BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums NORTHEAST LACROSSE BOTC MAIN FORUM (LI, CT, WC) 2019-2020 Women's DI, II & III College Lacrosse Season

You really are on the slow end of the scale. It’s difficult to try and understand your point .”The girls that were at the school for 3.5 years .....,” what are babbling about . If a girl has been at a school waiting to play for 3.5 years and now won’t has nothing to do with seniors returning .

Sorry, I think you’re naive about this. Both coaches and players are not acting for the greater good or the interest of the player. Looking at the trends in both the men’s and women’s lacrosse programs, these are all merely business decisions. Coaches are picking players on their own rosters or from elsewhere SOLELY on the basis of whether that player can help him/her win more games. That’s why no role players appear on any list. Meanwhile, players are staying at their schools or transferring elsewhere for their own personal reasons. Based on the large number of transfers that many schools are accepting, there is no loyalty to the school on either side. It’s just like professional sports, and the NCAA has empowered seniors (at least those good enough to be coveted) to be free agents.

The only possible exception is Syracuse. But if Gary Gait feels that this year’s entire senior class deserves to play another year, then his entire junior class deserves the same treatment next year; since they won’t truly be seniors next year having sat behind this year’s seniors again. And by extension, he should keep all of his sophomores in 2 years, and his freshmen in 3 years. We’ll see if that happens.

It is correct that players can start to make money for there likeness starting spring 2021? So if top players mentioned above want to sign a deal with Nike Or STX they can? From what I read this is true as long as no college name or branding? Can they use STX or Nike sticks if they want to versus what the school may use based on an agreement?

Does anybody have any detailed knowledge on this rule?

Didn't Syracuse just bump up tuition by 10 K?

As usual the Quote button would have helped but I think you might be the slow one if you couldn't follow along. The poster you replied to was responding to the quote below, saying the girls who "have given 3.5 years to the program" are not being loyal to that program if they are transferring somewhere else. And pretty sure he/she meant that some of the players who were at a particular school for 3.5 years waiting to play will be losing that playing time to the 5th year seniors who are transferring in.

"In the end there was going to be some unhappy players out there. The coaches wanted to do the right thing for their seniors and so did the ADs as these kids have given 3.5 years of their lives to the program and school while your high school player has given them nothing and may wash out .I commend their decision to stay loyal to the players that have stayed loyal to them."

Syracuse tuition was increased by $421 from last year.

"For academic year 2019-2020, undergraduate tuition & fees at Syracuse University is $53,849"

"2020-2021 Cost of Attendance of Students Enrolled after Fall 2018
Direct (billable) costs
Tuition $54,270"

Here you go again with your inane and offensive remarks. Of course, nothing you have posted has turned out to be accurate.

Let's look at the list of girls (that we know of) who have transferred or stayed for their 5th year of eligibility for next year.

UNC: Kerrigan Miller (USC), Katie Hoeg
Syracuse: Emily Hawryschuk, [ChillLaxin] Goldstock
Duke: Gabby Rosenzweig (Penn)
Ohio State: Kelsey Reed (JMU), Mary Kate Bonanni (Cornell)
Northwestern: Sammy Mueller (Virginia)
Michigan: Quinn Melidona
Penn State: Maria Auth
Georgetown: Natalia Lynch
Loyola: Holly Lloyd, Meaghan Quinn
Stony Brook: Katie Huff (USC), Ally Kennedy, Kylie Ohlmiller

What do all of these girls have in common? They were all the best players on their teams this spring. Many were pre-season 2020 All-American candidates or were All-Americans last year. Even a great player like Caroline DeBellis (entering freshman) is probably going to lose playing time next year to Gabby Rosenzweig at Duke.

This probably doesn't matter to your daughter for 1 of 2 reasons.
1. Your daughter is All-American caliber already.
2. Your daughter plays for a non-competitive program where players are unlikely to stay an extra year or transfer there.

My guess is #2.
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Stop being so dramatic and blaming these returning 5th years for all your issues. First off non of those programs are closing because seniors are coming back. It will have little impact on the 2020 class other than some getting less playing time . It will impact the 2022 -2023 class the most but honestly if your kid wants to play in college there is a spot for them. I have not heard of it but will be interesting to see if any college coaches decrease their offers to some of the 2021 players as they have not signed a NLI.
In the end there was going to be some unhappy players out there. The coaches wanted to do the right thing for their seniors and so did the ADs as these kids have given 3.5 years of their lives to the program and school while your high school player has given them nothing and may wash out .I commend their decision to stay loyal to the players that have stayed loyal to them.[/quote]

Except that whole coach and player loyalty goes out the window with the transfers.
[/quote]

No ,actually it makes it shows the coaches and ADs have more of a commitment to do the right thing for these seniors who have given all they have for their schools and programs . They supported what was in the best interest of their players even if those players decide to transfer .[/quote]

Sorry, I think you’re naive about this. Both coaches and players are not acting for the greater good or the interest of the player. Looking at the trends in both the men’s and women’s lacrosse programs, these are all merely business decisions. Coaches are picking players on their own rosters or from elsewhere SOLELY on the basis of whether that player can help him/her win more games. That’s why no role players appear on any list. Meanwhile, players are staying at their schools or transferring elsewhere for their own personal reasons. Based on the large number of transfers that many schools are accepting, there is no loyalty to the school on either side. It’s just like professional sports, and the NCAA has empowered seniors (at least those good enough to be coveted) to be free agents.

The only possible exception is Syracuse. But if Gary Gait feels that this year’s entire senior class deserves to play another year, then his entire junior class deserves the same treatment next year; since they won’t truly be seniors next year having sat behind this year’s seniors again. And by extension, he should keep all of his sophomores in 2 years, and his freshmen in 3 years. We’ll see if that happens.[/quote]


Actually you are the one being naive or ill-informed . First off the lists you are seeing are who inside lacrosse picks to highlight so of course it will be the impact players. The schools I know of have said to their seniors that they are all welcome to return but the financial end of it is up the the school administration. The vast majority of the programs have coaches who have been extremely loyal to their seniors inviting them back even when not a starter ,Cuse is more the normal than the exception in this regard.

Ok, I stand corrected; but give us some examples where the coach really invited everyone back on the team.

Simply put, they should allow every girl 3.5 years going forward. That would be fair. If it’s okay for Senior to Freshman get 3.5, it should be fine for all the incoming players....right?

Everyone getting 3.5 years, that's fine with me. Sign me up.

USC, UNC, UVA, ND, PSU , Cuse, MD to name a few. Ivies no but that is a conference decision not coaches . I have not heard of any schools who have offered the 5th year to some seniors but not others , maybe let’s hear about those.

USC: haven't heard anything other than the team losing 2 seniors to other teams.
UNC: Katie Hoeg (#1 player on team), Kerrigan Miller (transfer from USC- 2nd team All-American).
UVA: no info
Notre Dame: no info
Penn State: Maria Auth (#1 player on team)- reported by team statement. Nothing about other players.
Syracuse: returning 10 of 11 seniors. Team roster size for next year is 45 players. Great for seniors, but not sure how the rest of the team feels about this. If this is a one time event, Syracuse class of 2021 players never get a chance to be the leaders of the team.
Maryland: no info

Georgetown: Natalia Lynch (#1 player on team) - reported by team. Nothing about other players
Virginia Tech: Angie Benson, Taylor Caskey, Kendall Welch, Mary Clare McCarthy (top 4 of 7 seniors, all starters, but remaining 3 seniors who aren't coming back never started a game)
Ohio State: Kelsey Reed (JMU), Mary Kate Bonanni (Cornell). no mention yet of current players staying.
Northwestern: Sammy Mueller (transfer from Virginia- 2nd team All-American). no mention yet of current players staying.
U Conn: Alyssa Conklin (team captain, defender)
Loyola: Holly Lloyd (starter attack), Meaghan Quinn (starter, defender). Took 2 of 3 seniors. The senior who isn't returning never started a game.
Stony Brook: Ally Kennedy (#1 player on team), Kylie Ohlmiller (#2 player on team). Kaeli Huff (transfer from USC- starter #5 on team)
Duke: Gabby Rosenzweig (transfer from Penn- honorable mention All-American) no mention yet of current players staying.

Of course, the information is limited and incomplete. But so far, it doesn't look very egalitarian to me.
What specific news have you heard?

What your missing here is if anyone was not asked back or told not to come back. The fact that seniors elected to graduate does not mean they were not more than welcome to return. Find me those examples...

You cannot be this dense. Of course the players who were on the field the most are more likely to elect to come back for a fifth year than a player who did not play as much. You are also more likely to hear about the impact players coming back than some of the others . You were given a list of 7 teams in which all seniors were given the option to return and chose to ignore it . Again you cannot name one team where only some seniors were asked to return while others were not .i have spoken with many parents of players on teams and all have stated that all seniors were told they can return if they elect to do so , some programs have told them they will fund their existing scholarship others have said no scholarship . Not sure of what your motivation is to try and make all these coaches seem as if they don’t develop a relationship with their players and only care about winning but it’s just not the case .

So, if the coaches were so concerned with their player relationships and didn't care about winning, why bring in big time transfers?

We all know that in college sports that when a coach tells a prospect that he wants her to join the team, that doesn’t necessarily mean that he actually means it.
So when a coach tells the entire senior class that he wants them to stay, it also doesn’t necessarily mean that he means everyone..

For a lot of practical reasons, it doesn’t make a lot of sense for a coach to take back an entire senior class next year like Syracuse, let alone for the next 4 years.

Your list of schools where coaches have invited all of their seniors to return (USC, UNC, UVA, ND, PSU, Syracuse) is completely unsubstantiated and proves nothing. Except for Syracuse, almost no players from your list have even announced they will be coming back.

The fact that so many players have already transferred to other schools and no reserve players have announced they are staying next year is a stronger argument that many coaches are NOT inviting their entire senior class back.

That’s the best you got . Where did anyone say they don’t care about winning ? The coaches voiced their opinion in regard to bringing the seniors back,the vast majority of them in favor of allowing the 5th year. From the coaches point of view it makes their jobs more difficult but they realized it was in the best interest of the seniors to give them the option. As far as the big time transfers I am sure the coaches that had players leave wanted them back but again allowing 5th year transfers to occur was again in the players best interests . As far as the coaches who have a transfer coming in I assume you feel playing time should be equal for all players but that’s just not the way life or collegiate sports work , teams bring in transfers every year.

Not sure of what your motivation is to try and make all these coaches seem as if they don’t develop a relationship with their players and only care about winning but it’s just not the case .

That’s the best you got . Where did anyone say they don’t care about winning ? The coaches voiced their opinion in regard to bringing the seniors back,the vast majority of them in favor of allowing the 5th year. From the coaches point of view it makes their jobs more difficult but they realized it was in the best interest of the seniors to give them the option. As far as the big time transfers I am sure the coaches that had players leave wanted them back but again allowing 5th year transfers to occur was again in the players best interests . As far as the coaches who have a transfer coming in I assume you feel playing time should be equal for all players but that’s just not the way life or collegiate sports work , teams bring in transfers every year.
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Life and collegiate sports seem pretty dam fair to the Seniors this year, no?

Yes not being able to finish their senior year both on the field or in the classroom ,no graduation, no saying good buy to so many friends in person seems real fair. Yes getting a 5th year helps but its like saying the player who blows out their knee just prior to the first game senior year seems fair not to allow a redshirt year.

Lot of moving around of the goalposts...You would make a great politician with all the babbling of nonsense.

Don't understand the logic.
1. If you want to support your current seniors, you give them ALL of an option of taking the extra year and wait for them to respond. You are effectively constrained from looking for 5th year transfers because your roster may be 25% bigger next year (like Syracuse with 45 players next year), so there isn't any room for extra players. How many college ADs in this current environment are OK with expanding rosters of non-revenue sports teams by 25%? How many college ADs are OK with expanding the lacrosse roster by even 1 additional player for next year?

2. If you want to win, you keep your current seniors who are impact players as well as simultaneously recruiting impact players from other programs. You have to start recruiting transfers almost immediately. Top talent isn't easy to recruit, and they quickly find new homes if they want to transfer to a new school. For example, the men's lacrosse transfer market has already taken most of the top names 5th year seniors off the board within the first month that the NCAA announced 5th year eligibility. You keep very few role playing seniors on your team because their presence inhibits your ability to groom your team's young talent who coming up from behind.

Not sure how you do both effectively.

NCAA meeting today, lets see if they right the wrong or continue to dig a bigger hole

[quote=Anonymous]NCAA meeting today, lets see if they right the wrong or continue to dig a bigger hole[/quo
the dead period will be extended through July, there will be no adjustments to the extra year issue

Life and collegiate sports seem pretty dam fair to the Seniors this year, no?


Yes not being able to finish their senior year both on the field or in the classroom ,no graduation, no saying good buy to so many friends in person seems real fair. Yes getting a 5th year helps but its like saying the player who blows out their knee just prior to the first game senior year seems fair not to allow a redshirt year.


Lot of moving around of the goalposts...You would make a great politician with all the babbling of nonsense.

You must be really slow, for you to say that life and collegiate sports were pretty dam fair for anyone especially the seniors shows your complete ignorance of what is going on during this pandemic. Lives, the job market, etc have been devastated. Get a clue.

Exactly, 100k dead and 40 million lost jobs...and these seniors get and extra year...If you tell me they are not the lucky ones, you are the slow and clueless one...if your going to reply make it a short and direct comment...save the nonsense longwinded blah blah blah.

It’s not their fault that your high school age kid is not good enough for college coaches to think she is worth the chance . The coaches , AD’s felt these young women deserved another year. You can only be happy if everyone is miserable, stinks for you , just going to get worse for you when these 5th years return and you get to watch your kid sit on the bench or be ignored by the college coaches. I can’t wait .

You shouldn't gloat about your college daughter's relative good fortune. If there is no meaningful college football season this year, she could unfortunately end up in the same position as everyone else.

https://ivyleague.com/news/2020/7/8...ans-no-competition-in-fall-semester.aspx

Also seems like schools with billions in endowments have decided not to spend it on their sports programs.

https://news.stanford.edu/2020/07/08/athletics/
https://www.browndailyherald.com/2020/05/28/brown-transitions-11-varsity-teams-to-club-status/

It's looking like NCAA Spring sports is a 50/50 proposition right now. Do the schools extend another year in the event Spring sports are also cancelled?

Its gotta be a no on the 2nd extra year. I have to believe that there might be a little regret by the NCAA in granting the extra year the first time around, if this is now impacting football & Soccer and then basketball again.

It was a really dense idea for the NCAA to grant spring sport athletes from all 4 classes an extra year of eligibility because they missed a majority of their season. By their logic, all of the fall sports athletes now deserve an extra year for missing their season, too And if there is no spring season next year, the same lacrosse players who gained an extra year in April should be able to stockpile a 2nd year of eligibility. How about 3 more years if the cycle repeats itself in 2022? When does this madness stop?

It was a really dense idea for the NCAA to grant spring sport athletes from all 4 classes an extra year of eligibility because they missed a majority of their season. By their logic, all of the fall sports athletes now deserve an extra year for missing their season, too And if there is no spring season next year, the same lacrosse players who gained an extra year in April should be able to stockpile a 2nd year of eligibility. How about 3 more years if the cycle repeats itself in 2022? When does this madness stop?

Going to guess that your kid wasn't impacted by this. Typical

It should have been seniors only, no reason a freshman,soph or juniors needed to have a year tacked on.. it was a mistake and these repercussions are now going to be felt through all D-1 sports. it was a move based on emotion last year. it needs to be fixed now.

Im interested to know how missing the final 8 games last year impacted your daughter? was she a senior? was she tournament bound? or a freshman now scheming on which school to transfer to 4 years from now..

And before you say it didn't impact my daughter it did.. she was a senior on a mid level D-1 team hoping to make their conference playoff.. which is their goal every year. She chose not to stay and recently got a job in her field of study. Only 2 of 8 graduating seniors chose to stay, the rest moved on.. by the way they still haven't had a graduation ceremony and her diploma came in the mail

You must be the guy who went to the grocery store at the beginning of the pandemic to buy up all of the toilet paper because you were running low; and you didn't think twice that it would be a good idea to leave some behind to allow others to buy some, too.

Not the poster, but I did have an underclass daughter who definitely was effected by missing the final 8- 10 games. Injured early on and had a chance to redshirt but chose to work hard with the chance that she would be able to make it back. She did only to have her first game back and the rest of the season cancelled. So yes , all players could have been effected by the cancellation and are deserving of the extra year.

I do not have a problem with anyone's opinion on the matter. What I have an issue with is the parents of HS sophomores who some how feel that this is unfair to their daughter who has not even scratched the surface of work done by any of these college athletes. My advice to them would be to help their daughter get recruited, get the HS grades required, make a commitment , sign a NLI, get accepted, compete and get the grades to remain on the team before complaining about what they are entitled to.

I do not have a problem with anyone's opinion on the matter. What I have an issue with is the parents of HS sophomores who some how feel that this is unfair to their daughter who has not even scratched the surface of work done by any of these college athletes. My advice to them would be to help their daughter get recruited, get the HS grades required, make a commitment , sign a NLI, get accepted, compete and get the grades to remain on the team before complaining about what they are entitled to.[/quote]

No one is entitled to anything, including your daughter who lost 8 games out of her 4 year career. The problem is the sophomores who you think aren’t deserving of anything won’t have a chance to see if they can get recruited, get the HS grades required, make a commitment , sign a NLI, get accepted, compete and get the grades to remain on the team because the NCAA effectively told them they aren’t needed because we just gonna keep 4 years worth of current college players... oh and feel free to transfer all around so that all the AA,s end up on UNC or Duke..the NCAA are making a mockery of themselves, admit your error and make it right.

Did not say she was entitled, said she was effected . If those HS sophs. Continue to progress from potential player to Student Athlete they will have plenty of opportunities to compete for roster spots, playing time and scholarship money. Daughters team graduated 6 and only bought back 1. That is probably about the norm for 5th yr seniors on most teams in any given year.