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 Re: Boys 2027 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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So it sounds like they are going after double holdbacks. If you are one year older, you will be fine.
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Re: Boys 2027 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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Howard County Lacrosse League has come out of their fall meeting. They decided to eliminate eligibility for all birthdays prior to Jan 1, 2008 in the 2027 division and all corresponding divisions below with the Jan 1 date. This decision was based largely on the polling by USCL, the recent article by Inside Lacrosse and the overwhelming sentiment to put an age ceiling on their divisions. What a joke. So the 27 division is now U16. Just think about that. In some states you will have kids with learners permits driving to a HOCO game.
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Re: Boys 2027 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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Howard County Lacrosse League has come out of their fall meeting. They decided to eliminate eligibility for all birthdays prior to Jan 1, 2008 in the 2027 division and all corresponding divisions below with the Jan 1 date. This decision was based largely on the polling by USCL, the recent article by Inside Lacrosse and the overwhelming sentiment to put an age ceiling on their divisions. Excellent news. Now the great purge remains. Clubs who are effected should just move the really older kids who this effects up to their 2026 division teams. All problems solved.
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Re: Boys 2027 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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Howard County Lacrosse League has come out of their fall meeting. They decided to eliminate eligibility for all birthdays prior to Jan 1, 2008 in the 2027 division and all corresponding divisions below with the Jan 1 date. This decision was based largely on the polling by USCL, the recent article by Inside Lacrosse and the overwhelming sentiment to put an age ceiling on their divisions. What a joke. So the 27 division is now U16. Just think about that. In some states you will have kids with learners permits driving to a HOCO game. Reread. Then redirect your outrage.
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Re: Boys 2027 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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Howard County Lacrosse League has come out of their fall meeting. They decided to eliminate eligibility for all birthdays prior to Jan 1, 2008 in the 2027 division and all corresponding divisions below with the Jan 1 date. This decision was based largely on the polling by USCL, the recent article by Inside Lacrosse and the overwhelming sentiment to put an age ceiling on their divisions. What a joke. So the 27 division is now U16. Just think about that. In some states you will have kids with learners permits driving to a HOCO game. Bro, what are you taking about? On age 2027’s we’re born between 9/1/2008 amd 8/31/2009. They’re basically applying the year-based solution to 2027 (and presumably other age groups as well), simply expanding it to include birthdays that fall in the first 8 months of 2008– which is is where a LOT of current 2027 birthdays land. Applying this to 2028, nobody born prior to 2009 would be eligible for 2028. Basically kicking out the egregious violators of holdback rules.
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Re: Boys 2027 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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Howard County Lacrosse League has come out of their fall meeting. They decided to eliminate eligibility for all birthdays prior to Jan 1, 2008 in the 2027 division and all corresponding divisions below with the Jan 1 date. This decision was based largely on the polling by USCL, the recent article by Inside Lacrosse and the overwhelming sentiment to put an age ceiling on their divisions. Bravo!! The holdbacks who had no business holding back (already old for their grade) just got the boot. Should apply to lower age groups as well. Nobody born prior to 2009 should be eligible for 2028. Nobody born prior or to 2010 would be eligible for 2029, and so on…
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Re: Boys 2027 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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Anonymous
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Howard County Lacrosse League has come out of their fall meeting. They decided to eliminate eligibility for all birthdays prior to Jan 1, 2008 in the 2027 division and all corresponding divisions below with the Jan 1 date. This decision was based largely on the polling by USCL, the recent article by Inside Lacrosse and the overwhelming sentiment to put an age ceiling on their divisions. What a joke. So the 27 division is now U16. Just think about that. In some states you will have kids with learners permits driving to a HOCO game. Bro, what are you taking about? On age 2027’s we’re born between 9/1/2008 amd 8/31/2009. They’re basically applying the year-based solution to 2027 (and presumably other age groups as well), simply expanding it to include birthdays that fall in the first 8 months of 2008– which is is where a LOT of current 2027 birthdays land. Applying this to 2028, nobody born prior to 2009 would be eligible for 2028. Basically kicking out the egregious violators of holdback rules. Realistically how many kids would this impact? Across 2027 how many kids are actually born in 2007? They are still permitting kids to be within 20 months of each other in age. (Jan 2008 - Aug 2009). So…..
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Re: Boys 2027 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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Anonymous
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Howard County Lacrosse League has come out of their fall meeting. They decided to eliminate eligibility for all birthdays prior to Jan 1, 2008 in the 2027 division and all corresponding divisions below with the Jan 1 date. This decision was based largely on the polling by USCL, the recent article by Inside Lacrosse and the overwhelming sentiment to put an age ceiling on their divisions. What a joke. So the 27 division is now U16. Just think about that. In some states you will have kids with learners permits driving to a HOCO game. Bro, what are you taking about? On age 2027’s we’re born between 9/1/2008 amd 8/31/2009. They’re basically applying the year-based solution to 2027 (and presumably other age groups as well), simply expanding it to include birthdays that fall in the first 8 months of 2008– which is is where a LOT of current 2027 birthdays land. Applying this to 2028, nobody born prior to 2009 would be eligible for 2028. Basically kicking out the egregious violators of holdback rules. Bro. Reread what you just wrote. This is not just letting the summer birthdays in. This is letting kids that had they been born just three months earlier would be 25s play with 27s. It’s a joke. The kids are way closer to on age 25s than 27s.
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Re: Boys 2027 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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I don’t understand the confusion. Holdbacks will still be playing this spring. For example, my son is a true 2027 with an April 2009 birthday. If he was a holdback with the same birthday he would have been born April 2008. Those kids can still play because they make the cutoff under the new rules.
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Re: Boys 2027 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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Howard County Lacrosse League has come out of their fall meeting. They decided to eliminate eligibility for all birthdays prior to Jan 1, 2008 in the 2027 division and all corresponding divisions below with the Jan 1 date. This decision was based largely on the polling by USCL, the recent article by Inside Lacrosse and the overwhelming sentiment to put an age ceiling on their divisions. What a joke. So the 27 division is now U16. Just think about that. In some states you will have kids with learners permits driving to a HOCO game. Bro, what are you taking about? On age 2027’s we’re born between 9/1/2008 amd 8/31/2009. They’re basically applying the year-based solution to 2027 (and presumably other age groups as well), simply expanding it to include birthdays that fall in the first 8 months of 2008– which is is where a LOT of current 2027 birthdays land. Applying this to 2028, nobody born prior to 2009 would be eligible for 2028. Basically kicking out the egregious violators of holdback rules. Bro. Reread what you just wrote. This is not just letting the summer birthdays in. This is letting kids that had they been born just three months earlier would be 25s play with 27s. It’s a joke. The kids are way closer to on age 25s than 27s. Should totally just be based on a 12 month cycle. If you were born in 2008 you play together, etc.
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Re: Boys 2027 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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Howard County Lacrosse League has come out of their fall meeting. They decided to eliminate eligibility for all birthdays prior to Jan 1, 2008 in the 2027 division and all corresponding divisions below with the Jan 1 date. This decision was based largely on the polling by USCL, the recent article by Inside Lacrosse and the overwhelming sentiment to put an age ceiling on their divisions. What a joke. So the 27 division is now U16. Just think about that. In some states you will have kids with learners permits driving to a HOCO game. Bro, what are you taking about? On age 2027’s we’re born between 9/1/2008 amd 8/31/2009. They’re basically applying the year-based solution to 2027 (and presumably other age groups as well), simply expanding it to include birthdays that fall in the first 8 months of 2008– which is is where a LOT of current 2027 birthdays land. Applying this to 2028, nobody born prior to 2009 would be eligible for 2028. Basically kicking out the egregious violators of holdback rules. Bro. Reread what you just wrote. This is not just letting the summer birthdays in. This is letting kids that had they been born just three months earlier would be 25s play with 27s. It’s a joke. The kids are way closer to on age 25s than 27s. Should totally just be based on a 12 month cycle. If you were born in 2008 you play together, etc. This seems like an effort to gradually transition to 12 month age rules for 2023/2024. The current age range is probably something like 26 months with maybe a few mythical "double holdbacks". This would reduce the range to 20 months for spring 2023 and likely not impact too many players or teams. Then summer tryouts for 2023/2024 (for 2028 and below) would be a strict 12 month range. It gets rid of the egregious cases while not totally blowing up rosters.
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Re: Boys 2027 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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Howard County Lacrosse League has come out of their fall meeting. They decided to eliminate eligibility for all birthdays prior to Jan 1, 2008 in the 2027 division and all corresponding divisions below with the Jan 1 date. This decision was based largely on the polling by USCL, the recent article by Inside Lacrosse and the overwhelming sentiment to put an age ceiling on their divisions. What a joke. So the 27 division is now U16. Just think about that. In some states you will have kids with learners permits driving to a HOCO game. Bro, what are you taking about? On age 2027’s we’re born between 9/1/2008 amd 8/31/2009. They’re basically applying the year-based solution to 2027 (and presumably other age groups as well), simply expanding it to include birthdays that fall in the first 8 months of 2008– which is is where a LOT of current 2027 birthdays land. Applying this to 2028, nobody born prior to 2009 would be eligible for 2028. Basically kicking out the egregious violators of holdback rules. Realistically how many kids would this impact? Across 2027 how many kids are actually born in 2007? They are still permitting kids to be within 20 months of each other in age. (Jan 2008 - Aug 2009). So….. Not many… but will certainly weed out the egregious holdbacks. January 1 cutoff makes the most sense, to avoid having teams splinter midway through the season.
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Re: Boys 2027 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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Howard County Lacrosse League has come out of their fall meeting. They decided to eliminate eligibility for all birthdays prior to Jan 1, 2008 in the 2027 division and all corresponding divisions below with the Jan 1 date. This decision was based largely on the polling by USCL, the recent article by Inside Lacrosse and the overwhelming sentiment to put an age ceiling on their divisions. What a joke. So the 27 division is now U16. Just think about that. In some states you will have kids with learners permits driving to a HOCO game. Bro, what are you taking about? On age 2027’s we’re born between 9/1/2008 amd 8/31/2009. They’re basically applying the year-based solution to 2027 (and presumably other age groups as well), simply expanding it to include birthdays that fall in the first 8 months of 2008– which is is where a LOT of current 2027 birthdays land. Applying this to 2028, nobody born prior to 2009 would be eligible for 2028. Basically kicking out the egregious violators of holdback rules. Bro. Reread what you just wrote. This is not just letting the summer birthdays in. This is letting kids that had they been born just three months earlier would be 25s play with 27s. It’s a joke. The kids are way closer to on age 25s than 27s. I know exactly what I wrote. YES— you’re letting in spring/summer holdbacks, anyone born after Dec 31, 2007. Which is half of these elite 2027 teams. When you go to Year-based, you’ll need to use January 1st as the cutoff to avoid having teams losing players mid season— you think all kids born in 2008, including the fall months of 2008 (who are on age 2027), should be banned from 2027 HoCo league? Good luck with that…
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Re: Boys 2027 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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Anonymous
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Howard County Lacrosse League has come out of their fall meeting. They decided to eliminate eligibility for all birthdays prior to Jan 1, 2008 in the 2027 division and all corresponding divisions below with the Jan 1 date. This decision was based largely on the polling by USCL, the recent article by Inside Lacrosse and the overwhelming sentiment to put an age ceiling on their divisions. What a joke. So the 27 division is now U16. Just think about that. In some states you will have kids with learners permits driving to a HOCO game. Bro, what are you taking about? On age 2027’s we’re born between 9/1/2008 amd 8/31/2009. They’re basically applying the year-based solution to 2027 (and presumably other age groups as well), simply expanding it to include birthdays that fall in the first 8 months of 2008– which is is where a LOT of current 2027 birthdays land. Applying this to 2028, nobody born prior to 2009 would be eligible for 2028. Basically kicking out the egregious violators of holdback rules. Bro. Reread what you just wrote. This is not just letting the summer birthdays in. This is letting kids that had they been born just three months earlier would be 25s play with 27s. It’s a joke. The kids are way closer to on age 25s than 27s. I know exactly what I wrote. YES— you’re letting in spring/summer holdbacks, anyone born after Dec 31, 2007. Which is half of these elite 2027 teams. When you go to Year-based, you’ll need to use January 1st as the cutoff to avoid having teams losing players mid season— you think all kids born in 2008, including the fall months of 2008 (who are on age 2027), should be banned from 2027 HoCo league? Good luck with that… Step one in the process. Smaller windows still coming the following year.
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Re: Boys 2027 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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Never going to happen, but keep arguing about it.
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Re: Boys 2027 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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Step one in the process. Smaller windows still coming the following year.[/quote]
The following year these boys will be in high school. Maybe you should post some of your wishful thinking on the younger grade forums.
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Re: Boys 2027 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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Never going to happen, but keep arguing about it. Hang on Dad, your son is almost in high school with 5+ years of being the oldest and probably one of the bigger kids on the field. Enjoy JV.
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Re: Boys 2027 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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Never going to happen, but keep arguing about it. Hang on Dad, your son is almost in high school with 5+ years of being the oldest and probably one of the bigger kids on the field. Enjoy JV. Correction- enjoy JV ... as a junior.
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Re: Boys 2027 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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Never going to happen, but keep arguing about it. Until it shows up in the 2023 rules and bylaws, you're just trolling. Go hit the wall!
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Re: Boys 2027 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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Howard County Lacrosse League has come out of their fall meeting. They decided to eliminate eligibility for all birthdays prior to Jan 1, 2008 in the 2027 division and all corresponding divisions below with the Jan 1 date. This decision was based largely on the polling by USCL, the recent article by Inside Lacrosse and the overwhelming sentiment to put an age ceiling on their divisions.[/quote] I wouldn't believe anything said on BOTC unless it's in writing, which it is not. The new 2023 bylaws mention nothing of age requirements. But have fun arguing about it. https://www.ghclacrosse.com/rules
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Re: Boys 2027 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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Howard County Lacrosse League has come out of their fall meeting. They decided to eliminate eligibility for all birthdays prior to Jan 1, 2008 in the 2027 division and all corresponding divisions below with the Jan 1 date. This decision was based largely on the polling by USCL, the recent article by Inside Lacrosse and the overwhelming sentiment to put an age ceiling on their divisions. I wouldn't believe anything said on BOTC unless it's in writing, which it is not. The new 2023 bylaws mention nothing of age requirements. But have fun arguing about it. https://www.ghclacrosse.com/rulesTotally agree with that. The three most powerful entities in lacrosse are the club programs, prep schools and college programs. I don’t believe any of them have an interest in seeing age restrictions put in place.
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Re: Boys 2027 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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Re: Boys 2027 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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Re: Boys 2027 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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I guess your an angry hold back person.
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Re: Boys 2027 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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I guess your an angry hold back person. Who are you referring to?
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Howard County Lacrosse League has come out of their fall meeting. They decided to eliminate eligibility for all birthdays prior to Jan 1, 2008 in the 2027 division and all corresponding divisions below with the Jan 1 date. This decision was based largely on the polling by USCL, the recent article by Inside Lacrosse and the overwhelming sentiment to put an age ceiling on their divisions. I wouldn't believe anything said on BOTC unless it's in writing, which it is not. The new 2023 bylaws mention nothing of age requirements. But have fun arguing about it. https://www.ghclacrosse.com/rulesTotally agree with that. The three most powerful entities in lacrosse are the club programs, prep schools and college programs. I don’t believe any of them have an interest in seeing age restrictions put in place. That is exactly the truth... Top Clubs want holdbacks to be above the rest, Privates want Holdbacks to be better than the rest, And colleges wabt older players HOCO league is the reason grade based exploded years ago. Main reason was guy running had son in MIAA .Kid is gone as is he, Wonder if they care as much now
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Re: Boys 2027 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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No rule change in HoCo. I will post the director's email and phone number if you want to complain.
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Re: Boys 2027 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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Howard County Lacrosse League has come out of their fall meeting. They decided to eliminate eligibility for all birthdays prior to Jan 1, 2008 in the 2027 division and all corresponding divisions below with the Jan 1 date. This decision was based largely on the polling by USCL, the recent article by Inside Lacrosse and the overwhelming sentiment to put an age ceiling on their divisions. I wouldn't believe anything said on BOTC unless it's in writing, which it is not. The new 2023 bylaws mention nothing of age requirements. But have fun arguing about it. https://www.ghclacrosse.com/rulesTotally agree with that. The three most powerful entities in lacrosse are the club programs, prep schools and college programs. I don’t believe any of them have an interest in seeing age restrictions put in place. That is exactly the truth... Top Clubs want holdbacks to be above the rest, Privates want Holdbacks to be better than the rest, And colleges wabt older players HOCO league is the reason grade based exploded years ago. Main reason was guy running had son in MIAA .Kid is gone as is he, Wonder if they care as much now HoCo is not the reason grade based exploded. People just make up anything.n
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Re: Boys 2027 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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Howard County Lacrosse League has come out of their fall meeting. They decided to eliminate eligibility for all birthdays prior to Jan 1, 2008 in the 2027 division and all corresponding divisions below with the Jan 1 date. This decision was based largely on the polling by USCL, the recent article by Inside Lacrosse and the overwhelming sentiment to put an age ceiling on their divisions. I wouldn't believe anything said on BOTC unless it's in writing, which it is not. The new 2023 bylaws mention nothing of age requirements. But have fun arguing about it. https://www.ghclacrosse.com/rulesTotally agree with that. The three most powerful entities in lacrosse are the club programs, prep schools and college programs. I don’t believe any of them have an interest in seeing age restrictions put in place. That is exactly the truth... Top Clubs want holdbacks to be above the rest, Privates want Holdbacks to be better than the rest, And colleges wabt older players HOCO league is the reason grade based exploded years ago. Main reason was guy running had son in MIAA .Kid is gone as is he, Wonder if they care as much now HoCo is not the reason grade based exploded. People just make up anything.n Grade base lacrosse was for recruiting purposes. You people can complain all you want but it’s not going to change. None of the upper clubs would agree since only way they get better in upper age groups is to assemble the most holdback talent. They don’t develop players. There’s no money to be made changing to age base. Next topic
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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]
Grade base lacrosse was for recruiting purposes. You people can complain all you want but it’s not going to change. None of the upper clubs would agree since only way they get better in upper age groups is to assemble the most holdback talent. They don’t develop players. There’s no money to be made changing to age base. Next topic Sad but true. The only way any club wins is with older kids playing down. Youth through HS.
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Grade base lacrosse was for recruiting purposes. You people can complain all you want but it’s not going to change. None of the upper clubs would agree since only way they get better in upper age groups is to assemble the most holdback talent. They don’t develop players. There’s no money to be made changing to age base. Next topic Uhm, you aren't thinking like a club owner or tournament director. There IS money to be made changing to age based. You squeeze the age range so you get to add another age group to tournaments or another team to your club. Each club is set to make ~$50K a year more just by adding just one more team in that age group. Approx $2500 x 20 kids And then there is the added "administrative charge" of ensuring age verifications are correct. Trust me, it's gonna happen. The club directors and tournament directors are already thinking about it.
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Grade base lacrosse was for recruiting purposes. You people can complain all you want but it’s not going to change. None of the upper clubs would agree since only way they get better in upper age groups is to assemble the most holdback talent. They don’t develop players. There’s no money to be made changing to age base. Next topic Uhm, you aren't thinking like a club owner or tournament director. There IS money to be made changing to age based. You squeeze the age range so you get to add another age group to tournaments or another team to your club. Each club is set to make ~$50K a year more just by adding just one more team in that age group. Approx $2500 x 20 kids And then there is the added "administrative charge" of ensuring age verifications are correct. Trust me, it's gonna happen. The club directors and tournament directors are already thinking about it. This make no sense at all. So switching to age based doubles amount of kids? Bet you were great in math class. Hope your parents didn’t waste money on private school. That would mean 28 elite only would have approximately 160 holdbacks? Bet be hard to find probably 40. Also most good clubs don’t want 2 teams. They only want one good one.
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Grade base lacrosse was for recruiting purposes. You people can complain all you want but it’s not going to change. None of the upper clubs would agree since only way they get better in upper age groups is to assemble the most holdback talent. They don’t develop players. There’s no money to be made changing to age base. Next topic Uhm, you aren't thinking like a club owner or tournament director. There IS money to be made changing to age based. You squeeze the age range so you get to add another age group to tournaments or another team to your club. Each club is set to make ~$50K a year more just by adding just one more team in that age group. Approx $2500 x 20 kids And then there is the added "administrative charge" of ensuring age verifications are correct. Trust me, it's gonna happen. The club directors and tournament directors are already thinking about it. This make no sense at all. So switching to age based doubles amount of kids? Bet you were great in math class. Hope your parents didn’t waste money on private school. That would mean 28 elite only would have approximately 160 holdbacks? Bet be hard to find probably 40. Also most good clubs don’t want 2 teams. They only want one good one. No, that gets spread across all age groups. Each age group gets pinched and slightly watered down with talent. Look at tryouts. They are all mobbed. Look at these elite teams carrying 24-28 kids at middle school. It only works because you still have more overall kids and demand, than roster spots.
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Re: Boys 2027 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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Let’s take Crabs as an example. We all know they have no desire to change. Every team around the 8th grade year completely flipped with holdbacks and out of state players. Overnight they become a top 5 team. I don’t see anyone with real influence changing that.
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Re: Boys 2027 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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Grade base lacrosse was for recruiting purposes. You people can complain all you want but it’s not going to change. None of the upper clubs would agree since only way they get better in upper age groups is to assemble the most holdback talent. They don’t develop players. There’s no money to be made changing to age base. Next topic Uhm, you aren't thinking like a club owner or tournament director. There IS money to be made changing to age based. You squeeze the age range so you get to add another age group to tournaments or another team to your club. Each club is set to make ~$50K a year more just by adding just one more team in that age group. Approx $2500 x 20 kids And then there is the added "administrative charge" of ensuring age verifications are correct. Trust me, it's gonna happen. The club directors and tournament directors are already thinking about it. Totally valid point… current teams have overlap from 3 different birth years.
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Re: Boys 2027 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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Let’s take Crabs as an example. We all know they have no desire to change. Every team around the 8th grade year completely flipped with holdbacks and out of state players. Overnight they become a top 5 team. I don’t see anyone with real influence changing that. In years past their 8th grade team became a top 5 team. This year, with the current 27s? We haven't seen that improvement yet..
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Re: Boys 2027 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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Let’s take Crabs as an example. We all know they have no desire to change. Every team around the 8th grade year completely flipped with holdbacks and out of state players. Overnight they become a top 5 team. I don’t see anyone with real influence changing that. In years past their 8th grade team became a top 5 team. This year, with the current 27s? We haven't seen that improvement yet.. Ummm....I know it's fall but they are #5 which is a huge improvement from where they were at the end of last year. So it seems like the trend may continue...
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Re: Boys 2027 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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Let’s take Crabs as an example. We all know they have no desire to change. Every team around the 8th grade year completely flipped with holdbacks and out of state players. Overnight they become a top 5 team. I don’t see anyone with real influence changing that. In years past their 8th grade team became a top 5 team. This year, with the current 27s? We haven't seen that improvement yet.. Ummm....I know it's fall but they are #5 which is a huge improvement from where they were at the end of last year. So it seems like the trend may continue... They aren’t the 5th best team in the country. Enjoy your fall ranking.
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Re: Boys 2027 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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They aren’t the 5th best team in MD.
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Re: Boys 2027 Grads - Mid Atlantic Region
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Let’s take Crabs as an example. We all know they have no desire to change. Every team around the 8th grade year completely flipped with holdbacks and out of state players. Overnight they become a top 5 team. I don’t see anyone with real influence changing that. In years past their 8th grade team became a top 5 team. This year, with the current 27s? We haven't seen that improvement yet.. Ummm....I know it's fall but they are #5 which is a huge improvement from where they were at the end of last year. So it seems like the trend may continue... They aren’t the 5th best team in the country. Enjoy your fall ranking. Maybe 25th
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