BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums NORTHEAST LACROSSE BOTC MAIN FORUM (LI, CT, WC) Boys 2017 Fall 2012/Spring 2013

West Coast Starz did NOT beat VLC - they lost to them this spring in the only matchup.

At Young Gunz, VLC was missing several key players.

Inside Lacrosse just came out with a nice article on the 2017 talent at the Jake Reed Blue Chip. Of the handful of standout players mentioned two play on Long Island clubs. Rest were from all over the country. Nice that we are still showing some leadership on the island.

It is a competitive society we live in. Step up to the competition no matter what age. Here is the reality if your a freshman in college you will be playing guys 4 to potentially 7 years older(for example a held back kid, a pg year and a redshirt year) Might as well start learning how the world works now. If your kid cant play well against a 2016 he might as well find another sport.

This has to be the all-time dumbest comment. Because someone is unable to play at the level of another individual, they are meant to quit a sport?!!! That is like telling every golfer that did not win this past week's British Open (sorry, The Open) to quit golf because they couldn't compete. People play sports for a variety of reasons, most of them because they enjoy the sport and the camaraderie. Further, the difference in maturiity, physical and emotional, between most Freshmen and Juniors or Seniors are significant; that is why many programs (Chammy, Manhasset, and others) do not generally bring up Freshman onto the Varisty team.. Give people time to mature and they will do remarkable things. Stop assuming that the best kids now will necessarily be the best kids in 2017; many will, but many won't.

Wow, someone that has a clue! How refreshing. Its no secret that all the big programs do not bring up younger kids and hence they are successful. Time will tell how these kids that are dominating now do once they get to varsity. Enjoy every minute of your sons success now because it can be gone in a flash. Be humble and keep things in perspective.

Why is this such a difficult question to answer? (wasn't my post but, just wondering)There are different reasons for kids to repeat or start late, etc. but, when comparing "apples to apples" at the 13/14/15 year old athletic level, it can't be done when you bring in a team filled with 15/16 year olds playing against 13/14 year olds. It really should be everyone's "business" on a youth sport field. There should be age requirements, not graduation years at the younger levels. Throwing jabs, making excuses, boasting that your 15/16 year old won a 2017 tournament is, sadly, what this forum has become. IDK why it is so difficult for people to say when their kids are born.

Because the truth is sometimes difficult. The only way to solve this is to go to an age based system in the pre-high school years such as the U15 championship run by US Lacrosse. We just need a few other high profile events to change in that direction and eventually it will become the norm. But starting in the high school years - it has to be by graduating class becuase of the recruiting aspect. But at the youth levels, it should always be by age.

Agreed also by high school most of the boys are done growing. The size difference between a 12 and 13 year old will be much greater compared to a 16 to 17 year old. Having age appropriate tournaments with birth certificate proof will stop all of the nonsense with parents holding a child back or different school starts that vary from state to state. This would work as it does in many other sports I.E. hockey .

Unfortunately the 2017 will be starting HS in the fall and will attend JV and varsity level games and this becomes a bit more muted for them, this needs to be a driving force on all the younger level forums. 2022 to 2018

I am curious to the fact for "anyone in the know". Did you start you child late in school (held them back) but currently say your child is "playing up" in grade, although you know the "playing up" is really where they are supposed to be playing in the first place.

This conversation happened on the sidelines of a 2019 game.

Dad x - "Did you know "little Johnny" is playing up, so you could imagine how good he is when he plays with is own grade!!!

Dad y - You do realize the boy he is playing against is my son 3 weeks younger than your son and in the right grade.

Dad x - Wow didn't know that, you should hold him back in 8th grade, he would be a stud in HS.

Cage - Have you had any conversations with US Lacrosse regarding the U or Aged-Based concerns? I know personally I have written emails and letters regarding this and have never received a response. Maybe someone who has this voice behind you (on your boards) maybe they will listen, or maybe..just maybe they will send out a response or a path forward or at least their ideas.... their silence is maddening in the face of early recruiting and these age discrepancies... and in the end it condones these practice(s) by not leading.....

BOTC had discussions regarding age group structures (one-year vs. two-year U-groups) and player passes during Spring 2012 shortly after the National Conference in Philadelphia. Their answers were that instituting a full-blown player pass system was prohibitively expensive (investment, staffing, audits) and that there were not a sufficient number of documented age-group violations to make the effort worth the expense.

Here is our view. Just like 2011/2012 on BOTC was a year of trying to level the playing field on tournament and tryout visibilty, the theme of 2012/2013 was really one of exposing this age-group problem in more detail as more users have come forward with evidence of issues.

Moreso, several tournaments themselves that had problems in the past with age-group alignments have stepped forward to actually lead the campaign to police their tournament age groups. The Big Time Shootout Tournament was a true leader on the tournament front this year on age policing.

On the one hand, it is great that tournaments are starting to take up the challenge. The downside of course is that US Lacrosse is somewhat "vindicated" in their lack of action with the tournaments now self-policing. We wonder why US Lacrosse sees the need to regulate their U/15 Championships (this week) yet does not recognize that year round obligation.

BOTC works closely with the LIMLF (US Lacrosse's Long Island Chapter) and you can be sure that these issues are front and center of every discussion that we have.

Thank you Cage - unfortunately this is what I thought. They are willing to sacrifice safety and the future of the game because it may be cost prohibitive....Wow, and the leadership in charge are all current or former players which is even more disturbing that as they are charged with growing and leading this game, they are thinking of their wallets and not the future of the sport.... I guess passing the costs on to the membership never came up??? Of course it did, and you know they would if given the opportunity... shameful. I feel terrible for the Native Americans who gave us this sport as the Creator's Game, and US Lacrosse turned it into..."Who Us, We are just Lax Bro's, Chillax...??" Thanks for working for the kids Cage, it is much appreciated and if LIMLF can force a change even better!!

Good post! The thing is this, I can see both sides of this argument. I can speak intelligently on this because I have a son who is currently in 8th grade and playing on a 2017 "A" club team. He is a late November of 1999 kid. This past year was the toughest so far because this is the age where most kids are turning 14 and growing, puberty etc. The age disparity for him is compounded obviously as at some tournaments he can be up to 2 years younger than kids he is playing against. I sometimes think I did him a disservice by not holding him back. I wish I had a dollar for everyone that told me I should hold him back this year. At this point I feel like its too late and he is already established in school and with his friends. Although in my case I will not hold my son back, I can see how some people will.

15/16 yr olds as 2017's seems a little exaggerated. I get your point with the lack of fairness? Really? So when your kid is of the recruiting age, which is scary close to the 2017's, are you going to complain to the D1 coaches that it's not fair that your Johnny is 3 inches shorter and 30 lbs lighter then his peers and that he should recruit your son because that would be the fair thing to do? Give it a break and get a reality check. This past weekend my 14 yr old's 2017 team played against kids with full and really long beards that said they were 2016!!! Guess what? No one complained that it wasn't fair - they dug deep and played and won. So stop complaining and just stick to a less competitive arena if you and your son can't handle it.

There are no apple to apple comparisons anymore with regard to age. It may be youth lacrosse, but it is also a gateway to perhaps achieving a higher level of education and having more options when deciding on college. The only comparison that the college recruiters and coaches care about is that of your graduation year. And this reality has trickled down to the youth level as early recruiting has escalated. Harsh reality to the guy who keeps say it's not fair.

Wait, can't you have a 1998 birth year and still be 2017 if you were born in sept, oct, and nov in NY as the cutoff date is Dec 1?

Before you consider it crazy that 15/16 yr olds playing 2017 look at UNC lacrosse roster - do the math - at least one player would qualify having gone through MS and HS that way and is now a 21 yr old Soph.... Fair or not fair - it happens and will happen and college coaches could not care if you are a 30yr old sophomore or 16yr old Senior - if you can run by someone and score goals...they are satisfied.. If the system is "lax" enough for people to take advantage or find loopholes..people will...

The public schools will not allow you to hold your kid back for athletic reasons. If one was inclined to do so, how could it be done without moving the kid to a private school like maybe friends or greenvale? I'd like to know if anybody has been able to do this for other than academic reasons. Thanks.

If you're interested then I suggest to call the schools and see what they say.

Agree. On the younger end isn't it the bigger kids that standout? So they may be the ones picked for the more competitive teams, that may have better coaching, that play better competition, that may just get to be great players from just by being bigger when they were younger?

Wow! Just looked at UNC roster. Incredible!!! NY kids are at a huge disadvantage with regard to age. Sure puts these forum comments in perspective about the age vs grade.

Anyone holding a child back for athletic reasons is short sighted and quite frankly a bad parent. Social or academic immaturity is a valid retionale, anything else is a parent living vicariously thru their children...especially in lacrosse when a college scholarship amounts to only a few thousand dollars a year

I do know this happens for hockey and kids leave their public school and repeat their junior year in a very elite, private school with an excellent hockey team that has a good record for kids going off to division 1 hockey teams upon graduation. This is not a secret and is spoken of openly.

I have not heard of anyone doing that in lacrosse as of yet, but it would not surprise me.

I do think that teams and tournaments should police on their own if US LAx will not. I think once you hit 9th grade you can go grade level. My son is a solid 14 year old and weighs 165- friends of his weigh as much as 185 and others weigh 87. There is a huge difference at the 8th grade level.

However, I also have a son that started school late for language and maturity reasons. He does not happen to be big for his age, and is still quite immature, so would hate for him to be penalized for his age when he misses the cut off by 2 weeks and needed that extra time to develop along with his peers and not be left behind his peers to struggle each year.

You cannot have it both ways though, and even though my youngest son would be penalized and not allowed to play with his friends ( and he is not a stand out player- so he probably would not be able to make a team if he tried out with the grade up)- I think it is important to do so for the majority of the kids and their safety.

The reality is, unless your son is a physical beast no matter his age, the chances he will play D1 lacrosse are slim. Gear your kid towards getting on the field in High school and going to a good academic college. Nothing wrong with D3 lacrosse. Some of the best schools in the country are D3 and they just so happen to have great lacrosse programs. Be realistic about your child and his abilities. Raise your son to be a responsible, hard working kid and youll be amazed at the results. Lacrosse at this age should be about having fun, getting better and setting himself up for the next level, which is high school.

Public schools can't allow kids being held back for non-academic reasons for no other reason than they'd have 50 kids a year being held back if crazy parents were allowed to. That would lead to classroom overcrowding, pressure on an already crushed budget etc..Can't blame the public school administrators for telling people to send their kids to a private school if they want to do this. With the financial strains that nearly every public school is dealing with - they are not the right environment, nor is it their mandate/charter/responsibility to provide a platform to incubate better lacrosse players.

On word "Maryland"

I was not talking the Nov or Dec kids, I am talking Sept and prior players.

Dad y - has a son DOB last week sept 2001 plays 2019.
Dad x - I am not 100% certain the other childs DOB rumored to be prior to June 2001.

Dad y didn't no how to work the system
Dad x worked the system in 2nd or 3rd grade.

This is the wrong forum for this discussion. 2017s start High School in a few weeks and at that point nearly everyone agrees club teams should be grade based. Please ignore comments of rising 9th grade teams full of 16 and 17 year olds. This is simply not a reality and the statement is made in attempt to spark emotions.

US Lacrosse uses 2 year age groupings because there are simply not enough players in most of the country to field competitive single year teams. With that said, for LI and the rest of the country there are limited age problems on grade based teams with the exception of held back 7th & 5th graders who are U13 and U11 ineligible respectively. A boy would need to be held back twice to be age ineligible as an 8th or 6th grader.

For 2013-2014 academic season (Sept 1, 2013 – August 31, 2014)

U15 = anyone who is age eligible including High School students = boys born on or after Sept 1, 1998
U15 Middle School = 2018 High School grad year (8th grade) = boys born on or after Sept 1, 1998
U13(“AA” or “A”) = 2019 High School grad year (7th grade) = boys born on or after Sept 1, 2000
U13(“B”) = 2020 High School grad year (6th grade) = boys born on or after Sept 1, 2000
U11(“AA” or “A”) = 2021 High School grad year (5th grade) = boys born on or after Sept 1, 2002
U11(“B”) = 2022 High School grad year (4th grade) = boys born on or after Sept 1, 2002
U9 = 2023 High School grad year (3rd grade) = boys born on or after Sept 1, 2004

To illustrate for the soon to be completed 2012-2013 academic season (Sept 1, 2012 – August 31, 2013)

U15 = anyone who is age eligible including High School students = boys born on or after Sept 1, 1997
U15 Middle School = 2017 High School grad year (8th grade) = boys born on or after Sept 1, 1997
U13(“AA” or “A”) = 2018 High School grad year (7th grade) = boys born on or after Sept 1, 1999
U13(“B”) = 2019 High School grad year (6th grade) = boys born on or after Sept 1, 1999
U11(“AA” or “A”) = 2020 High School grad year (5th grade) = boys born on or after Sept 1, 2001
U11(“B”) = 2021 High School grad year (4th grade) = boys born on or after Sept 1, 2001
U9 = 2022 High School grad year (3rd grade) = boys born on or after Sept 1, 2003

A very high percentage of the your team is older than mine and this is why my team lost argument is made to validate to your son why his team lost without having to state the other team was simply better than you during the one hour you played against them.

I don't live in Maryland, but the obsession you NY folks have with that state and the supposed ubiquity of "older" kids per grade is beyond bizarre.

I think you are taking my comment out of context. I did not intend for someone 2017 to quit the sport because they can't compete against a 2016. All I meant is that if the goal is to play college lacrosse a young man has to understand what it takes to compete against older bigger players. If they are not willing to compete against older kids then they should modify their expectations or wait until they are more physically mature. One of the problems with youth sports is that everyone thinks it is a path to the big time. Thus they take it personally when obstacles come up. Players who are champions and can compete at high levels thrive on the challenge.

Maryland is full of kids that are held back solely for lacrosse reasons. I don't have a problem with that it just makes it sweeter when we beat them from Long Island. I was at the Jake Reed event and the best players by far were from the Island.

Did the Jesters disappear, no one talks about them any more

Not bizarre, nut job. If all tournaments go age based and verified by birth certificate, this whole argument goes away. MD teams have been doing this garbage for years... It's a fact, not an obsession. Also, to the guys who keep posting the U age brackets... Stop. The problem is in grade based tournaments, teams drop down to lowest grade on the team. (i.e. U-15 into 2017)grade repeaters and hold back teams have huge advantage. Where I come from, that's cheating, and until the sport does something about it certain teams from certain states will continue to game the system. Case closed!!!

Watch out - I think that bush behind you just moved.

You need to loosen your tin foil hat.

What grade based tournaments do your sons play where the team plays at the grade of the YOUNGEST player on the team??????? Seems like, in MD, anyway, the team has to play based on the oldest player on the squad for GRADE based tournaments.

i know a parent sending his kid to repeat the 8th grade to a prep school that cost about $40k per year....
pay me now or pay me later...

I think all tournaments should be open. No age limit. Put the best players in and filter down from there. Would be fun to watch.

That's because the best Maryland kids are already committed and don't need to be there. Jack off.

1) You are wrong, schools do not allow hold back for athletic purposes
2) I don't think a long island team beat a Maryland team this year at the high level in the 2017 year
3) LI boys were good at Jake Reed but did not stand out and only one mentioned in Inside Lacrosse article

This topic has clearly hit a sore spot with you if you feel it necessary to call someone a bad parent. And not for nothing but if you're sighting lacrosse scholarship money availability then you're missing the point. There are plenty of new D1 programs out there happy to throw money at you. For most, though, it's about getting into a school you may not otherwise get into without a supported application.