BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums NORTHEAST LACROSSE BOTC MAIN FORUM (LI, CT, WC) 2021-2022 Women's DI-III College Lacrosse Season

**Looking at your rankings/math here….shouldn’t Duke be in your “mid-tier” with 53 points, 1 point more than PS and ND - rather then 8 points below last place BC in the “top-tier”. But I understand your bias.

I don't think it's a ranking, it is just an actual factual account of the competition each team plays. Too many on here base their comments on opinion not actual results or facts.

Duke plays a weak out of conference schedule but overall they play a more difficult schedule than just about every other team.

This is the second cowardly attack on a young women, why such animosity? Never mind, we know the answer.

In order for a team to be considered a top tier team they should have to play top tier teams.... Can't just go out and beat up on weak competition.

Here is how many games the following teams played against Top 5 opponents from 2015 - 2021 (Penn & Princeton 2014 - 2020 since they did not play in 21)

34 - Syracuse
33 - Northwestern
32 - UNC
31 - Virginia
30 - Maryland

29 - Boston College
25 - Notre Dame
23 - Duke
21 - Florida

19 - JMU
15 - Princeton
14 - Penn State
13 - Penn

9 - USC
9 - Stony Brook
8 - Loyola
6 - Stanford

I guess spin, hype and propaganda can not change facts, perception does not equal reality.

I am guessing that Va Tech and Louisville most likely play a more difficult schedule than USC, Stony Brook, Loyola and Stanford.

Since we are in 2022, look at the facts for this season. Of the 9 teams in the ACC, Duke has the 8th ranked schedule ahead of only Pitt, a first year program.

what are the number if you take out conference games, that are required.

Who cares? Why the obsession with OOC games? A team’s overall schedule is what matters.

What would be the point of that? All games count, what purpose would taking out conference games serve?

It is what it is, Duke consistently plays a more difficult schedule than all but a handful of teams. Conference, non-conference it doesn't matter, they all count.

Why some on here want to spin it any other way seems very strange to me. What could their agenda possibly be? Personally I could care less who Duke plays but the facts are the facts, they play a very competitive schedule.

Sampling of teams and number of current top 25 teams on their 2022 schedule:

Duke - 6

UF - 8
JMU - 7
Drexel - 6
Arizona - 6
Stony Brook - 5
Denver - 5
Vandy - 5

I didn’t even bother checking Big 10 and ACC because they automatically get ranked opponents through conference and then schedule more OOC.

Yes, some of the ranked opponents might drop out but other opponents might be ranked by end of season. Either way, those bubble teams don’t fall too far out of top 25. I’m not sure Duke has any unranked opponents that have a chance of being ranked by end of season. We’ll see if Penn stays top 25.

Lol, that’s funny. Duke is an average team who will be exposed soon enough. Look at their history. They have never won anything except one conference title almost 20 years ago. They just don’t attract the best girls. Not sure why but I have feeling it’s due to the coaching.

Results matter as well. I took the last 5 seasons (2021, 2019, 2018, 2017 and 2016) from Duke's website (they actually have 1 result incorrect against Virginia Tech in the ACC conference tournament) and the final IWLCA rankings. Well, it is pretty clear why Duke's 2022 schedule is ranked 8th out 9 in the ACC, they are not winning competitive games. I count 51 games against top 25 ranked teams (in some poll years the IWLCA only did 20 so I also counted those receiving votes). Duke is 12-39 against ranked teams. During that 5 year stretch, they have 4 top 10 wins, a #8, 2 #9s and a #10. Those results get you their 2022 out of conference schedule as they cannot afford to lose any additional games outside of conference.

Actually, what's funny is how the haters like to change the subject and the narrative. Not a single person on here said anything about Duke winning anything. It was a simple discussion about Strength of Schedule. Duke is certainly an above average team who plays an above average schedule. I'm going out on a limb and going to guess that many of the detractors have an academic inferiority complex . Whatever the horse has been beaten to death and the lies exposed. Duke is a very solid program better than at least 100 other programs and they play one of the more competitive schedules each year.

Haters gonna detest...

Just compare the men's program to the women's and you get the same answer. All the same advantages from a recruiting perspective with different results when it comes to winning time.
Women- 7 NCAA semi-finals (1 in last 10 years), 0 finals and 0 championships
Men- 12 NCAA semi-finals (5 in the last 10 years), 6 finals (3 in the last 10 years) and 3 championships (2 in the last 10 years)

No kidding, that was the point from the beginning...

This is really getting comical. Keep moving the goalpost and the narrative. Now we are comparing Duke Men's and Women's Teams? I just do not get the obsession with trying to diminish Duke.

The Facts are the Facts.

Duke plays a more competitive schedule every year than all but a small number of teams.

Duke, by all accounts is a stronger program than at least 100 other programs.

Duke has accomplished more than probably all but maybe 10 - 15 programs.

Sorry, I just do not understand the detest or the attempts to knock Duke or spread misinformation.

I truly believe it a jealousy or inferiority thing. Either way it's all a bit nutty to me.

I think the whole thing started with people being disgusted with Duke’s unsportsmanlike behavior. Makes people want to root against them. I for one look forward to seeking them getting a taste of their own medicine.

Apparently, results do not matter. Just compare the results of Duke and Stony Brook during the years that you looked at (2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2021).

Vs Top 20

12 - 36 Duke
16 - 12 Stony Brook

Vs Top 10

7 - 24 Duke
3 - 11 Stony Brook

Vs Top 5

1 - 19 Duke
0 - 8 Stony Brook

Can someone please explain how Stony Brook gets ranked in the top 10 most years while Duke struggles to get ranked in the Top 20? Sorry, I just do not get it. Stony Brook does not play a very difficult schedule and they rarely beat Top 10 Teams. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

I guess now we all know why Duke is scheduling less competitive non-conference games. Beat up on those teams and maybe they will be rewarded.

Comparing Duke to the entire universe of D1 lacrosse is silly. That being said, here are their final rankings over the last 5 seasons. Ranked in the top 10-1, top 25-2, unranked- 2. For the unranked, they were less than the 25th ranked team. During that same time, they are 12-39 against teams ranked in the top 25 with only 4 top 10 wins. Their ranking is actually being lifted more by losing to good teams then beating them!!! No matter how you do the math, they are not a top 10-15 team the last 5 seasons.

IWLCA FINAL RANK
2021- #8
2019- #21
2018- unranked
2017- unranked
2016- #11

TOP 25 WIN/LOSS RECORD & TOP 10 WINS
2021- 3-7 (1 vs. #8)
2019- 2-8 (1 vs. #9)
2018- 2-9 (1 vs. #8)
2017- 0-8 (0 wins)
2016- 5-7 (1 vs. #10)

Exactly correct. They played Gardner-Webb and Elon. Won 22-3 and 25-5. Their top two players scored 22 goals.

Not by Choice

Duke beat Gardner-Webb and Elon and jumped 8 spots higher in the IWLCA rankings...

Although I agree with the embarrasment of running up the score like they do. There is no justification to bashing any young women on here, especially when that " no name" "mediocre" " non talented" young women was the #5 recruit in her graduating class according to IL

Here we go again, just like a previous post stated.... Move the goal post and change the narrative. I will take the numbers as being accurate but if you say Duke is not a Top 10 - 15 team, How in the world does a teams like Stony Brook get ranked in the Top 10 even The Top 5? Makes no sense.

100% agree. I'm willing to bet whoever posted it is still mad that the player received more lacrosse accolades and went to a far better University.

Actually, comparing Duke to the entire lacrosse is not silly at all. In fact that is exactly what you are doing when you say they are not a Top 10 - 15 the past 5 seasons. With the exception of: Boston College, Maryland, North Carolin, Northwestern, Florida, Syracuse and possibly Virgina, Princeton and Notre Dame what programs are better? As for your statement "Their ranking is actually being lifted more by losing to good teams then beating them!!!" I will say at least Duke is playing the best teams.

There is no math being done, people are simply putting out actual results. Really it is the Duke haters who keep trying to come up wiith different ways to support their opinion but it simply does not work. The numbers are the numbers.

This has become very entertaining watching haters try to come up with way to negate reality.

"Actually, comparing Duke to the entire lacrosse is not silly at all. In fact that is exactly what you are doing when you say they are not a Top 10 - 15 the past 5 seasons. With the exception of: Boston College, Maryland, North Carolin, Northwestern, Florida, Syracuse and possibly Virgina, Princeton and Notre Dame what programs are better? As for your statement "Their ranking is actually being lifted more by losing to good teams then beating them!!!" I will say at least Duke is playing the best teams.

There is no math being done, people are simply putting out actual results. Really it is the Duke haters who keep trying to come up wiith different ways to support their opinion but it simply does not work. The numbers are the numbers.

This has become very entertaining watching haters try to come up with way to negate reality."

Do you think their out of conference schedule this year is appropriate for a top 20 team? Do you think running up the score by over 20 goals against clearly over matched opponents who you selected to play is good sportsmanship. Its entertaining to watch the Duke fans do anything to avoid admitting the simple truth , your coaches schedule non competitive out of conference games because they know you have a good chance at losing to teams in the top 25 and not getting to .500 and missing the NCAA tournament again. You again try to say that UVA, Princeton,,ND have been possibly better than Duke the past 5 seasons when all have been better , take UVA for example who play a difficult out of conference schedule every year and have made the NCAA tornament each of the last 5 seasons while Duke has not .The ggod news is Duke will make the NCAA tournament this year and will not make it very deep again.

No. Agree that the Duke OOC schedule is not appropriate. But stop crapping on SBU and lets see what you have to say about the Maryland OOC this year. Talk about ducking the competition.

Is this a joke ?

Remarks about individual players will not be tolerated. Please refrain from such comments even if “code” is being used to single them out. Debate about teams, strength of schedule, etc are OK if not entertaining. Do not bring the student athletes into the discussion in a negative way. It’s the first week folks!

No problem with their non conference schedule, they can play who they want. By they way, it was pointed out why they do it very early on and nobody is defending it, it is what it is.

BC just ran up the score 22 - 5 with CN putting up 7, i wonder if we will hear the same BS?

Not a single person on here has not admitted exactly why Duke schedules weak out of conference games.

So, If UVA, Princeton and ND along with the other teams mentioned above are all stronger programs than Duke, which of the other 100 programs are stronger?

Which of the other 100 programs play a tougher schedule?

Who is crapping on Stony Brook? They play a weak schedule every year, they do not do well when they do play strong teams, they have under performed in the NCAA Tournament based on expectations every year. Their record vs Top 10 teams is not good. Those are just facts. sorry if you do not like the truth.

Duke has 1 (Penn) top 25 out of conference opponent, Maryland has 5 (Virginia, Florida, Penn, Princeton, James Madison)

Strange obsession with this non conference nonsense. Overall SOS is really all that matters.

Really digging deep now.

MOVING ON from this super annoying debate between like 3 people...UConn barely squeaked out a win against Fairfield. Is UConn ranked too high?

Current rankings mean very little, the only rankings that have some meaning (even though the selection committee says they are not part of the selection criteria) are the rankings / RPI / SOS / Quality Wins at the end of the regular season. ACC,B1G, Ivy, Patriot, CAA and PAC conferences that many years have multiple at large bids now have two additional teams to compete with in JMU and SBU for the Bid. JMU and Stony Brook also now have a much more difficult path to the Tournament, should be interesting.

Lol, that just about sums it!

Below are the results if you average the final IWLCA rankings over the past 5 full seasons. For the ivies I also used 2015 as they all did not play last year. There are a few years were IWLCA had a top 25 and earlier years where it was a top 20. Where they also had teams as receiving votes I added them as the next ranked team such as #26 or #21. Several teams have a year where they were not ranked. I used a ranking of #30 as a plug. Interesting results. I can see some folks not liking certain teams being ranked ahead of Duke, but that is the data. Also, take Stanford that was 2-0 against Duke, USC that was 1-0 against Duke, PENN 3-1 against Duke. Anyway, don't let a short memory and slanted view take away from how these teams performed. My two cents, #19 is about right for Duke over that time period with an IWLCA ranking of #8, #21, N/R, N/R and #11. They also went 12-39 over that period against top 25 teams with no wins against a team ranked higher then #8.

Let's see how Duke handles their incredibly demanding schedule over the next two weeks with William & Mary, High Point, Wofford and East Carolina.

1. UNC 3.2
2. Maryland 3.4
3. BC 5.2
4. Stony Brook 6.8
5. Syracuse 7.8
6. Florida 8.2
7. Northwestern 8.2
8. Princeton 10.0
9. PENN 12.0
10. Virginia 12.4
11. James Madison 13.0
12. Notre Dame 13.0
13. Penn St. 16.8
14. Loyola 17.2
15. USC 17.8
16. Navy 19.8
17. Stanford 20.0
18. Denver 21.6
19. Duke 22.0
20. Johns Hopkins 22.2
21. Colorado 22.2
22. MASS 23.8
23. Louisville 26.0

Thanks for the leg work.

Since you still want to harp on Duke and only focus on their week out of conference schedule, please tell me how Stony Brook is at 4. They have done absolutely nothing and they play a weak schedule every year.

Many UConn was practicing good sportsmanship. Nah, that’s can’t be it the only team that is unsportsmanlike is Duke. Nobody else would ever run the score up.

I just do not understand the focus on Duke. Has there been a single post where someone has said that Duke should have been ranked higher or that they should have made the tournament in the years where they did not? I have seen several posts over the past year or two or even three that have listed the 10 "best" programs and I am pretty sure that they are the exact same programs that your analysis has identified. I agreed and believed that those 10 programs were the 10 best programs based on their "Final Ranking" over the years. However, this discussion has shed some light on results as apposed to just rankings. Based on performance and results Stony Brook has been highly over ranked. Their SOS does not compare with any of the Top 10 with the exception of possibly Penn and their results in no way justify a top 10 ranking. It appears that the focus on knocking Duke has exposed Stony Brook. Duke seems to be punished for a lackluster record while playing a very difficult schedule while Stony Brook seems to be rewarded for playing a week schedule and padding their record. I am a firm believer that teams should be rewarded for playing a difficult schedule (SOS matters) but at the same time you actually have to win some games against the best teams if you want to be considered a top team. Neither Duke or Stony Brook have done that but their treatment in the polls / rankings has been very different. Based on their SOS every year Duke could probably have been ranked a little higher but Stony Brook should be no where near # 4. USC, Loyola, Penn and Stanford also appear to benefit from a soft schedule but by far Stony Brook has been the most overrated.

A question was asked earlier asking to explain why Stony Brook is always ranked so high, I haven't seen an answer but the reason can not be based on their performance or results.