BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums NORTHEAST LACROSSE BOTC MAIN FORUM (LI, CT, WC) Boys 2017 Fall 2013/Summer 2014

Dear Friend : My family has already done the academic/Ivy chase - twice. Both of my children (boy/girl) were academic valedictorians, sports team captains, regional athletes, All-State band participants, every honor society under the sun, and recruited by various schools. Would you like to talk about my placement career as a coach? Again, this is not about me - or my family - but if you want to challenge our advice, I thought it only fair to tell you from whence this information flows.

Expecting a 2017 graduate to already have "guaranteed admission" with 0.25-0.40 scholarships with a 3.5 GPA in non-honors classes and no SAT/ACT performance numbers is following a yellow-brick road to no where.

Attending an academic institution where your student-athlete simply cannot keep pace is a parental nightmare (wait until you get that call) and happens to be one of the top reasons why you see can't miss Long Island superstars attending institutions a thousand miles and eight hours from home as freshmen and returning to a local outfit within a short time as a sophomore.

Now, if you would like to ask a constructive question, please feel free.

Expecting a 3.5 GPA in non-honors classes to now achieve a 90th percentile SAT performance is unrealistic. The Mathematics section alone, without Algebra II/Trigonometry mastery, will fall well short of the 650 score which immediately takes you out of the 90th-percentile.

There is a common misconception that rank is not revealed. With your child's transcript, your High School will send a school profile document. If you have not seen it, you should request a copy. That document will disclose the grades associated with each decile in the graduating class along with the top level courses offered in each academic discipline. Assuming that your child's rank - or at least decile - cannot be determined demonstrates a clear lack of understand of the college admissions process.

Regis specifically deals with this in their academic profile.

That would be incorrect.

Advanced placement is consistent across most High Schools - the actual end-game performance on the exam measures the effectiveness.

Focus on academics, the major selection process, and location/alumni network. All three of these will have longer lasting effects on your child over and above the impact of lacrosse.

Completely disagree. Grades are not dispositive of SAT performance. A kid playing on three teams who did not elect honors or who opted out is going to score the same, give or take a percentile.

And the competitive Catholic schools like Chaminade and Regis that do not technically offer AP have classes that are in fact harder than most similar AP courses in the publics. I know because I have asked and have seen the curriculum.

In my high school the two kids who scored over 1450 on the SATs both had high 80s in non-honors. Our valedictorian had a 1300. Grades "may" be indicative but they are not determinative of SAT performance.

you should write for the inquirer. try to get some facts straight before letting your emotions send something like this

Dear Friend : My family has already done the academic/Ivy chase - twice. Both of my children (boy/girl) were academic valedictorians, sports team captains, regional athletes, All-State band participants, every honor society under the sun, and recruited by various schools. Would you like to talk about my placement career as a coach? Again, this is not about me - or my family - but if you want to challenge our advice, I thought it only fair to tell you from whence this information flows.

Expecting a 2017 graduate to already have "guaranteed admission" with 0.25-0.40 scholarships with a 3.5 GPA in non-honors classes and no SAT/ACT performance numbers is following a yellow-brick road to no where.

Attending an academic institution where your student-athlete simply cannot keep pace is a parental nightmare (wait until you get that call) and happens to be one of the top reasons why you see can't miss Long Island superstars attending institutions a thousand miles and eight hours from home as freshmen and returning to a local outfit within a short time as a sophomore.

Now, if you would like to ask a constructive question, please feel free.

Let's not deal with anecdotal information, let's deal with specifics. An honor student will take Algebra in eighth grade, Geometry in ninth grade, Algebra II in tenth grade, Precalculus in eleventh grade, and Calculus AB or BC in their senior year.

A non-honors student might not start Algebra until ninth grade and might be placed in an 18-month or 24-month program before sitting for the Regents. That places this same student in Geometry in tenth grade.

While the SAT Math section only requires Algebra and Geometry, which student would you say is better prepared as a junior to sit for the PSAT/PLAN and SAT/ACT exams?

Coming back to the 90th-percentile question, a Math score of 680 is needed to meet that requirement. Verbal scores require a 660 and writing requires a 650. Bottom line is that a 90th-percentile performance is 1440/2090.

Unless you have sat for the Calculus BC course, how can you make that assessment?

Let me ask you a different question : Do you know why specific schools do not offer an AP course? (Hint : There is a reason why some schools are not permitted to offer AP courses. BOTC will let you do that research and there is a reason.)

Individual cases in isolation cannot be used to prove or disprove the point. For example, consider the following question : What were the scores of all non-honors students with an average in the high 80s? We strongly suspect you are highlighting statistical outliers and concluding that such is expected performance.

so make the corrections and put up the credentials...they must be somewhere for review

well, they did pick a kid who by definition, has no other credentials to his name other than his club team where he a was marginal second line at best and a so-so player on the Brine stacked Long Island North team again riding the coat tails of other really good players on that team

was not at 3D...did not make JR...did not go to Philly Showcase

and I am not even sure if he was at a UNC prospect camp (it would be intersting to know)

and is very well know to be very shy from physical contact and has no prob riding the bench.

congrats to him for getting that far under the proverbial radar but there must be much more to the $tory...

good luck with the big boys at UNC...

so make the corrections and put up the credentials...they must be somewhere for review

I am not relying on anecdotal information: I've spoken to two departmental heads at Regis, and to Chaminade alumni "recruiters", and have asked the question "why no AP classes?" They both had the same answer: every class is higher than AP level, so we don't have to. They went further and said they simply cover too much information already and to add more to meet the AP requirements is too restrictive and not realistic. (That's more investigation than a Google search.)

And I know enough about standardized tests to NOT draw conclusions based on either end of the bell curve. Smarter kids are generally better students, get better grades and score higher on the SAT.

But my original point remains: you can't say a kid with a 3.5 in non-honors is not in the running for an ivy, ND, Duke, G-town etc. You have no idea what the relative competition is in that high school, what courses are harder or easier, or what teachers grade higher or lower. Besides, in a system that adds points to honors classes, a higher GPA is a just that -- a higher GPA. In our school district honors/AP classes get an additional 4% added to the raw grade. So, if you're a 3.3 raw in all honors, that gets upped to about a 3.5. If you're a 2.9 or 3.7 in non-honors, you're a 2.9 or 3.7.

I say a 3.5 puts one within range (honors or non-honors), and the SAT gets you in the door (or not). And I'll take it one step further ... a 3.5 in non-honors is not an indicator of future average or poor SAT performance.

My advice to the parents of this boy ... tell him to have a great four years at Georgetown! It is the best school of the ones mentioned, and a no-brainer unless playing for a lax national championship is more important than the degree (which I think would be a mistake). Good luck and congratulations.

Thank you, two points I am considering are: Georgetown is the best of the choices, but the loans will be much larger and there is very little to no academic support. Some of the other schools such as PSU are offering more money and full support in terms of scheduling, mandatory study halls and tutoring when ever the kid requests it. Still a top school(37) with a strong alumni, Same at Maryland (62) but they have a lower ranking academically, and are offering less money.

Congratulations to your son! Out of curiosity, are there any time limits on these offers?

Thank you, two points I am considering are: Georgetown is the best of the choices, but the loans will be much larger and there is very little to no academic support. Some of the other schools such as PSU are offering more money and full support in terms of scheduling, mandatory study halls and tutoring when ever the kid requests it. Still a top school(37) with a strong alumni, Same at Maryland (62) but they have a lower ranking academically, and are offering less money.

This seems like it's all your decision - "I am considering...". Does your son have any say in the matter or are you controling the whole process and he'll take what you decide for him? What school does HE WANT to go to? Trust me, if you make this deceision for him it will probably not work out. It doesn't sound like he can make a bad decision so let him make the final call.

Congratulations to your son- what a great bunch of schools to have to chose from!

May I ask, what do you think made the difference for your son? Was it his club team, school team, a specific coach going to bat for him, show cases, etc? We have a year or two ahead of us, but am already overwhelmed by all that the kids can do/should do. It seems like your son is a hard worker, both on the field and off. You must be very proud of his efforts.

I am a visiting lecturer in the Economics department at Georgetown. I have seen a lot of student athletes pass through and can appreciate these factors as a parent of a lacrosse player in this 2017 class:

1. Student athletes manage a course load on top of approximately 25 hours a week drained for sports. Thankfully most athletes are good time managers.
2. Assuming a student athlete manages time well, there is not a lot of it left. If that time is used to study and prepare, but difficulty remains to make grades it makes a solution nearly impossible. I believe you are greatly overestimating the value of academic support/tutoring. Yes, it is going to be there. But will it help cure the problem? If yes, then barely at best. I have been approached by many decorated student athletes from Georgetown and other strong schools on the D1 lacrosse circuit for job search help. There is nothing anyone can do to alter a bad outcome: if you graduate from a Georgetown or a UVa with a "staying eligible" GPA it cheapens out what was otherwise a great value to have a degree from a strong school.
3. If you can accept that tutoring or support are not the magic cures, then what I would suggest is commit that your kid takes 5 years for college or goes to school each Summer to finish in 4. Right there with that comment I blow up your economic spread in that a parent will pay or the student athlete will incur debt for an additional year of college at full price.

You want your son to have a degree that carries him well in life. The 2.5 student athlete club is not going to carry a kid far...even with a degree from a great school.

I am a visiting lecturer in the Economics department at Georgetown. I have seen a lot of student athletes pass through and can appreciate these factors as a parent of a lacrosse player in this 2017 class:

1. Student athletes manage a course load on top of approximately 25 hours a week drained for sports. Thankfully most athletes are good time managers.
2. Assuming a student athlete manages time well, there is not a lot of it left. If that time is used to study and prepare, but difficulty remains to make grades it makes a solution nearly impossible. I believe you are greatly overestimating the value of academic support/tutoring. Yes, it is going to be there. But will it help cure the problem? If yes, then barely at best. I have been approached by many decorated student athletes from Georgetown and other strong schools on the D1 lacrosse circuit for job search help. There is nothing anyone can do to alter a bad outcome: if you graduate from a Georgetown or a UVa with a "staying eligible" GPA it cheapens out what was otherwise a great value to have a degree from a strong school.
3. If you can accept that tutoring or support are not the magic cures, then what I would suggest is commit that your kid takes 5 years for college or goes to school each Summer to finish in 4. Right there with that comment I blow up your economic spread in that a parent will pay or the student athlete will incur debt for an additional year of college at full price.

You want your son to have a degree that carries him well in life. The 2.5 student athlete club is not going to carry a kid far...even with a degree from a great school.

Exactly the reason why I don't think Georgetown is the right place for my son! Plus we were told by Coach Warne that they don't offer much academic support. The kids that attend are expected to be capable on their own of managing the academic load. Thank you for confirming my thoughts!

I am a visiting lecturer in the Economics department at Georgetown. I have seen a lot of student athletes pass through and can appreciate these factors as a parent of a lacrosse player in this 2017 class:

1. Student athletes manage a course load on top of approximately 25 hours a week drained for sports. Thankfully most athletes are good time managers.
2. Assuming a student athlete manages time well, there is not a lot of it left. If that time is used to study and prepare, but difficulty remains to make grades it makes a solution nearly impossible. I believe you are greatly overestimating the value of academic support/tutoring. Yes, it is going to be there. But will it help cure the problem? If yes, then barely at best. I have been approached by many decorated student athletes from Georgetown and other strong schools on the D1 lacrosse circuit for job search help. There is nothing anyone can do to alter a bad outcome: if you graduate from a Georgetown or a UVa with a "staying eligible" GPA it cheapens out what was otherwise a great value to have a degree from a strong school.
3. If you can accept that tutoring or support are not the magic cures, then what I would suggest is commit that your kid takes 5 years for college or goes to school each Summer to finish in 4. Right there with that comment I blow up your economic spread in that a parent will pay or the student athlete will incur debt for an additional year of college at full price.

You want your son to have a degree that carries him well in life. The 2.5 student athlete club is not going to carry a kid far...even with a degree from a great school.

Exactly the reason why I don't think Georgetown is the right place for my son! Plus we were told by Coach Warne that they don't offer much academic support. The kids that attend are expected to be capable on their own of managing the academic load. Thank you for confirming my thoughts!

Why are you doing this in such a public forumn? While I am sure others' perspectives are helpful, I would be concerned with the anonymity of my son. Your call, not mine but people can probably figure out who you are based on your posts (school opportunities, no club last summer, did well at Philly Showcase, etc.). Again, none of my business, but if you are looking for advice there are much quieter ways to do it.

Why are you doing this in such a public forumn? While I am sure others' perspectives are helpful, I would be concerned with the anonymity of my son. Your call, not mine but people can probably figure out who you are based on your posts (school opportunities, no club last summer, did well at Philly Showcase, etc.). Again, none of my business, but if you are looking for advice there are much quieter ways to do it.

I am a visiting lecturer in the Economics department at Georgetown. I have seen a lot of student athletes pass through and can appreciate these factors as a parent of a lacrosse player in this 2017 class:

1. Student athletes manage a course load on top of approximately 25 hours a week drained for sports. Thankfully most athletes are good time managers.
2. Assuming a student athlete manages time well, there is not a lot of it left. If that time is used to study and prepare, but difficulty remains to make grades it makes a solution nearly impossible. I believe you are greatly overestimating the value of academic support/tutoring. Yes, it is going to be there. But will it help cure the problem? If yes, then barely at best. I have been approached by many decorated student athletes from Georgetown and other strong schools on the D1 lacrosse circuit for job search help. There is nothing anyone can do to alter a bad outcome: if you graduate from a Georgetown or a UVa with a "staying eligible" GPA it cheapens out what was otherwise a great value to have a degree from a strong school.
3. If you can accept that tutoring or support are not the magic cures, then what I would suggest is commit that your kid takes 5 years for college or goes to school each Summer to finish in 4. Right there with that comment I blow up your economic spread in that a parent will pay or the student athlete will incur debt for an additional year of college at full price.

You want your son to have a degree that carries him well in life. The 2.5 student athlete club is not going to carry a kid far...even with a degree from a great school.

My son is not a hard worker at school. He does what he needs to do, but does not "love" school. He loves lacrosse. It has made him a better person, the values he has learned will hopefully translate into success in life (hopefully). He plays for a good school and has been doing varsity tournaments since last summer, also Philly showcase. This put him on radar. Did club many years but not last summer. We are proud of him, and wish the best to everyone else going though this process.

Sir you speak with such authority... Is that the garbage they teach in $60,000 a year schools now??? "The 2.5 student athlete club is not going to carry a kid far..." Wow, that is such an ignorant statement!!!

Georgetown is a great school, that being said there is absolutely no way to monetize the achievement of a 3.5 verse that of 2.5 gpa.

In the long run, I assure you it will have next to zero impact on the student 5 years down the line.

I dare say that the work ethic of a student athlete combined with the networking opportunities far, far out way the 3.5 gpa a non athlete achieves.

Be very certain of this fact, where one goes to school has very little impact in the business world beyond maybe, the Ivies.

Getting into one of these schools is in no way some ticket to prosperity. Let's face it, 95% of the drivel spewed at these schools today is useless. (as proven by your ignorant statement )

To the poster above, let your son go to the school he "LIKES" the most. Everything else will fall into place. Advise your son to work as hard as he can, but enjoy himself too. Please also guide him that just because he went to G'town or Harvard, the real world doesn't really care all that much.

You need to prepare your son that to get anywhere in life he will have work harder than he ever has before. I further assure you that right next to him in the real world is the kid who went to no where U and is willing to out work him all day everyday. The boss won't care where the degree is from, its about performance....

Kind of like the lacrosse field, imagine that! Just so we're clear, I'm a visiting professor (CEO)from the real world. Corporate America is starved for the old school values of work ethic, determination, and team work. Kids that think the world owes them something because of the school they went to will be eaten alive.

Visiting lecturer here again. I was only trying to be helpful and share my insights. Take all of it with pounds of sand. I am not an authority and can only share my optic. Yes, it is true that where you went to school and what your GPA was does fall away in relevance over time. By the way, I am not an academic, I am a business owner who is a visiting lecturer only.

I have seen Georgetown grads with All-America decorations struggle to get a first job. Some of that is a tough economy and some of it remains that they were 2.4-2.7 students competing with better students for a first job. Few employers care that you were All-America in a sport much beyond seeing that as a work ethic plus. They care about an academic record. Getting a first job with a weak college record is acutely difficult today I think and have seen. Your disagreement is noted, and I see your point on the 5+ years out scenarios. I am talking about kids having the best first job opportunity.

Have you had a child in their sophomore, junior or senior year of college compete for on-campus interviews or internships? When you present a resume to a potenial employer, do you think a 2.5 or 3.5 GPA will be more likely to get a look? Do you believe that a recruiter attending a Georgetown Open House will be looking for an athlete's background?

Establishing a hard dollar value - no. Establishing that there would be more opportunities for interviews - yes.

Do you have students that have entered the job or graduate school markets in the last five years? There is a residual impact as the same opportunities will simply not present themselves.

Just as you cannot monetize the value of a 2.5 over a 3.5 GPA, you cannot assert that a sports-influenced 2.5 demonstrates a stronger work ethic. As an interviewer, you are looking for skill sets in an entry level candidate and the competition is fierce.

Incorrect. You are ignoring the pull that an alumni network has in the region surrounding an institution. For example, attending UVa hoping to land a New [lacrosse] based internship is not a solid strategy.

If what you say is true, the development of an 18 year old High School senior with and without college would follow the same trajectory. Clearly, that is not the case.

We disagree.

Agreed with the work ethic, but Nowhere U's student is less likely to get the same opportunity.

A credible CEO would not typically refer to another's opinion as garbage, much less associating a price tag with it. If you are a CEO from the "real world", perhaps you should be more concerned about your corporation than pontificating here on BOTC?

Sir you speak with such authority... Is that the garbage they teach in $60,000 a year schools now??? "The 2.5 student athlete club is not going to carry a kid far..." Wow, that is such an ignorant statement!!! Georgetown is a great school, that being said there is absolutely no way to monetize the achievement of a 3.5 verse that of 2.5 gpa. In the long run, I assure you it will have next to zero impact on the student 5 years down the line. I dare say that the work ethic of a student athlete combined with the networking opportunities far, far out way the 3.5 gpa a non athlete achieves. Be very certain of this fact, where one goes to school has very little impact in the business world beyond maybe, the Ivies. Getting into one of these schools is in no way some ticket to prosperity. Let's face it, 95% of the drivel spewed at these schools today is useless. (as proven by your ignorant statement ) To the poster above, let your son go to the school he "LIKES" the most. Everything else will fall into place. Advise your son to work as hard as he can, but enjoy himself too. Please also guide him that just because he went to G'town or Harvard, the real world doesn't really care all that much. You need to prepare your son that to get anywhere in life he will have work harder than he ever has before. I further assure you that right next to him in the real world is the kid who went to no where U and is willing to out work him all day everyday. The boss won't care where the degree is from, its about performance.... Kind of like the lacrosse field, imagine that! Just so we're clear, I'm a visiting professor (CEO)from the real world. Corporate America is starved for the old school values of work ethic, determination, and team work. Kids that think the world owes them something because of the school they went to will be eaten alive.

Sir you speak with such authority... Is that the garbage they teach in $60,000 a year schools now??? "The 2.5 student athlete club is not going to carry a kid far..." Wow, that is such an ignorant statement!!! Georgetown is a great school, that being said there is absolutely no way to monetize the achievement of a 3.5 verse that of 2.5 gpa. In the long run, I assure you it will have next to zero impact on the student 5 years down the line. I dare say that the work ethic of a student athlete combined with the networking opportunities far, far out way the 3.5 gpa a non athlete achieves. Be very certain of this fact, where one goes to school has very little impact in the business world beyond maybe, the Ivies. Getting into one of these schools is in no way some ticket to prosperity. Let's face it, 95% of the drivel spewed at these schools today is useless. (as proven by your ignorant statement ) To the poster above, let your son go to the school he "LIKES" the most. Everything else will fall into place. Advise your son to work as hard as he can, but enjoy himself too. Please also guide him that just because he went to G'town or Harvard, the real world doesn't really care all that much. You need to prepare your son that to get anywhere in life he will have work harder than he ever has before. I further assure you that right next to him in the real world is the kid who went to no where U and is willing to out work him all day everyday. The boss won't care where the degree is from, its about performance.... Kind of like the lacrosse field, imagine that! Just so we're clear, I'm a visiting professor (CEO)from the real world. Corporate America is starved for the old school values of work ethic, determination, and team work. Kids that think the world owes them something because of the school they went to will be eaten alive.

"Cage, the assertion that a student who gets a 2.5 will not go far in life is "garbage". To say that to a parent or a kid is not only garbage, it is down right irresponsible."

I did not see that statement in Cage's post. Looks like you are making an assumption based on his statements.

Get real Mr. CEO. That 2.5 in today's world is useless. You'll never get the opportunity to show what a "hard worker" you are because there are thousands of 3.5's and up that worked their tails off and are smarter. Your first impression with a 2.5 means your either not too smart or lazy.

Most lacrosse players are not computer science majors. They want to be bankers consultants etc... Most won't look at you unless you have a 3.5. In some cases you make sneak by with a 3.3 or 3.4 if you're from a Top 5 school. GPA matters!