BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums NORTHEAST LACROSSE BOTC MAIN FORUM (LI, CT, WC) Boys 2017 Fall 2014/Summer 2015

the boys were caught posting a "prank" video without thinking of the consequences of their action... simple.
hopefully they, and all the boys, can learn to think before acting...

Another example of how the students and parents money make the school. The school doesn't make the students. They don't take anyone, but sound students and well behaved kids. As soon as there's a problem academically or behaviorally they throw the kids out. It's not like the school is molding young men and teaching them to over come issues. They eliminate the issues. Then throw a lot of work at really smart kids that would have been in AP classes in PS. Somehow they take credit for kids that would have been just a successful anyway. Now if they were taking academically troubled kids and turning them into scholars or misbehaved kids a turning them into model students you might have something, but they don't do either. [/quote]

You are frighteningly clueless. [/quote]

So they let academically challenged kids and those with behavioral problems in now? Sorry who's clueless? Look in the mirror.

Maryland parent again here. Why the repeated vitriol? What if there was an anonymous "lacrosse parent stories" thread on BOTC where people came on anonymously and trashed certain club families? There'd be a lot of material and we all know that from having lived the sidelines show.

Two 15-16 year old LI kids at one LI private school had a behaviour problem and a consequence for it. No crime, drugs or tragedy involved. Have some restraint and some class, and remember you too have a teenage son. They're expected to supposed to make some life mistakes now and learn from them. Else be the forty-something making mistakes and that is a lot more consequential. Let 15-16 year olds be to an extent to make a mistake like this and learn to remedy it going ahead. We don't need to celebrate that one way or defend it next. It makes imperfect people better, and we are all imperfect people (especially lacrosse parents).

Maryland parent, you need to stop posting on this site - you make way too much sense to be here. There but by the grace of God go I comes to mind here. I am that 40-something adult who made all kinds of stupid mistakes when I was a teenager and am just thankful I did not come of age with social media there to document those mistakes. From what I understand of the facts here, these students are paying a very high price for their mistake that was not all that eggregious.

You are frighteningly clueless. [/quote]

So they let academically challenged kids and those with behavioral problems in now? Sorry who's clueless? Look in the mirror. [/quote]

Public schools can't just throw kids out, it's legally very difficult, or next to impossible to do so. Read a public school's by-laws and charter. Chaminade let the kids leave school, they didn't throw them out (although they probably would've). It's like letting someone quit their job instead of being fired so it doesn't reflect poorly on their track record. This type of stuff happens all the time at all school districts. Let's stop acting like Chaminade is some superior school that produces superior students, it's a basic Catholic school, filled with 2,000 boys, they're going to make mistakes, they're going to have kids that get mediocre grades, and go to mediocre colleges. It's not the 2,000 finest boys from Long Island.

No school is filled with all valedcitorians and angels. Nobody is saying Chaminade = perfection or that kids there don't maky mistakes. They make plenty of them. I think the point is many parents feel the environment is conducive to their kids hopefully making fewer mistakes. That said, it is a superior school. There is no denying that from a rational standpoint. It is just not for everyone, and that is cool. If it is not for you and your son maybe just take the high road and refrain from bashing parents and kids who make different choices. When you start arguing that it is a mediocre school you just sound uninformed and bitter.

Let's change the topic and maybe stir a new pot. I am a Maryland parent of a committed 2017 with an older and a younger sibling. I have come to a few conclusions about MD lacrosse and the 2017 class.

1. I think lacrosse is declining in MD at the club level. The strong prep programs can develop players, but now clubs don't after U-13.
2. I think the 2014s were the last "great " MD HS class. MD and DMV areas are very good for 2015, but not great. It falls down and apart after that.
3. I think MD wise and nationally the 2017s are a weak class despite the novelty of this class's early recruiting notoriety.

The Crabs 2014s were possibly the greatest club team of all time. The 2015s Crabs are awesome and have company at or near the top (Dukes, Leading Edge, WCS, etc.). These 2015 teams are GREAT TEAMS with at least very good players at every position. There are no great 2016 teams and there is one great 2017 team (LI Turtles). The other first tier 2017 teams are very good, but none are great and only the Turtles deserves any comparative to the great 2014 and 2015 club teams.

Great players...I saw many 2014s and 2015s in MD / DMV where you walk away thinking wow...that is a can't miss future college star. I have not seen a single 2016 fit that bill and have seen only one 2017 kid in MD / DMV I would make that statement about.

The 2017 rankings and class notes emphasize how deep this class is on talent and especially at poles and goalies. The poles in this class are less than average and there is not a single goalie in this class who does not need to improve A LOT to see the field and do much anything in D1. This is a class where poles who can't stop a sneeze and goalies who are either horrible against high heat or are midgets get ranked because they committed, and that is a joke. This is a TERRIBLE goalie class. This class is top heavy with a few good FOGOs from LI, and I have seen three attackmen who get my eye as exceptional including the one kid I mentioned above. There are no elite middies in this class, but there are a ton of very good ones. Pick seven out of the 300 or so good ones and you will blend into the decent D1 recruiting classes at that position.

That is pretty harsh but I also think the causality is not that there is an ebb and flow of talents by year, and that the 2014s-15s were the outliers and the 2016s-17s are the down years. I think it is permanent at least here in the MD DMV. Clubs stop instructing and start prepping only game play or showcasing too early, and the players don't develop. With some exceptions, mostly the strong prep program kids, the committed 2016s and 2017s are the same players they were at U-15. And that won't cut it at a high level. I'd love to see more instructional / developmental emphasis in our local programs my oldest son had all the way through HS. That does not exist here anymore. This is where non-hotbed kids will step up. A kid in Florida can't afford to stop grinding away at fundamentals or can his program because harder to get noticed and can't take for granted like we do.

Not a superior school when compared to the best public schools by any means: 1) easy to get into Chaminade, 2) all boys so unrealistic environment to grow as a normal teenage boy, 3) students dont' get better grades, test scores, or gain admission to better colleges, 4) only people that feel the way you do are fellow parents that have kids at Chaminade - so you have what's called a superiority complex.

su·pe·ri·or·i·ty com·plex - noun
"an attitude of superiority that conceals actual feelings of inferiority and failure."

don't want to paint the entire institution with the same brush but sounds like this fits the above poster quite well

You are wrong about everything.....good luck to your son

When you say Chaminade is a superior school, what are you basing that on? I've never ever seen anything that backs up that assertion.

I think there are a few exceptional middies who deserve to be ranked high. But there are a lot of points here that are valid. There is no new Ben Rubeor or Paul Rabil or Mike Evans in this 2017 class. The players in the 2017 class are the most fundamentally unsound players as a class in a generation. Lots of great athletes and some programs do develop lacrosse IQ, but not many of them. How many prospect days and recruiting tournaments have you been to where all day long middies kept it on their stick for 20 seconds at the top of the box and eventually shot it from outside 10 yards from the alley? Goalies running out to mid court to clear the ball? Stupid. Poles clearing the ball and then it is all over and they need to take a 15 yard bounce shot. X attackmen who stop and go half a dozen times and give no look to skip the ball? Mikey Powell was the best X attack player I ever saw and I never saw him stop and go more than 3 times before spinning the ball or going to the cage. 2017s are a mess. Maybe it won't be a trend past this class.

Acceptance rate last few years has been around 25%.
SAT scores for graduating seniors math and reading generlly average around 1250 each year

Just give it a rest dude...for whatever reason, you hate Chaminade. You have made that clear. Maybe best to just change the topic.

try looking inferiority complex or Napoleon complex then go look in a mirror.

oh gosh, please.

You're nothing but a good ole fashioned bully!

Why is the poster a bully. It's the holdbacks that are bullies. They lack morals and character. Sad excuse for a human being. An example of what's wrong with society. Selfish, disrespectful behavior.

I think that you think too much. Your opinions are worthless

Think about that for a while.

Only flattering opinions of LI based 2017 players is of value. Ty Xanders is after all trying to build a business where that is the business plan.

The level of play of 2017s is far below 2014s and 2015s when they were sophs. Sorry, Dad.

Who are you that you feel qualified to rate 2017 against 2014 or 2015? Are you an espn analyst? How many games have you seen?

WHere does your son play and how old is he?

Please fill us in on how you deem yourself qualified to rate and entire 2017 group of kids.

I am like most BOTC posters, a parent who has spent seemingly every weekend for as long as I can remember sitting in a [lacrosse]'s sporting goods $39 lawn chair watching lacrosse. I have a HS 2014 class son at a D1 program and a D1 committed 2017 son, and a third son still at the middle school youth level. Both of my older sons played for a first tier club and at a top HS program. I am providing my opinion only, but after seeing a mind numbing volume of lacrosse those were my observations. Obviously A LOT of 2017 dads are going to disagree and call me an idiot. I have noticed a very distinct degradation of the quality and caliber of Maryland lacrosse in the past 2-3 years at the high school class by class progression.

Locally and nationally I think the 2014s were better than the 2015s and I believe the 2016s and 2017s as a class are materially weaker than the 2014s or 2015s. Just what I think and of course the parents of precious 2017 commits will attack. Answer me this though: do you think Ward Mellville's current team with some 2016s and 2017s is better than the 2013 team that was stacked with 2014s and 2015s? Do you think the 2016s and 2017s at St. Ants and Chaminade are the dominant classes at those schools in the past 5 years? Save for the single fantastic LI club team I named -- 2017 Turtles -- do you really think that there are elite LI Express or Team 91 teams that can come down to B'more and hang in the winner's bracket or win a Crabs tournament in the 2016 or 2017 classes? LI Express and Team 91 teams in those two school years come to MD to get piped by what I consider decent but not great MD club teams for those two classes. Team 91 can't beat regional 3d teams at that stupid fl$ in 3d thing either.

Maybe the decline in LI club play is not as distinct in LI as it is here in MD, but I see it on the field in the 2017 class every June, July and November. The performance of the non-2017 Turtle teams don't lie.

I am like most BOTC posters, a parent who has spent seemingly every weekend for as long as I can remember sitting in a [lacrosse]'s sporting goods $39 lawn chair watching lacrosse. I have a HS 2014 class son at a D1 program and a D1 committed 2017 son, and a third son still at the middle school youth level. Both of my older sons played for a first tier club and at a top HS program. I am providing my opinion only, but after seeing a mind numbing volume of lacrosse those were my observations. Obviously A LOT of 2017 dads are going to disagree and call me an idiot. I have noticed a very distinct degradation of the quality and caliber of Maryland lacrosse in the past 2-3 years at the high school class by class progression.

Locally and nationally I think the 2014s were better than the 2015s and I believe the 2016s and 2017s as a class are materially weaker than the 2014s or 2015s. Just what I think and of course the parents of precious 2017 commits will attack. Answer me this though: do you think Ward Mellville's current team with some 2016s and 2017s is better than the 2013 team that was stacked with 2014s and 2015s? Do you think the 2016s and 2017s at St. Ants and Chaminade are the dominant classes at those schools in the past 5 years? Save for the single fantastic LI club team I named -- 2017 Turtles -- do you really think that there are elite LI Express or Team 91 teams that can come down to B'more and hang in the winner's bracket or win a Crabs tournament in the 2016 or 2017 classes? LI Express and Team 91 teams in those two school years come to MD to get piped by what I consider decent but not great MD club teams for those two classes. Team 91 can't beat regional 3d teams at that stupid fl$ in 3d thing either.

Maybe the decline in LI club play is not as distinct in LI as it is here in MD, but I see it on the field in the 2017 class every June, July and November. The performance of the non-2017 Turtle teams don't lie.[/quote]

I do not disagree with the thought process. I will only say that 4 years ago on LI there was only really one main club - Express - while the others were just starting out. Now there are way too many clubs on LI - over 35 boys team (look to the right of this screen). The talent is so spread out that good kids are playing on crappy teams. If they cut that number down to 10 teams you would see a dramatic difference in team talent. If you made 3 allstar teams from LI I think you would see some pretty incredible talent. Express 2017 is a completely different team then it was 2 years ago - 4 kids went to Turtles, 2 kids are prep schools kids and are away, the committed kids don't always show up. 91 was never as good but has real good talent, Outlaws good talent, fl$ good talent. Now if you took those 4 teams and made 2, they would be able to compete with anyone (this doesn't even include Team LI, Sting, True Blue, Tomahawks, Pride, etc. who might be weaker but I'm sure that their best 3 players could play for anyone). The whole LI Lax scene is terrible. Every team is watered down. It is only going to get worse for LI as it seems a new organization is popping up each week...

As a parent/BOTC reader, there is nothing wrong when a poster brings up topics for discussion which includes facts the poster is presenting based on personal experience.

After reading to back and forth drivel about players, coaches, clubs etc. it is good to read an observation made which makes sense. No one is asking readers to agree with it or approve of it.

Poster was in no way rude, condescending, disparaging or finger pointing to anyone in particular. He never claimed to be a lax analyst or a Ty.

Take his post as: Food for thought.

If you disagree: pls post away. I for one would like to read what your assessment of the situation is and include your credentials.

Countless hours on the field watching games, going to showcases, meeting with college coaches and having sons playing at D1 schools are great credentials for a BOTC poster.

Every team is watered down. It is only going to get worse for LI as it seems a new organization is popping up each week... [/quote]

That is pretty telling. Certainly the best 40-50 kids per grade in LI are going to be talented players, but if they are spliced out too much that level of play does not show up where it matters: on the practice field. I saw my oldest son get better in practice with his strong 2014 MD club team every single season. I never thought on the surface that so many clubs in MD like in LI, and of course the not so welcomed bloated rosters = dumbing the game and level of play down. Not to sound elitist, but if you don't have the opportunity to get reps against strong players you will never become one or remain one. That is a real problem now for kids in the 2016s, 17s and onwards classes.

There was some early planning and talk here in MD about going off and having a few well heeled parents write a nice check to a high level coach to pull together a no-nonsense 18 man 2017 team with only the very best MD players...a team that could give the Turtles a tilt of a game. But then it got predictably disturbed by everyone's home club agendas and politics. Some parents, myself included, feared retribution against younger siblings in those same club programs for having a committed kid bolt. The easy way out is to tell the club your kid is going to play for his school in the fall and in summer, which we did. That goes over badly but reduces the likelihood of reprisals by the vicious club owners. But that recipe is a bad one too. Does everyone in MD need to go to a $30K-40K a year prep school with a strong lacrosse program to keep developing and be able to practice with other strong players? That is not a great recipe for those who can't afford it and is a tortured decision for the families that leap into those money pits. One fine mess.

I think the "too many teams" issue is certainly not unique to Long Island. It exist in Westchester/Fairfield as well and probably in the other "Hot Beds" as well. I am not sure how to control the problem other than you need to be an educated consumer. I happen to agree with the post the focus now seems to be on "winning" tournaments as opposed to developing players. If you are from LI and go to a tournament in Baltimore, you probably spend 12 hours driving to play probably 3 productive hours of lacrosse. Don't you think the kids would be better off having 2 productive 2 hour practices a day with another LOCAL team and then scrimmaging?

I do not disagree with the thought process. I will only say that 4 years ago on LI there was only really one main club - Express - while the others were just starting out. Now there are way too many clubs on LI - over 35 boys teams (look to the right of this screen). The talent is so spread out that good kids are playing on crappy teams. If they cut that number down to 10 teams you would see a dramatic difference in team talent. If you made 3 all-star teams from LI I think you would see some pretty incredible talent. For example, Express 2017 is a completely different team then it was 2 years ago - 4 kids went to Turtles, 2 kids are prep schools kids and are away, the committed kids don't always show up. 91 was never as good but has real good talent (and lower grades probably the best now), Outlaws good talent, fl$ good talent. Now if you took those 4 teams and made 2, they would be able to compete with anyone (this doesn't even include Team LI, Sting, True Blue, Tomahawks, Pride, etc. who might be weaker but I'm sure that their best 2 players could play for anyone). The whole LI Lax scene is terrible. Every team is watered down. It is only going to get worse for LI as it seems a new organization is popping up each week...

It also comes down to the needs to get noticed, hence the drive to MD to play our club and others. If course the kids would be better players having a higher density of training and local scrimmaging. Dom, Petro and all say "doin' my job to find the best players at these tournaments, and have to keep doin' it earlier and earlier to keep my program up at the top" so we all do this thing. I privately wonder when it is going to occur to the D1 coaches that they are watching a lower and lower caliber of play each season with this class and the ones after it. Programs like UVa and JHU will do well so long as they grab the best RELATIVE SCALE players in the 2017 class. My point is that kids after that 2014 and 2015 HS class year era just seem to be on a regressive scale. The landscape in lacrosse keeps changing fast as many IL Preps and other gurus like to note. When will the landscape move to adjust back to truly ELITE club play again? I miss seeing the quality and feel bad that my 2017 and his younger brother won't experience it. It just isn't enough to play a couple of 2 day smash and grabs like Showtime or JR to get high level play back into the blood of these boys.

I think it will stop when "early committing" stops. Early recruiting will continue - but if kids commit early - say 14-15 year olds, and the other coaches stop recruiting them, this won't change. If coached keep recruiting kids to they sign a Letter of Intent or receive likely letters, early decision admits, then both the student athlete will need to maintain level of play and keep improving and the coaches will keep recruiting. Clubs can't advertise they have five 14 year olds committed to D1 colleges until fall of their senior year of high school.

The club teams are catering to a younger crowd as well. 2nd through 6th grade kids do not need to go to tournaments every weekend in the summer. They need to develop skills. But if you are not on ELITE CLUB TEAM by the time you're 9 kiss your lacrosse career goodbye.

I lay the blame at the feet of the clubs. Bottom line is the clubs subsist off commit lists on their web pages. If all verbals were non public until summer before senior year or when NLIs are signed, you'd see much fewer early verbals. It is not the scarcity of spots. Some Patriot and other conference schools are just getting going on 2017s now. It is the public validation for the clubs and parents/kids more than the coaches pushing an envelope. When Starsia says he loathes early recruiting I believe him. I also believe him when he next says he cannot be a spectator watching his ACC and Big 10 rivals fill their classes before him.

If you are that good as a ninth grader - what is the rush to commit?

There are a couple of problems with your theories. Here's the first one, the talent in my opinion is growing in leaps and bounds all over the country. My older son was a 2014. When he started playing travel lax in 7th grade there were 3 or 4 travel teams on LI. All the best players played on those teams. Their second and third team would beat many of todays "A" teams. Not because of lack of talent or skill training, but because of the watering down of the teams. There are 20+ clubs on LI that claim to have an A team. There is much more talent today just too many teams. Kids who are really good players won't play on the second attack line at club ABC they will go to club XYZ and be the starter.
Lastly, I don't know about MD, but there are more options today to get intense skill training than there ever was back when my 2014 was playing, and no, it was not happening at the youth level leagues. So I disagree with you, more talent today just dispersed like never before.

I think you all have it wrong. THe growth of the game is a good thing and will eventually make the game and the players better.

Think of football and baseball and basketball. Did the players get worse as the game grew? I think not. As more people pay the game gets more competitive.

One or two people see a game that isn't as skilled as they remember it being two years ago? I think time to recognize that your good old days are not coming back and the growth of the game will continue south and west as football parents search for safer alternatives. Over time it means that the best athletes, whether or not they are from hot beds, will continue to get recruited at the highest levels.

If and when it becomes a money sport at college level (10, 20 years?) D-1 schools will be offering full rides and then best athletes have choices.

Early recruiting is not too blame, it is a natural progression. At some point (assuming the NCAA doesn't change--and I think that is 50-50 at best) early recruiting becomes meaningless as kids commit and de-commit in greater numbers.

What kid wouldn't de-commit from say MD to go to Duke or Ivy? It will happen as the search for the best athletes continues...MD is a great school, so no disrespect

Growth and change are necessary and we are not going back to the good old days with one club or two clubs on LI and one or two in MD.

So, I completely disagree with the premise that because there are more clubs, the skill level will decline. Perhaps there is an adjustment period, but as more kids play, the skill level will grow as the better athletes pick up sticks.

It is a game that requires all the same physical attributes of all sports. Speed, strength, hand/eye and size...

Those physical attributes are the reason for the rising practice of re-classing.

I would counter argue that in fact clubs that used to be great, just aren't as great as they once appeared because everyone else is getting better, not that MD is getting worse, but Philly teams, Texas teams and CA teams and colorado teams are now getting more athletes and more competitive...

What would you take as your starting middie? A 6 ft 3 freak athlete that has played for 1 year, or a 5-10 lesser athlete playing for 10 years.

You don't get it for some reason. Scholarship dollars are severely limited for Lax. A fully funded program has just 12.5 scholarships among 40-50 players.

Then you have patriot league that someone mentioned above. At those schools even less scholarship $ and no merit/academic $. Schools in this league-Lafayette, Holy Cross, Colgate...average $60k per year.

So that 9th grade early commit, why? Because they are giving him more scholarship $. It is really simple, commit early and get more dough. If you are great and you want to wait, good luck, maybe there will be a few dollars left, but if your family needs the money and will not get need based $ (most people reading this will not get need based financial $) you take the money and run.

This is not magic, it is all about how much you can or will pay, or how much you will let your kid borrow for school.

For those that can afford to pay the $60k per year, I completely agree, don't bother committing unless that lax offer comes with a coaches handshake that he can get you into his IVY because his team's AI is high...

It boggles my mind that everyone hasn't figured out the game....

So you think an early commit brings more money? An early commit is a verbal commit. The player still has to carry a decent GPA and do well on their SAT/ ACT's.

Early commit doesn't bring more money to potential player.

If athletic money is involved, it is not until the recruit signs his letter of intent in fall of senior year that it becomes a done deal. A lot can happen from fall freshman year to fall senior year. Coaches change, programs are added, kids don't develop as expected, existing college players are offered the scholarship $$$ earmarked for the recruit.

The comments were mainly aimed at the degradation of the level of play in Maryland, and, more broadly that the 2016s and 2017s are lesser caliber classes than the two classes ahead of them. I stand by that. I do also believe the game blowing up in non-hot beds will have a mind blowing impact going ahead...agree completely. In places like Texas, Florida, Georgia we are getting the 6'3 freak athletes coming in and taking spots from the MD and LI lacrosse blue blood kids. I concur and like it, but I am not about to heap praise on the players from those areas being technically strong players yet and I fear some of the same "let's tune out on practice reps and focus on that video and showcase move for exposure" crap that seems to take over 100% of the focus for clubs and for 7th and 8th graders locally here in MD. Greatness is in the boring and the monotony. Steele Stanwick played wall ball by himself in a garage 2 hours a day every day. You think these kids are doing that? I sneer more that a little to hear of "there's more specialized training" now. Yes, there is and yes it has a place as a SUPPLEMENT in a player's development like a prior poster noted. But really, middie dodge clinics? Gee, isn't that the type of repeat reps and instruction you would expect your sons to be getting in PRACTICE with their CLUBS rather than in a $85 an hour private lesson or clinic? Face off lessons, goalie lessons, etc. Helpful, yes, but a cop out to rely on.

Wrong-If a better player comes along after your frosh superstar does his verbal commit they will change the amount that was originally offered your superstar........ I know....you have some iron clad agreement with the coach.......again....wrong. Until that NLI is signed things can change and do change.

Absolutely true… know of a former HS AA who had his $ and spot given away by the school he committed early to. Luckily he was a good student and ended up at a better lax and academic school where he led team in goal scoring for multiple years while also going pro. If his money wasn't safe idk whose is.