BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums NORTHEAST LACROSSE BOTC MAIN FORUM (LI, CT, WC) Boys 2017 Fall 2013/Summer 2014

Guy...for the last time...YOU ARE WRONG. Just accept it. Guys have been trying to let you down nicely. For the record, all,of the schools on your "list" have been visited "unofficially" by many 2017's.

And they (your "non-actively recruiting" schools)have asked for and reviewed and approved first quarter transcripts. Ask me how I know....this includes Duke and "others"

And if you are just not in the loop with all of the other "activities" such as "unofficial visits" that are going on (and we've been privileged to attend ) with your dispelled list of "non-actively recruiting" schools; then there is clearly a reason for that...just as there was a reason that there was no direct JR at your mail box. The direct invites went DIRECTLY to the players...hence the words "direct invite."

The only event your club coach had any say in was maverick. JR was strictly based on their review and observations so don't hold your breath. Go to another 3D and take your chances but stop with the self delusions already. You truly are sadly misinformed.

Parent of a 2017 that got a direct invite to JR on Nov 2nd. My son did not attend the rising freshman camp last summer by our conscience decision and choice. Did not attend a "play in" this year or last. Got a direct invite personally. NOT thru his club. It doesn't work that way. If your good enough, they will find you. The coach or director of your"club" is not nearly as important as they want you to think! Most have a vested financial interest in spreading this "myth".

Old saying in coaching... Recruit the kid, tolerate the parent.

When I was coaching youth sports, we used to target specific players for the team. The motto was "Recruit the Parent, Play the Kid". Tolerate the parent might be the longer term outcome.

What all you people don't get, is that YOU really don't have much to do with it. Just going to JR or Showtime WILL NOT get your kid recruited. There are plenty of committed kids in the 2016 year that neither attended JR or Showtime. Or even played on an elite travel team. If your son is good, the coaches WILL find him. The problem as I see it, is most of the boys are ok players, but not good enough to get recruited. Unfortunately, that will not change for most of them, and will just lead to more anxiety and frustration from overzealous parents. This will stress out both yourself, as well as your son. STOP IT! Let the process unfold and back off!

I agree with some of what you said. You absolutely do not have to go to JR or Maverik to get recruited, and despite the flaws those are still pretty good vetting events for coaches. If they weren't you wouldn't see just about every DI school sitting on the sidelines baking in the sun.

I don't necessarily buy the argument that if you are good they will find you. I have too much personal experience of kids who have wound up at top schools, or who are going to top schools who wouldn't be there without divine intervention. There are just too many kids playing good lacrosse at too many events, and lacrosse unlike football doesn't have the resources to dedicate towards recruiting so a lot of it does matter on your club.

Not that you have to play for the Express or Crabs to get recruited, but if you are playing on a mediocre team fewer coaches watch your game, and if you are surrounded by less skilled players it is often very difficult to showcase your skills.

When you watch coaches on a sideline most of them are not looking for the diamond in the rough. For the most part they are going to look at kids who have been recommended or who either the player or parent has sent loads of emails, updates, and videos, and the coach saw enough potential to go see the kid play in person.

Can this happen independent of a club coach, absolutely, but playing on a recognizable club team give you enough steer creed in many instances to at least warrant a look from a coach at a tournament or showcase.

The one point I totally agree with you on is be patient. If not this process will drive you crazy. It happens on different timelines for different people.

As the parent of a true LI 2018 (born summer 2000, so he's even young for 2018), I can tell you every major LI club whether it is private or town based has their share of hold-backs, at every grade level. Many 2017s running about on this strange island sporting very early 1998 b-days. Joe D's amphibians might be an exception, but the emphasis there is on "might be".

You are incorrect about the ivies and Notre Dame. They are actively recruiting 2017s and they are having unofficial visits. That is a fact.

Foolish statement

Agree. The problem is that most people on this site just don't want to understand certain things about the process. It is very clear which posts come from informed, been there, parents and should be viewed as a learning process. But instead there is bashing. Believe what you want, but the truth is there are different level schools. There's the ivy, Duke and ND, then there's the rest. That's a fact. These top schools are recruiting 2017's as we speak. And these kids ARE the best of the best. The role/reputation of the travel coach is important as all calls go through him and the Hs coach. As far as $$ goes, there is very little. Maybe 1/4 a yr, IVys none. The value is not the $$, it's the golden ticket to one of the top tier institutions.

13 years ago I would Never have thought a child born in the summer would be considered young for their grade. This is crazy talk

You all will see. Those going to JR and Showtime, watch out! If you don't "shine" and get written up IL, nobody will be after you. I saw it with my son last summer. "political" kids from the best travel teams couldn't cut it. Others stood out and were actively recruited. If you decide to pay all the $$, you better be ready to be the best, or else you just look like you don't measure up with the top kids. Some kids might be better off just excelling on their varsity team

Not so sure I'd call it foolish as much as I'd consider "he who hesitates loses". The process for 2017's is active and as reluctant as we may or should be about jumping into the fray; if one doesn't, then possible opportunities may be lost.

Certainly there are the prodigies out there that are on every coach's radar, but for those not causing a blip on the screen, even if they are very good, chances are they might be overlooked.

So it's get in the game and play it just as the coaches have reticently done in order to not lose opportunities on gaining access to potential players for their programs.

It's definable as mind numbing at this point, I assure you.

For us it was big bucks to a top 40 school. Little debt for my son, great lax and ed.

[/quote]
The value is not the $$, it's the golden ticket to one of the top tier institutions. [/quote]

And there is the final word on this topic. Nothing more need be said.

I come at this with a different perspective. My son is 2017 who really should be a 2018. He was born late November 1999 and he made the cutoff by a few days. I chose to send him and up to this point it has never been an issue. He is a good player and has competed very well at the "A" Long Island level for a long time and he plays for one of the strongest school programs in the country. However, when it comes to the recruiting game the way it is presently being played, he is at a HUGE disadvantage. Considering hold backs and grade repeaters, he is up against kids 2 years older than him, which as we all know at this age is a huge difference. So for me, I have no illusions of him going to a top D1 school. I am hoping he has a successful high school career and goes on to play college lacrosse at a school that fits his academic as well as athletic goals, whether that's lower D1, D3, whatever. I am enjoying the ride, I am spending invaluable time with my son, going to prospect days, tourneys, camps, etc. He will end up where hes supposed to, and when he does I will be ecstatic for him because hes worked his butt off to get where he is. My only advice to all of you is to help your kid however you can and enjoy the ride.

And there is the final word on this topic. Nothing more need be said. [/quote]

Final Word?? You are so wrong!!! Every kid has a different story. Not everyone will excel given the "golden ticket" that so called ticket is different for each individual. Many of you are setting your kids up for misery at one of these elite schools, happened to the director of LIE actually. His son went on to flourish at a "right fit " school. I went to Hoftsra, my brother went to Cornell. I make 2x the salary. It is about the right fit
Not every family is able to pay the big bill at the Ivies, so taking a bigger scholarship another top tier school might make more sense. Lots of parts to the equation. We are lucky to have a choice. Hope you get the same and consider what is truly best for your child.

And there is the final word on this topic. Nothing more need be said. [/quote]

Final Word?? You are so wrong!!! Every kid has a different story. Not everyone will excel given the "golden ticket" that so called ticket is different for each individual. Many of you are setting your kids up for misery at one of these elite schools, happened to the director of LIE actually. His son went on to flourish at a "right fit " school. I went to Hoftsra, my brother went to Cornell. I make 2x the salary. It is about the right fit
Not every family is able to pay the big bill at the Ivies, so taking a bigger scholarship another top tier school might make more sense. Lots of parts to the equation. We are lucky to have a choice. Hope you get the same and consider what is truly best for your child.
[/quote]

I stand corrected. My nebulous statement was short and irresponsible. I should have coveyed that the overall goal is to get a ticket...the best ticket; for the best fit regarding academics, ability,financial considerations, etc.

Hopefully, all of our guidance and choices will be accurate and geared to the child's best interests and aabilties and not just satisfying our personal egos.

Final Word?? You are so wrong!!! Every kid has a different story. Not everyone will excel given the "golden ticket" that so called ticket is different for each individual. Many of you are setting your kids up for misery at one of these elite schools, happened to the director of LIE actually. His son went on to flourish at a "right fit " school. I went to Hoftsra, my brother went to Cornell. I make 2x the salary. It is about the right fit
Not every family is able to pay the big bill at the Ivies, so taking a bigger scholarship another top tier school might make more sense. Lots of parts to the equation. We are lucky to have a choice. Hope you get the same and consider what is truly best for your child.
[/quote]

I stand corrected. My nebulous statement was short and irresponsible. I should have coveyed that the overall goal is to get a ticket...the best ticket; for the best fit regarding academics, ability,financial considerations, etc.

Hopefully, all of our guidance and choices will be accurate and geared to the child's best interests and aabilties and not just satisfying our personal egos.

[/quote]

well said!!

AT, the recent UNC committ was a decent player at the 2016 level. Since he had a "late birthday", August 1998, parents decided to have him go to a private school for a year after 8th grade so now he is a 2017 player. No way to view it other than as gaming the system. The fact that so many parents do it doesn't make it right.

Anyone have any input on the Peak200 camp? Have heard mixed things......

What is wrong about it?

They are helping their child. If you choose not to do it that is your business.
If you do not want to send your kid to private school don't send him. If you do not want your son to play for a club team have him play only for his town team.
If you do not want him to go to a showcase event don't send him. Stop worrying about what others do. There is nothing wrong with it.

oh so correct. That is absolutely gaming the system. If you knew when he was 5 he was younger and could not handle it and you held him back to start his educational career a year later I can live with that. Holding back a child in after 2nd grade for non educational issues is gaming the system.

That being said, if I had the means I would do the same. Because we are trying to get the best for our kids, but how do his friends see him after doing this. How is the reaction of the close family and friends.

He went back to his public school after going private for one year. Effectively, he took a "year off" from public school so that when he went back to HS, he was a grade lower than he otherwise would have been. Purely for athletic reasons, not academic. Gaming the system, cheating etc. No other way to see it unless you do the same thing and justify it in your minds somehow

Any school really only takes 4/5 Boys per position each year. Do the math, not a lot of spots at D1.

Most 2017 Teams very active or have a list to work from. Many Big East Schools are having Boys on unofficail visits, Boys are getting invited to College Football games and Basketball as well. Not just the ACC Schools the others are working in silence. You must put your Child in front of these Coaches they will not find you.

What's wrong is that it is a form of cheating. It's been said over and over again. Only wealthy families can afford to do this. Do you even feel at all bad for the hardworking, well deserving kid who's roster spot you took? The kid who earned it legitimately? Guess not! We have to worry about the cheaters, they are hurting the integrity of the sport. but karma will happen eventually. Just remember, just because you can do something, does not mean you should! Play fair, so you don't have to live the rest of your life wondering if your kid was good enough to make it in life competing honestly, instead of breeding a culture of deception.

There are kids on that team that started school a year later than "normal" FACT!

Are all the 2017 players that are committed "cheating"? Are they all older?

The issue becomes Timmy Reclassified gets a spot at Virginia - Tommy CorrectGrade goes to St John's (no - I am not putting St John's down there are few schools that are Virginia - just using it as a D1 Lax program)...who has the head start on a job interview? They gamed the system and it worked out - do they have to live with it - well I guess this is not the first game or system they manipulated so yeah, they will live with it, and after a UVA education and alumni connections, i would guess pretty well - so yes people are going to get upset

The alumni network conversation is a good one; this is a topic that we often discuss with families who are wondering what the value of a $50,000/year private institution might be over a $20,000/year state school or anything that ranges in the middle.

There are other points to consider in your example which only an individual family can adequately answer:

• Timmy at Virginia struggles academically and graduates with a 2.8 GPA. Tommy at St. John's handles the lacrosse and academic balance with a 3.7 GPA. Who gets the nod if both are applying for the same job?
• Timmy loved his time at UVA, but wants to return to the Northeast and settle in the New [lacrosse] tri-state area. What is the value of the UVA alumni network beyond Washington DC?
• Tommy decides to quit lacrosse after two years to concentrate on a dual major. Academics can qualify for an additional discount at St. John's. Did he need lacrosse at all in his portfolio?
• Due to lacrosse, Timmy needed an extra semester to complete his studies with the year-'round training load. If you look over four years, did the lacrosse scholarship really save anything?

This list of counter and counter-counter examples is longer than the Point-Counterpoint Segment on 60 Minutes. Our points are that when considering an institution, alumni network strength, long-term location, and financial considerations for athletics and academics are all part of the eventual equation.

Stop making sense. The whiners on this forum won't allow it.

University of Virginia is a State School and and is considerred to be a Top 25 School.

St Johns University is a Private School and is ranked around 125.

The cost is about the same for both schools unless you are a resident of Verginia.

I think that given the choice I would select Verginia every time.

The University of Virginia is estimated to be $26,200 per year for in-state residents and $54,000 per year for non-Virginia residents. Source : University of Virginia Web Site - Estimated Cost of Attendance

St. John's University cost of attendance is $44,000 per year for commuter students and $56,000 per year for on-campus students. Source : St. John's University Web Site - Estimated Cost of Attendance

However, those are the sticker prices. St. John's University had an average discount rate in excess of 40% in 2013-2014 which placed their real tuition costs in the $25,000-$30,000 per year range. The discount rate at the University of Virginia is not nearly as high.

Given the exclusive academic choice between the two, US News and World Reports would suggest UVA every time. If those were my only two choices, I would choose similarly. That said, BOTC was trying to point out other reasons, beyond the tuition bill, that might factor into a family's decision making.

Thank you for the contribution.

Gotcha. Many many very good schools out there when the time comes I just hope my kids find a good fit.

Agreed, however the original point is that some kids might not get the UVA offer because a cheating holback is going instead.

What if the only way you could get the choice is by deferring your start by a year?

I assume the answer is yes.

Holding your child back a year is not cheating. It is understanding how a system works and operating effectively in that system. If it didn't work, parents would either stop reclassifying their children or complain about those of us who are forcing our children to graduate HS on time.

I hate the system, but it is the only system we have.

The problem with the UVA, UNC, Hopkins oh they are great schools why wouldn't you go is that most, not all of the guy going there are not in that sphere of students. I know a guy who wound up being the team captain at UVA who had a 980 on the SAT and that wasn't too long ago.

Yes there are smart guys that go to those school who excel in the classroom and the lacrosse field. Maybe I have a poor sample, but I know a lot of ACC guys who went there for the lacrosse and haven't done a thing with the good degree.

I know that is anecdotal, but when I hear the UNC and UVA argument I generally have to call B.S. because at least the ones I have met and it is more than just a few were there only for the lacrosse.

It is about winning at the college level...which is why this goes on. If a "reclassified" kid gives a college coach a better chance, and the rules permit it, he is going to recruit him. I think it is ridiculous but the rules are the rules.

By the way, imagine if it were that way in the academic portion of school. Your kid ends his year with a 92 average but you want him to go Ivy so you are able to "reclassify" him and repeat the year to get that average up to a 98. That would be preposterous and not helpful in the end. On the athletics side of college, though, it is apparently ok. Again, the rules are the rules.....so people will run until they are tackled.

Excellent points CSage - and if anyone thinks with the workload to play Division I lacrosse - AND - a top 50 education is going to be able to complete a degree in 4yrs...few and far between. So you can add an additional year to your costs - hopefully they do well enough in school have endeared themselves to the staff and can get a Grad Assistant position to help....

The point made in the opening paragraph is very insightful. Athletes do tend to attend a university in their athletic sphere which does not overlap in many cases with the regular student body. This indeed might impact their ability to leverage the alumni network after graduation and might also impact their peer network in the future.

That said, also remember that the athletic community at top university programs can be an extremely tight knit family. University gifting from athletics alumni can represent 30% and more of the annual gifting budget.