BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums MID-ATLANTIC LACROSSE MARYLAND FORUM Holdbacks

And parent coaches. Kids will be in for a shock when dad is not there to ignore their mistakes and look at everyone else's.

Yeah Mike, come on!

Mike must not have things going for him according to plan.

Cant be a young team if they've been together for 9 years.

Is this the same guy with the constant hurt feelings on the Facebook MIAA lax page?

This is why public schools don't fail kids.

Everyone is an "honor student!"

Yeah the Private schools don't have grade inflation. LOL

They do.
But there's a reason why everyone from public school have honor roll stickers on their car. Everyone makes it.
And more often than not, public school kids GPAs drop when they hit private school.

I’d like to know where you get your “more often than not” data. It sounds like a “trust me bro…” source

My son transferred from an out of state public high school to a New England boarding school this fall. He almost had a 4.0 at the public school and his grades have dropped (but are still high) a bit at the prep school. It’s just different at private/prep schools and most kids will have an adjustment period at the new school, just like they will when they enter college. There is no doubt that private/prep school curriculum is different from public schools and will take some time for students to adjust.

It's pretty well known and not controversial, but it's not about actual course material (again, see 100-300 SAT point differences....not nothing, but not huge) as much as it is about the expectations that put the "prep" in "prep school." These expectations cause the boys' grades to go bump in the night on a regular basis, especially if they are not self-starters (most aren't) on Day 1.

Off the top of my head, and this is Gilman so your mileage may vary:

1) Expectation that even in 6th-8th grade private, the student is responsible for getting copies of all notes and assignments from other students in case of a sick day. No parental or teacher involvement. Parent emails generally ignored (your mileage may vary, donors!). Students have to schedule any makeup assignments on their own.

2) Expectation that if a question or assignment is unclear, the student will contact the teacher for clarification *before the deadline.*

3) Expectations for long readings and major projects that they are basically complete 2-3 days ahead of deadline without reminders.......creates a sort-of grade inflation situation where teacher can review draft reports, presentations etc and recommend last minute changes.......expectation that student takes the input and makes last minute / late night changes as recommended.

4) No reminders period about upcoming quizzes and tests that were previously announced.

5) Expectations that the boys can describe their work or project to the class, semi-accurately, with little or no notice.

If you know anything about 12-14 year old kids, you know those things are all potential land mines for good grades until they "get with the program" which sometimes is 2nd semester, sometimes, never.

If you think PS is more selective than Private, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

And let's remember reported school SAT scores are not the same.

The public school SAT scores just include the kids that took the SATs. The low performers sat out and didn't drag down the school's scores.

The private schools require ALL of their students to take the SATs.

That's not true.

Gilman is at the top of food chain of privates except for Park, which is a bastion of intellectual twits. Most privates are much less or the same than the top classes at many better publics. Many public kids do well and go to top colleges.

And all are older than any public school kid for same grade. Does help to be a 7th grader doing 6th grader work.

I am all for private schools but I don't think SAT score is the metric you want to hang your hat on.

You could argue (I'm not) that the difference in SATs comes down to one metric: If you fail a course for the year, you are generally asked to leave the school.

I know that at Loyola, Georgetown and Severn it's rare to find a student with below a 2.7 GPA or so. And there's no coherent argument that any of those are "easier" than public school, so.....it does mean that they either screen out, coach up, or get rid of kids who can't hang academically.

At BL, most classes are Psaa/Fail only so they don't impact their GPA. Only Math, English and History are graded.

Come on Mike! Let it go!

Surprised BL gardes any subject. Their reputation is well deserved.

It should be noted that over and over again, the best pro-public school argument on this thread is "average private school kid is no better than the top 10% of public school kids" or "private school kids are no better than the top 25% of kids at gifted/talented programs at public schools."

I mean, this is probably quite accurate but it's not exactly a strong argument for public schools.

And if you think grade inflation is a private school problem only, keep on Glen Burning. In Baltimore City (yes, an extreme example, but regulated by the same state Dept of Ed as AACO and Balt County) they hand out "A's" to students who never attended a class, for a class that was never even given a classroom, for a teacher who was never hired. Which is why UMD does not accept City schools diplomas as proof of college readiness. Would not be surprised if the same declaration is coming for Alleghany, Garrett, Somerset, Wicomico.

[/quote] Gilman is at the top of food chain of privates except for Park, which is a bastion of intellectual twits. Most privates are much less or the same than the top classes at many better publics. Many public kids do well and go to top colleges.[/quote]

Sometimes it is better to be thought ignorant than to say something and prove it.

From Newsweek - as of the year 2020:

Among the schools deemed tops for science, technology, engineering and mathematics (STEM) are “high-profile institutions” in urban areas and “small but strong programs” around the United States, according to Cooper. In all cases, she said the best STEM schools have “skilled teachers who keep up with developments in these fields and who create dynamic learning environments to engage their students.”

Here are all the STEM schools in Maryland that earned a spot on the list:

Baltimore Polytechnic Institute
Baltimore
Public
STEM Rank: 36

Poolesville High School
Poolesville
Public
STEM Rank: 121

Thomas S. Wootton High School
Rockville
Public
STEM Rank: 160

Eastern Technical High School
Essex
Public
STEM Rank: 240

Holton-Arms School
Bethesda
Public
STEM Rank: 243

Centennial High School
Ellicott City
Public
STEM Rank: 268

Winston Churchill High School
Potomac
Public
STEM Rank: 282

River Hill High School
Clarksville
Public
STEM Rank: 290

Towson High School
Towson
Public
STEM Rank: 310

Gilman School
Baltimore
Private
STEM Rank: 312

Marriotts Ridge High School
Marriottsville
Public
STEM Rank: 412

The Bryn Mawr School
Baltimore
Private
STEM Rank: 412

Walt Whitman High School
Bethesda
Public
STEM Rank: 419

Urbana High School
Ijamsville
Public
STEM Rank: 445

McDonogh School
Owings Mills
Private
STEM Rank: 459

If you believe this, please send your kid to Poly or Eastern Tech.
Just be careful leaving your STEM classroom, going to your locker, eating in the cafeteria, or walking the halls.

Again, the private vs public school standards are just very different questions. Nobody is sending their kid to McD to be a County health inspector.

Let's look at the college attendance from Poly, at the top of your list:

1) Morgan State
2) UMD (UMCP)
3) Towson U

So let's compare fairly - Nobody is sending their kid to Gilman or McD to attend Morgan State or Towson unless it's on some kind of full ride. They *might* be sending their private school kid to UMCP on less-than-full scholarship, because the kid, with his "equal to the top 10% of public" basic-ness, could not get scholarships to Georgetown, ND, Boston College, etc, and if his parents have any sense, they send him to UMCP which is an outstanding college for any private or public school kid, at 1/3 the cost of an elite private college, the equivalent network of which they already purchased during HS.

“Let’s compare fairly” is certainly the most ironic and tone deaf statement I think I’ve heard when talking about private wealthy schools on a lacrosse message board transposed to free public education.

UMD has a larger Gilman alum presence than any other school. Your point doesn’t make any sense.

Then explain why you decided to write what you did ? Might want to understand these words, Self Awareness.

It's as ridiculous and delusional as the people who want to believe public schools are even remotely on the same level academically as privates.

You should check your facts. Students are not REQUIRED to take SATs unless the schools they are applying to require them, whether they go to a public or private high school. There are quite a few in my son’s private school class who did not take them because the universities they were applying to no longer require them for admissions.

It totally made sense.

The issue is some programs at some publics are at a minimum academically on par and in many cases superior.

Across the board paying 140k for high school should get you a better education that paying nothing.

However it’s not a blanket statement to say that all of one is better (or inferior) to all of another. I know parents need to justify paying the tuition for 14 years but the facts are what they are.

You can get a good education and get admitted to a fine college from certain publics and certain privates. It’s all good.

What , That you are looking for some ?

I'm fine with my on age kid playing against holdbacks. Good players play up, not down. Simple way to solve the holdback issue, and it doesn't take reform from U.S. Lacrosse, just a little transparency from HoCo.
Every HoCo team should have to submit a roster that includes birthdates of each player. Post that info - no names identifying kids - just the D.OB. and zip code for each player on the team on the HoCo web site. Then everyone would see what teams are really 'elite' and what teams are just stacking their rosters with holdbacks and double holdbacks.
I do think it is a safety issue when certain clubs with anger issues use 5th graders against 3rd graders. Publicly posting D.OB. info would be a free, easy, no cost way to at least level the factual playing field.

Why would HoCO let people know that their league was unsafe for kids?

Second sentence = facts!

Who is dad gonna impress at the water cooler if his kid is on age and average. Remember what this is all about. Feeding parents egos. Get with the program.

holdback discussion infinite loop:

Parents of on age kids who aren’t quite good enough to start but can play at the elite level against holdbacks—>>> moderately complain but understand that’s the way it is and generally keep it moving.

Parents of on age kids who are able to play and start against holdbacks —>> also understand it stinks but it’s generally realize in 4 years their sons will be a level above the holdbacks anyway.

Parents of holdbacks who are killing it at the elite level —>> hit the wall, play soccer, check the rankings we rule!

Parents of holdbacks who are riding the bench —>> generally silent as they quietly know their sons are going to constantly stay on the bubble to be cut every season from here on out.

Parents of AAA kids who are hovering around elite - generally the most vitriol. Feels that if there were no holdbacks taking their kids place theyd be where they want to be. This crew is TOXIC.

Parents of on age kids who are not very good at all —>> usually the loudest and somehow equate other older kids as being the reason their son isn’t a better player. That has nothing to do with anything but when your looking for an excuse - blame holdbacks.

Parents of kids playing and contributing somewhere around AA ball —>> generally seem to have the most fun just watching their sons play where they are.

Good summary. Fortunately my kid is in the category of on-age and undersized but still competes at the elite level versus holdbacks. These types of kids have tone of upside once they hit puberty.

Ok, there is a reason people hold back!!! Look at the College players. How many of the top players in college now in the top 10 colleges were “holdbacks” back when?

You sound like a holdback parent, trying to rationalize it as the “non holdback” parents that are the real problem!? Youth lacrosse needs to address the holdback issue! Period!!