BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums NORTHEAST LACROSSE BOTC MAIN FORUM (LI, CT, WC) Boys 2017 Fall 2014/Summer 2015

Penn State has already redacted one money offer to a 2017 because they found a better Canadian attackman. And this is not the first time that has happened at Penn State. Maryland has done it with current HS grade kids, UNC has done it, Villanova has done it, St. Johns has done it and Georgetown has done it. Those are all the specifics begged for and there they are. Those are the ones I am aware of and the ranges have been "we offered X earlier, but now can only do this much" or "we offered X and we made a decision to add more money to returning players to keep them happy and off the transfer wagon, so come here and earn your way up and sorry about that" or "we found more talented 2017s or 2016s or...we signed two late 2015s...in your class and need to add money to keep everyone happy." This year Maryland shuffled money designated for 2016s and 2017s to get a couple late 2015 bloomers. It takes constant work to shuffle and adjust to get that back. A great program doesn't have spots for some lights out 2015? Nonsense. A kid doesn't need to be a greek god on the field as a senior 2017, he just needs to dust the competition at that point and leave a coach who needs that player no choice. They will make room if they see a kid who has developed into the player they want or need. Last year UVa subtracted from the commits till to give a 4th year walk on goalie money in his last year to reward his commitment and loyalty to the program. Tough guy wants specifics, there are some for you.

My cousin, who was fired as a first assistant at a high profile D1 non-revenue sport program, lived this life first hand. The prior poster is correct...there are a few head count sports where every guy or gal is on 100% or is a walk on, and then there is the small potatoes shuffle it up sports like men's lacrosse.

So it happens, maybe not everywhere, but it happens. A lot. And there is one very good reason why you don't hear about it: who is going to tell you that? The kid and proud daddy who had their money whacked down? I find it curious that all the 2017 dads or dads who have had a whopping data set of one kid who played or is on a roster of a D1 program become the experts. Deal with hundreds of kids and families first, and then type it up. But you can't. Again, I close by saying to my 2017 commit and yours...play fast, work hard and have some fun...like Satchel Page once said don't look back, someone is always on your tail trying to beat you. If this seems crass, then you are in for a big surprise and not a very pleasant one when your kids enters the D1 program.

I guess I am one of the lucky ones, good thing my kid is a lights out type of player, not worried! The picture you paint for these boys sure is depressing. I am more of glass half full type of guy who doesn't assume coaches are flat out lying! Good luck to all

There are like three different arguments going on at the same time.

1--early guys are getting better $ which is why they commit early.

2--four year scholarships

3--nescac

For number 1, it is clear that the earlier you commit, the more 1st year $ you will get. If you look at the top 15 or 20 programs, most have taken their full roster of 2017 and are moving on to 2018. For the parents that say I won't let my kid commit this early, start looking for lower tier d-1 schools like Patriot. They don't give lax money anyway (for the most part) so you don't lose any scholarship opportunity.

I am sure the top programs will have a spot or two later, but unless your kid is a Greek god, it is an awful long shot.

Also, for number 1, I have not heard of a single instance other than failing to meet the grade requirements in which a coach reneged on his verbal early commit $. If someone has seen a coach who committed verbally to a 9th grade kid subsequently reneg on that offer, please share. Again if the kid couldn't make the SAT or GPA requirements, that is not a reneg as it was a condition to the initial package.

So, for number 1, early commits are generally a good thing with higher $ for a one year scholarship that can be renewed or changed by coach after 1st year is complete.

For number 2, we all agree (except for the guy with superman for a son) each year the coach has an opportunity to change the $ allocated up or down. He can cut you if he wants or find a kid that is better...

If your kid got say 25% lax $ and then he got another 25% in merit/gpa $ (total 50%), both can change in year two. For the lax $, the coach can pull them, for merit $, if your kid doesn't keep his GPA over a 3.0 (generally, each school has a little different threshold) he will lose that as well.

I hope a coach never pulls your kids $ but we know it can and has happened.

For number 3, nescac recruit later because they are generally top tier schools but give no lax $ and no merit $. Williams for example is rated number 1 Forbes, called the mini Ivies. Since they are d-3 and since there are no lax $ and no merit $, most of the schools wait while most of the families look to d-1 $ first. Why would a nescac coach waste his time chasing a kid that will likely go to a d-1.

One more point that most of you already know. Lax is a bad sport for scholarship $. at 12.9 for a fully funded program divided by 40-50 players means very little available for each kid.

Worse, many of the programs are no where near fully funded. most Patriots have very little if any lax $ and no merit. They look more like nescac schools...

If your kid has his hear set on going to a great school and playing d-1, open your checkbook a little further because you are looking at $50k plus for tuition and board.

Penn State has already redacted one money offer to a 2017 because they found a better Canadian attackman. And this is not the first time that has happened at Penn State. Maryland has done it with current HS grade kids, UNC has done it, Villanova has done it, St. Johns has done it and Georgetown has done it. Those are all the specifics begged for and there they are. Those are the ones I am aware of and the ranges have been "we offered X earlier, but now can only do this much" or "we offered X and we made a decision to add more money to returning players to keep them happy and off the transfer wagon, so come here and earn your way up and sorry about that" or "we found more talented 2017s or 2016s or...we signed two late 2015s...in your class and need to add money to keep everyone happy." This year Maryland shuffled money designated for 2016s and 2017s to get a couple late 2015 bloomers. It takes constant work to shuffle and adjust to get that back. A great program doesn't have spots for some lights out 2015? Nonsense. A kid doesn't need to be a greek god on the field as a senior 2017, he just needs to dust the competition at that point and leave a coach who needs that player no choice. They will make room if they see a kid who has developed into the player they want or need. Last year UVa subtracted from the commits till to give a 4th year walk on goalie money in his last year to reward his commitment and loyalty to the program. Tough guy wants specifics, there are some for you.

My cousin, who was fired as a first assistant at a high profile D1 non-revenue sport program, lived this life first hand. The prior poster is correct...there are a few head count sports where every guy or gal is on 100% or is a walk on, and then there is the small potatoes shuffle it up sports like men's lacrosse.

So it happens, maybe not everywhere, but it happens. A lot. And there is one very good reason why you don't hear about it: who is going to tell you that? The kid and proud daddy who had their money whacked down? I find it curious that all the 2017 dads or dads who have had a whopping data set of one kid who played or is on a roster of a D1 program become the experts. Deal with hundreds of kids and families first, and then type it up. But you can't. Again, I close by saying to my 2017 commit and yours...play fast, work hard and have some fun...like Satchel Page once said don't look back, someone is always on your tail trying to beat you. If this seems crass, then you are in for a big surprise and not a very pleasant one when your kids enters the D1 program.

You have dealt with 100s of families that have gone through this? Or was it your cousin who you claim was fired?

If all these schools were taking money away from the kids they verbally committed to, wouldn't we see lots of kids changing from one place to another every year?

If your kid was 2017 and committed early and then next year they call and say sorry kid, 50% is now 25% but we still love you, your kid would be running to every other school saying I am now free. Decided I didn't like xxx coach.

I am sorry, you are probably a decent person, but I just don't believe you or it seems I would see proof of it somewhere.

Wouldn't ty or inside lax or the ny times write an article saying the "myths of the early scholarship". Wouldn't they have included at least mention of this in the general article about the one year scholarship?

Shouldn't there be some kids screaming foul? Instead it is just you and your cousin sharing the down fall of early recruiting on an anonymous web?

A fact few know is less than than 20 D1 lacrosse programs are fully funded with 12.5. Just one in the Patriot League, then the ACCs, the Big 10s, Hop and Denver. More than anyone would care to admit are less than 33% funded. And, of course, the Ancient Eight does not do scholarships while the Academies are full grant appointments that can't be considered athletic money.

There's about 450 total scholarship equivalents in D1 lacrosse, which breaks down to about 113 per high school class if all classes are equal. That isn't a huge amount of money for an entire sport.

[quote=Anonymous]
For number 3, nescac recruit later because they are generally top tier schools but give no lax $ and no merit $. Williams for example is rated number 1 Forbes, called the mini Ivies. Since they are d-3 and since there are no lax $ and no merit $, most of the schools wait while most of the families look to d-1 $ first. Why would a nescac coach waste his time chasing a kid that will likely go to a d-1.

This seems like a whacky way to look at it. "Why would a nescac coach waste his time chasing a kid that will likely go to a d-1?" Answer: Because he offers a far superior academic outcome than most middling D-1 schools. No piddly D-1 offer can ever match the value of a Williams or Amherst degree. That's why the highest ranked D3s should go after the best D-1 caliber talent. Not every family can be so short sighted that a few thousand bucks means didly 40 years down the road. Still haven't heard a good reason why D3s don't seem to verbally commit to prospects until after Junior year.

On another note - who thinks the debacle at UNC is going to shake up the apple cart on their recruiting efforts as well as those of other like-minded basket weaving 101 institutions in the D1 ranks? Think Michigan, OSU, PSU etc have had some interesting internal conference calls over the past few days? What about the implicit comforting recruiting pitch of "academic support - tutors etc.." that has been offered as an attraction to the knuckle head athlete being recruited? What happens to that kid when he shows up on campus and the UNC thing has changed everything so basket weaving becomes hard core physics. Yikes.

Most families can't afford the $60k per year at williams. My son would be there but cannot justify the cost. Great school, but not ivy. So, those schools wait for people that can pay and are good. Most of the best go d-1 whether that makes sense to you or not. Whacky? Not sure I think the logic is whacky but to each their own

This seems like a whacky way to look at it. "Why would a nescac coach waste his time chasing a kid that will likely go to a d-1?" Answer: Because he offers a far superior academic outcome than most middling D-1 schools. No piddly D-1 offer can ever match the value of a Williams or Amherst degree. That's why the highest ranked D3s should go after the best D-1 caliber talent. Not every family can be so short sighted that a few thousand bucks means didly 40 years down the road. Still haven't heard a good reason why D3s don't seem to verbally commit to prospects until after Junior year.

On another note - who thinks the debacle at UNC is going to shake up the apple cart on their recruiting efforts as well as those of other like-minded basket weaving 101 institutions in the D1 ranks? Think Michigan, OSU, PSU etc have had some interesting internal conference calls over the past few days? What about the implicit comforting recruiting pitch of "academic support - tutors etc.." that has been offered as an attraction to the knuckle head athlete being recruited? What happens to that kid when he shows up on campus and the UNC thing has changed everything so basket weaving becomes hard core physics. Yikes.

On UNC, here is what I know...I am NOT a UNC insider, but am close to another ACC school and the AD at that school. In summary, I can say that this is something the ADs in the ACC have been very worried about for over a year. In the end, UNC and the conference prays the punishment will be financial (>$100mm) and not a sanction to probation men's basketball or football. Financial is something UNC and the ACC can handle.

The odds that the punishment is money would be anyone's guess. I and others doubt an SMU type death penalty is happening here or will ever happen again. At SMU the entire athletic department was wiped out for decades. I also think the major sanctions the NCAA has handed out have lessened more towards money over program probations as years pass. The NCAA also basically killed Univ of Miami in the 1990s, and is not as keen on killing golden gooses in the big football and b'ball conferences. Penn State was really ugly in terms of what it was, but to be fair the punishment there did fit the crimes and for a first time the NCAA pointed more toward a money truck punishment. Penn State weathered that well and will recover, and that is important because it is what the NCAA wants...money and viability after a price and a punishment are metted out at a Penn State or now a UNC. This is bad, and something is coming for sure against UNC.

In regards to lacrosse, the program at UNC is clean. The Cadwalader report investigated mens's football, men's and women's b'ball, baseball and women's soccer (see full report at http://cdn.swimswam.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/UNC-FINAL-REPORT.pdf). In the end, football and men's b'ball were found to have years of the wrongdoings for academic fraud and the two flagship non-revenue sports mentioned where UNC is a gold standard (baseball and women's soccer) were deemed clean. If I were a UNC commit's family I would pass no worry these wrongdoings went down the corridor into UNC's lax program. That said, money sanctions and probations that are really draconian have one immediate impact, and that is a negative operating budget and other hit to the non-revenue sports. Just the way it is. The downside is that UNC is still a great lax institution, but the that very bad sanctions COULD affect the operating budget of the program for the probation and money sanction punishment years. UNC is very well funded, but it is possible that at worst the team goes to away games in Maryland by bus and not plane. Like the good 'ole days we old farts always had.

I am another rival ACC guy and hate Carolina blue, but with respect. You want your rivals to be the best and bring their best, or a rivalry is nothing. All the best to UNC.

Interesting perspective but I think you've missed the most important point entirely. It's not about the money or the NCAA death penalty. It's about the academic reputation of the school. Shattered. Worthless. Destroyed. All the money in the world can't fix that and it affects every athlete at UNC regardless of whether their particular sport was implicated or not. It's like Wall Street, it only takes a few bad apples to destroy the reputation of the entire firm. Nothing worse than reputational destruction. Will never go away and recruits will go elsewhere, which will kill the athletic department without the NCAA having to do it. They're screwed. Plain and simple. Even if my kid were recruited to play there (he wasn't), what's a UNC athlete's degree worth now? Zero. Besides other UNC alums, who's going to hire them?

Really? A year from now no one, let a lone a hiring manager at a company, is going to have even a partial recollection of what went down here. Further, what majors do you think the offenders were? Finance? No chance. They had some BS unheard of major that wouldn't have gotten them a job even with a legit UNC degree. It's not like any of these kids were on track to go to work for Exxon Mobil, IBM, Google or B of A if the football thing didn't work out. Let's be honest.

I'm a hiring manager for a very big corporation. I would be very skeptical now of any UNC athlete sitting in front of me for an interview. Will not be forgotten for a long time. Too many other fine athletes from other legit schools to look at, It's a huge problem for UNC athletes and its not going away anytime soon. This is just the beginning. 60 minutes next.

That's not fair to generalize all UNC athletes in that way. That's just being label conscious. Evaluate the person for who they are and what they bring to the table.

Let's face it, UNC is just the latest program to come to the surface. The whole business of collegiate athletics, specifically at big-time schools, has an under current of impropriety. Coaches and AD's are always dancing on the tightrope of right and wrong.

That's not real life. Like the lacrosse recruiting process itself, corporate hiring is the same deal. So much great academic talent coming out of great schools that hiring managers are looking for reasons to eliminate candidates from a very competitive pool and this is an easy one to cross somebody off the list and move on to the next great kid. Just human nature. Never going to change and UNC just made it infinitely harder on their athletes. I wouldn't be surprised to see a few current players transfer and a few high school verbals decommit and put themselves back in the recruiting pool and make it even more competitive for any remaining spots at other top programs than it currently already is. You don't think other coaches are reaching out to UNC's recruits to see how strong their loyalty really is in light of all that has happened? Lets see what the next 12 months brings and revisit. Joe Breschi and other UNC coaches have their work cut out to stay competitive. 5 years from now UNC will be the doormat of the ACC.

UNC's lacrosse recruiter left over the summer. I wonder if he was smart to see this coming. Now he is in the same position at UPenn.

UPenn just publicly committed a 2018. A high school freshman with no grades, no scores. From a lacrosse evaluation perspective, the recruiting tournaments for clubs in fall don't start until this weekend.

This is lunacy. An Ivy League school allowing a coach this latitude? I am sure this kid is an exceptional lacrosse player, but if I had a UPenn degree I would feel pretty embarrassed and offended by these admissions spot hall passes for kids with junior high school transcripts. Most applicants to UPenn submit perfect grades and scores into their senior year, and most of them don't get in.

Who is the commit? From Long Island?

Who is the commit? From Long Island?

UNC's lacrosse recruiter left over the summer. I wonder if he was smart to see this coming. Now he is in the same position at UPenn.

UPenn just publicly committed a 2018. A high school freshman with no grades, no scores. From a lacrosse evaluation perspective, the recruiting tournaments for clubs in fall don't start until this weekend.

This is lunacy. An Ivy League school allowing a coach this latitude? I am sure this kid is an exceptional lacrosse player, but if I had a UPenn degree I would feel pretty embarrassed and offended by these admissions spot hall passes for kids with junior high school transcripts. Most applicants to UPenn submit perfect grades and scores into their senior year, and most of them don't get in.

My son will leave 8th grade with 4 HS classes under his belt and 2 regents tests complete. Students in my area also have been invited to take SATs in MS. I'm not sure what the case is for the recruit, but there are 8th graders that can show mastery of HS courses before they start Freshman year. A top student isn't going to fall to an avg student in 2 years. I do think it is wise to wait and see, but the kid may have already proven himself in some way.

Must be either PA/NJ/LI or NE. The Canadians and MD kids generally do not go IVY (there are exceptions so don't go crazy). Now, before we all get crazy, keep in mind that this kid does not even have a "likely" letter and certainly has not passed through admissions. All he has done is commit to the admissions process when the time comes. If he doesn't get the grades, he will not get in and he'll play elsewhere. No winks or faint promises will get the kid in - he will have to earn it although for sure he can get in with grades below the avg penn applicant - but they still have to be very strong grades and test scores before he gets his "likely" letter. Unfortunately, we're now likely to see a bunch of these "diaper" committed to the admissions process announcements from the other IVYs too. Just grin and bear it.

I'll tell you what's crazy though. A kid committing to High Point over Cornell. Clearly a 4 year lax decision and not a 40 year consideration.

A defenseman from GC committed in early 2014 which would be Feb of 9th grade.....so this is even earlier...although not by much. Not the first time UPenn has gone after a freshman is the point. At the rate they are going they'll be committing 8th graders in the next two years! Ha!

8th grade (even sometimes 7th grade) student may take a SUBJECT SAT if they are in accelerated classes for math and science.

No HS grades or scores. I wonder how enthused the admissions officers at these schools are about what is going on, or if it may bite back later.

Must be either PA/NJ/LI or NE. The Canadians and MD kids generally do not go IVY (there are exceptions so don't go crazy). Now, before we all get crazy, keep in mind that this kid does not even have a "likely" letter and certainly has not passed through admissions. All he has done is commit to the admissions process when the time comes. If he doesn't get the grades, he will not get in and he'll play elsewhere. No winks or faint promises will get the kid in - he will have to earn it although for sure he can get in with grades below the avg penn applicant - but they still have to be very strong grades and test scores before he gets his "likely" letter. Unfortunately, we're now likely to see a bunch of these "diaper" committed to the admissions process announcements from the other IVYs too. Just grin and bear it.

I'll tell you what's crazy though. A kid committing to High Point over Cornell. Clearly a 4 year lax decision and not a 40 year consideration.

Just been through this process. Committing to admissions process at ivy is same as a verbal commitment at non ivy. Basically the coach does his due diligence with regard to character, academics, skill. Then based on that, he takes a calculated chance on the player- a leap of faith. If the kid doesn't hold up to coaches expected standards, the kid is out of luck.