had to do something. They chose the LOW ROAD. STX lost my business and the business of many in the lax community. Their plan is backfiring.

A couple years ago STX needed the Nike deal to save themselves from bankruptcy. They were worth so little Nike didn't even bother to buy them and agreed to use STX as a manufacturer for their equipment in lacrosse. It says all that STX makes equipment to be stamped with a swoosh to go on the retail shelf next to their equipment to survive. I don't know about conspiracy theories because this does involve independent labs that tested out Cascade and Warrior helmets, but I agree the timing of the NOCSAE announcement on the same calendar week as the STX Schutt helmet launch leaves a foul smell. It will also be interesting to see if Warrior sues Schutt for stepping into their lacrosse exclusive with D3O. Does not sound like a mess Nike would want to be anywhere near.

My son wears his Pro7 still and has had no issues. He got an R with his club team last year and wore it with no issues. Cascade has always been the standard in helmets for me. Im sure they will work it out.

My son and a few of his other team mates that wear the R have sustained serious cuts on the bridge of their nose that required plastic surgeon to repair. there is a very noticible difference with the leading inside edge of the R and the CPX R. Has anyone experienced or heard of nose injuries? I

If this happened, they are not wearing the helmet properly. Can't just throw strap on and go play. You have to go on site and see how the helmet should be sized and set. This took me an hour with my son's R to get it perfect.

The fitting is very important. There are far too many players buying the latest and greatest and not bothering to fit them properly, if they even fit at all. At a summer event, cascade reps set up a fitting area to help players understand how the adjustments work and in what order to do them to fit the helmet properly. It was not intuitive to most. Read or learn the proper fitting.

I have been a loyal Cascade customer for years, but what you wrote takes me to the other side. If this happened as you wrote, then Cascade helmets are not NOCSAE certified or safe. After a lot of thought and reading the excellent articles tagged by posters on this site, I conclude this is a manufacturer's problem for this reason: you cannot make an argument that a common use of this helmet with variance in the orientations (tilting the beak back or forth, and then clamping that user position secure with the chin straps) is anything but a manufacturer's deficiency. We can't say Cascade is in the clear because common use of their product under unsafe orientations that the design of the product does not constrict. In the design those variables cannot happen. I doubt any kid with a nose or other head trauma injury knew or should have known that helmet tilt -- however minor -- results in a non-certified and unsound product. Cascade didn't overtly recognize and warn against this until a few weeks ago, and even when they had for a brief time before the NOCSAE news it remains not adequate. The Cascade helmet is not a certified safe product because user strapped on orientations variance cannot acceptably go on. The design to AVOID this needs to be better for the product to be safe no different than the impact protection materials in the helmet need to have conforming qualities. Variables in end use means a non conforming helmet NOCSAE cannot keep certified.

You fail to realize the STX helmet and every other type of athletic headgear requires proper fit. Test data will produce a failing grade if not properly fitted during testing. The STX data also shows failing results when improperly fitted. Further, ANY headgear will not prevent concussions. For those suggesting SCHUTT and their football helmet background is beneficial to lacrosse helmet design I will refer you to football player concussion statistics. They are all over the internet.
STX / SCHUTT....no thanks. You can stay in football and try to improve the safety for the players you claim to attempt to protect. Try and improve on THAT product and admit that your greed made you try and cash in on the growth of our sport. Lacrosse is an honorable game played by a fraternity of great athletes. Your dishonorable attempt to hurt Cascade and Warrior will have you running back to the football field. Your inferior helmet should be properly fitted as you run away.

Heard throgh the grapevine that the CEO of Schutt is also on the NOCSAE board.

If that is true the testing is not worth the paper it is printed on an a complete embarrassment to the sport.

Can anyone verify if that is accurate?

Not sure why STX is the bad guy here. As a consumer I want the safest equipment possible. If STX did not report the failures to NOCSAE and it came out in the future that they ignored this, what would that say for their integrity for consumer safety? Yes, it appears that they used this opportunity to throw Cascade and Warrior under the bus, however NOCSAE did not just take their word on the failure. Read the article in the link above. NOCSAE immediately conducted their own certification tests and analyzed all of the test data from the manufactures. Based on those results the helmets were de-certified.

STX is not responsible for the helmets failing the certification tests. They are responsible for making the consumers aware that the helmets that they purchased may not be as safe as they expected.

Is this the LOW ROAD? Maybe. I don't know. (Not sure I care) Bottom line is the consumers were at risk and Cascade and Warrior weren't saying anything.

I appreciate your thoughts and I want the safest equipment possible as well.
Here is the issue with STX/SCHUTT
The data STX referred to and you have cited is incomplete. Independent labs have also certified the Cascade R as being safe. It appears the failure reports generated by specific labs were being investigated by Cascade and NOCSAE prior to STX using the partial results in their advertising campaign. STX then figured out that if they report the failures (disputed due to tilt position during testing) to NOCSAE and create public panic then they would damage the other brands. It seems to have worked on those that take the report and decertification on face value and refuse to put the pieces together. They also are preying on the parents who innocently want the best and safest equipment for their kids. That is the low road reference because the report appears to be incomplete and inaccurate. There has not been a single case of injury reported due to Cascade or Warrior helmet failure in the year plus the R has been used by many thousands of players.
Remember data and reports can be manipulated to favor a company, organization or government.
This whole issue wreaks of personal interest and corruption. You decide.....

Yes, it is true.

http://nocsae.org/board-of-directors/

On this list the industry seats are one Schutt executive and one Nike executive.

I again dispute what some have written here: there should not be such a thing as non-intended use or incorrect use of a helmet. A helmet must be designed to strap on in one usable condition that is correct. The tightening dial for a helmet should not be designed to lock in tilt or other non-intended use. We have not seen this issue with football or hockey helmets, and the dynamic of kids being able to manipulate and then secure an unsafe positioning of a Cascade helmet makes that same helmet non-conforming to the NOCSAE standard under those usage conditions. NOCSAE is not the bad guy for doing their job, but can be blamed for taking so long to point this out.

Your statement is inaccurate again sir. We DO see these same issues in football, hockey and every other sport requiring protective headgear. The issue of improper use and fit is so common EVERY manufacturer of protective headgear prints WARNINGS against said practice. In fact these warnings state that DEATH may occur if fitting is not proper.
Your defense of STX, SCHUTT and NOCSAE is misplaced and your references inaccurate. Further, your constant reference to football helmet safety would be appropriate if it were not for the massive amount of head injuries sustained by players every day!! It also gives the appearance that possibly you have a vested interest in STX/SCHUTT causing your dander to be up. Either way I welcome your thoughts and this community clearly can read between the lines.

I have Cascade helmets for my three sons, but I don't buy conspiracy theories. I called NOCSAE myself as a parent and spoke to David Halstead at NOCSAE's impact labs for about 15 minutes. That is 15 minutes at a time when they can't spare 15 seconds. The mud slinging here at STX is somewhat misplaced. There is no doubt their pre-launch campaign was negative and viscious, but I keep reminding myself that the foundation of their arguments comes from independent lab test data. Warnings to not wear helmets improperly is not a perfect hedge...if a helmet can be manipulated and secured into a tilt that is unsafe or unsound, then so is the product insofar as NOCSAE is concerned, period.

I concur with your point that the relative number of head injuries sustained in football is much greater than in lacrosse because there is legal head on hitting on every play. A good bit of the attribution for football head injuries is the sport itself is unsafe. I don't let my kids play football for that reason. My point is if STX is a safe and conforming helmet but is heavier than non-certified helmets, I would fault toward safer over lighter. I also posted that lacrosse players seem to have too much of a love affair with lighter equipment. Over the years it has thinned out the protective gear and lessened the safety of body armour.

I actually saw the tested product at Boys Latin this spring, and was also handed the D3O orange foam component part not screwed into a helmet. I was amazed how heavy it was considering how foamy and airy it felt. That led to my question as to what the relative weights are for the Cascade R versus the Schutt/STX. All else likely being the same with weight of the helmet shell and face grille, the weight differential is likely the protective foam. To me the D3O felt like and on their website looks like more of an industrial application material than a density and weight material for sporting head gear. It is just as easy to foam carbons or other polymers. It looks to me like STX and Schutt took a ready fire aim approach to the design and used some poorly suited materials because of weight.

So again, I am no big fan of STX but believe that this is more than an administrative bump for Cascade to clear. I like Cascade products and expect they will modify the design so that non-intended end use ranges can be sufficiently reduced. It won't be enough for the position that parents spend an hour noodling with a Cascade R or go to a Cascade tent at an event to get to the proper conforming fit like it is some bespoke Saville Row suit, because it isn't. Commercial helmets cannot be bespoke fitted products save for the back of head rim tighten belt.

One more thing and this is a swipe at NOCSAE...I include myself in a large set of parents who have 1. liked Cascade products for years, 2. had kids playing in Cascade helmets as recently as two weeks ago, and 3. now know that NOCSAE at least knew of some safety concerns or bells to ring at least months ago. Some safety warning from NOCSAE -- and not from Cascade's website diagram that suddenly appeared in early November -- about head tilted fitting being non-conforming would have been good before the biggest club play month of the year.

If you look at NOCSAE's website you do learn that companies like Cascade and STX pay a very rich royalty for each product item sold with a NOCSAE certified seal to NOCSAE. The idea is that NOCSAE keeps up with the resources to monitor and regulate the industry. The more industry grows through products and volume, the richer the royalty stream to NOCSAE. I would love to see NOCSAE financials and would guess they cash flow very well. But then it appears that NOCSAE is a very small group in the Midwest of a few people who answer their own phones. Do they have NOCSAE contractors in the field doing ongoing quality testing and confirming? Did they only first get off the blocks when STX tattled on Cascade and Warrior, then hustle out to the local Lax Unlimited or [lacrosse]'s and buy some helmet samples to catch up on what they were not really monitoring for over 16 months? If there were no Schutt/STX helmet and no negative ad campaign, would NOCSAE have stood still another 16+ months on this without ongoing testing? Would we still have had kids wearing these helmets in an unsound fit not knowing the dangers for another 16 months?

Ok, NOCSAE is not a government regulator but they are a private industry regulator well paid by the same industry. All NOCSAE standards come out of research and testing where the brands industry is the underwriter. All ongoing testing and assurance that the NOCSAE seal means something is a good faith bargain and it now looks like it is reasonable to ask this question: had NOCSAE allowed itself to keep cashing royalties without keeping up with the demands of all their certified industry products? When was the last time NOCASE did field tests and random samples of Cascade R helmets in the 16+ months prior to November 2014.

The best question for NOCSAE now is did you allow yourselves to be outgunned in the field to the point where the industry you are supposed to regulate is left to self police? If the answer is yes, then drastic reforms are needed.

Ok I see the your point. Yes, the intentions of STX were less than admirable.

However the certification tests and data are still being investigated and Cascade and Warrior will not be vindicated until those helmets are re-certified. If they simply discontinue them the question of proper certification testing will always remain.

With respect to the fit and tilt issue, NOCSAE has stated that the standard that is used begins by testing the helmets using the manufactures fit and adjustment recommendations. They then perform additional testing using offset adjustments (which may or may not be the correct fit). The point is if the consumer can wear the helmet tilted forward or back it still needs to provide adequate protection in both positions.

Excellent post. You raise several poignant questions that need to be answered.

In one of the above statements it was mentioned that the fit of these helmets is important. Well I have to say when you go to a retailer and buy one of these helmets being a lacrosse helmet or a football helmet and so on, half the time if not most of the time the person helping to fit you with these helmets doesn't really know how to fit you. My son was basically asked is it comfortable or shake your head to see if it moves to much. I think the companies of these helmets should send out trained sales persons to the retailers to not only give product knowledge of what they are going to sell but also certify them as fit tested specialist once they get trained on how to do so. This will ensure that the helmets are properly fit and will eliminate any of these so called fit issues.

That is an excellent suggested fix. Cascade can have helmets "certified fitted" stamped in addition when kids take to a Cascade registered rep or authorized dealer. If Cascade can train people in the field and have that fulfillment in retail store locations I would hope NOCSAE would give a serious consideration to that.

Wow, this report by Purdue last year should have raised flags as well.

http://24sevenlax.com/reaction-to-nocsaes-decision-to-decertify-two-popular-helmets/

Great reporting. This guy should be on Inside Edition.

Guess my kid is getting a STX helmet for Christmas!

"it was NOCSAE’s position that the voiding of the certification was premised almost entirely upon the fact that neither company could support certification of the model based on their own internal test data in the first place."

This is nail in coffin stuff for Cascade and for the Warrior helmets.

While the approach taken by STX seems incredibly self serving I appreciate the data turned over. I don't appreciate the fact that NOCSAE seems to have zero liability in this situation despite being the SOLE regulator of helmet safety. It's also quite disturbing that although NOCSAE apparently does minimal if any field testing or actual inspecting yet receives millions in royalties for their certification and safety seal. The single entity that needs to be investigated and possibly replaced is NOCSAE. Our kids have been playing with these allegedly dangerous helmets for over 18 months, all the while bearing the NOCSAE seal. Disgusting!! Why is there not more outrage pointed squarely at NOCSAE. We should all be calling for resignations and certification responsibility changes moving forward to an organization that is involved and thorough. Thoughts?

Sounds like the sound argument you are making leads us to (gulp) a Federal oversight agency for sports equipment safety. Maybe this falls into the arms of OSHA. While I am never a supporter of more government, here is an instance of a crying need for truly independent safety commission and not an industry funded self regulatory body.

Every time someone farts out a new piece of colored mesh or dyes a stick, Inside Lacrosse is on it like stink on you know what. Where are they now? I would argue this is the biggest gear news in the last decade. Virtually every helmet used in the NCAA last year ruled unsafe and all they have done is issue a few press releases.

Federal inclusion is certainly not the solution. They can't even regulate themselves. Lol. I think there should be more than one acceptable safety seal to keep them honest with US Lacrosse being the over sight failsafe. After all we all pay membership fees to belong. Our players safety should be their paramount concern. I agree NOCSAE must go to be replaced by a couple of safety management companies to be over seen by US Lacrosse. Ultimately they are the governing body right?

Test results in a controlled environment are all well and good, but I would like to know exactly how that translates to a real life situation. What exactly is the risk posed by wearing a Cascade R and Warrior Regulator? How much of a percent greater is that risk over the STX? Layman's terms would be helpful here. Further, how was the certification standard developed and does it make sense?

Good point

After reading this article, how much longer before we find out that the CPX-R, Pro-7 and others with the "seven technology" or similar are also de-certified?

Inside Lacrosse along with every other 'lacrosse media' group has skin in the game. They survive off of the advertising dollars from Cascade, Warrior, etc. Its sad that a small blog (24 seven lax) is the only person doing any investigating, speaking to NOCSAE, speaking to STX and writing articles. The self proclaimed Source of the Sport is no where to be found... its a joke. This is the biggest thing to hit the sport in the last several years and no one wants to talk about it. People have tournaments and other things going on now and don't know what to do. There are even D1 teams that have no clue what is going on and their 2015 practices are about 30 days away.