BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums NORTHEAST LACROSSE BOTC MAIN FORUM (LI, CT, WC) Girls 2021-11th Grade Fall 2019/Summer 2020

I do believe the point was that there are some who will commit to a top 20 but not see the field, while others who could commit to a top 20 choose a lower ranked team for various reasons. [/quote]

There it is again, the negative, the knock, the attempt to diminish that has been prevalent on this site for years. Some will always try to elevate their daughters status by trying to diminish the accomplishments / accolades / achievements of others. [/quote]

You're being dramatic. Every year the lists of top ranked commits and current players include some girls from programs who are not in the top 5-10 year after year after year. Isn't it diminishing the accomplishments of those players when you won't acknowledge they are as good or better than some players on higher ranked teams?[/quote]

How is it diminishing the players if they are ranked? The fact that the players are ranked is acknowledging them.[/quote]

It's diminishing when some parents will still claim those players are not truly among the best if committed to or playing for a school outside the perennial top 5-10 programs. Those same parents accuse anyone who points out top players sometimes commit to and play for programs outside the top 10 as knocking others to elevate their own daughter.

Assume at this point any uncommitted 21s are on hold until Summer. Can't imagine there will be too much movement during season.

IMO 75% of the ranked Top players playing on the Top D1 programs are legit and 25% are a function of making lists through politics, High School attended, coaches doing favors for players and other coaches, club team name only, legacy name, etc.

I would guess that the same ratio applies to these players having excellent college careers versus so-so careers (75% great/25% so-so). So many kids on these lists quickly find out that everybody on a Top 20 team can play, are athletic and they can't hide behind anything or get phony PR. As freshmen, they come in highly anticipated and ranked because of these lists only to find out at practice and in games that they are average.

Most ongoing successful college coaches in Top 20 recruit off of intuition, experience, need and team philosophy, not just lists. This is why they have sustained success and Top D1 ranking, if they recruited off of the Top player beauty pageants exclusively they will fail. I have seen this through many many years of observation.

Not sure if I agree that people can’t see past kids committing to lower programs. My daughter had a choice to play pretty much anywhere she wanted, but had zero interest in going to MD or UNC. Then to put this into perspective, the two top players from LI from this years graduating class both committed to lower end programs (outside top 10), yet they are still considered the top players. One went to Duke, a team in and out of top 20, never seeming to be a threat. The other committed to BC. So yes BC saw three years of top 1-10 status, thanks to the three players who just graduated. But that kid committed there before BC had their run, they were about as relevant as Duke, in and out of the top 20. So the point is, no one questioned these were the top kids on the island, even though they committed to schools that were not (at the time) in the top 5-10 programs in D1. And to the other end of the topic, you see kids committing to the very top programs that are certainly not the top kids on LI, some are, but certainly not all.

There it is again, the negative, the knock, the attempt to diminish that has been prevalent on this site for years. Some will always try to elevate their daughters status by trying to diminish the accomplishments / accolades / achievements of others. [/quote]

You're being dramatic. Every year the lists of top ranked commits and current players include some girls from programs who are not in the top 5-10 year after year after year. Isn't it diminishing the accomplishments of those players when you won't acknowledge they are as good or better than some players on higher ranked teams?[/quote]

How is it diminishing the players if they are ranked? The fact that the players are ranked is acknowledging them.[/quote]

It's diminishing when some parents will still claim those players are not truly among the best if committed to or playing for a school outside the perennial top 5-10 programs. Those same parents accuse anyone who points out top players sometimes commit to and play for programs outside the top 10 as knocking others to elevate their own daughter. [/quote]
not only are these parents trying to elevate their daughter's but more importantly elevate themselves. These are the same parents that live through their kids because they couldn't get it done on the field when they were young.

We can all agree the 2021 age group overall is a weak Long Island class.

What "lists" are you referring to? Who are you referring to when you say "ranked top players"?

IMHO and I have been following pretty closely since the HS graduating Class of 2014 the "Inside Lacrosse Young Gun Senior Top 30 Ranking (Now Top 50) and the Under Armour Senior All-Americans are legit lists.

You say:

"So many kids on these lists quickly find out that everybody on a Top 20 team can play, are athletic and they can't hide behind anything or get phony PR. As freshmen, they come in highly anticipated and ranked because of these lists only to find out at practice and in games that they are average."

First of all, there are not "so many kids on the list", they originally ranked only 30 players. You state that "so many" find out that they are "average". Do you really think that a player named to the IL Top 30 List is "Average"? C'mon man... The player might be "Average" at Maryland, Carolina or BC but that same player would most likely be a standout at Marist, Cornell or BU.

As for the statement:

"Most ongoing successful college coaches in Top 20 recruit off of intuition, experience, need and team philosophy, not just lists."

I do not believe that any of the most successful coaches recruit off of lists. However, I do believe that for the most part, people who know what they are looking at will identify many of the same players as being the "top talent".

I am not sure about your 75 / 25 assumption or how you define "great" or "so so" but IMHO you are trying to say that 25% of the players listed are only on the list due to something other than talent. In addition, you think that 25% are "average" players. I guess that you are implying that many players who are not recognized on the "Top Player Rankings" and who play for programs not traditionally in the Top 20 are actually better than the players that are listed on "the lists" and are playing for the Top Programs.

I believe the reality to be far different from your opinion.

Looking at the HS graduating class of 2015 it looks like more than 90% (27 or 28) of the "IL Top 30 Young Gun Seniors" had very good college careers. For the most part, the "ranked" players went to the "Traditional Top 20" programs and they do very well.

The reality is that there are not a lot of "non ranked" players who go to "non traditional top 20" programs that are better than a lot of players at the top programs. For example.... There are not many players at New Hampshire that are stronger than the players at Northwestern. Just the way it is...

Yes! I know exactly what you’re talking about. It currying favor from clubs and schools. The club girl may show up in This years top freshman 9 or 10 but next year she will be gone from the team. It happened just this year with a top four team!
Also schools may send prospects/ recruits/committed southern/western girls to clubs (at least in Baltimore) so they can cut their teeth with more competitive club play

What in the world are you talking about? Are you responding to a post?

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Some schools work with clubs for players.
Some clubs work with schools for players
They go above and beyond recruiting. Nothing illegal but there is some back-scratching.

Agree 100% and see it more in girls than boys recruiting.

Seems like coaching "friendships" and historical club to team recruiting helps with lesser talented players.

I guess this makes sense just like in business you typically work with people you know and with companies you trust and have done a good job in the past.

So true. It's about relationships and trust. What D1 schools still have spots? Any top 50? I am still getting so many invites to camps and clinics but dont know which to go to.

google RPI for 2018-2019 season....you will see teams outside of top 30 ..31 thru 81 can go up or down the list by 50 spots each season ....the top 30 and bottom 30 are pretty consistent ...middle 50 change from year to year ...pick an academic school that is a modest stretch for your kid and email coach to see if any spots available ? Then go to school on campus camps and clinics >>>good luck !

Tend to agree but would say the Top 20 - 25 pretty much stay the same not top 30.... Below is last years final RPI Top 30... Some anomalies... Hofstra, High Point, Wagner, Jacksonville, Richmond..(a number of other schools could fill those spots this year) But the other 25 will be there again, they are pretty much the top 25 programs.
For the most part the other 25 will not only be in the Top 25 RPI but they will be the Top 25 in all the rankings / polls. Navy has become a regular, Denver is for real and Michigan will consistantly be in the mix going forward. Obviously it is very challenging to get an offer from the top programs but there is a tremendous amount of opportunity as you go down in the rankings and there are many excellent schools to play at. This sport provides more opportunity than any other.

1 Maryland
2 Boston College
3 North Carolina
4 Northwestern
5 Princeton
6 Syracuse
7 Virginia
8 Florida
9 Denver
10 Michigan
11 Southern California
12 Loyola
13 Navy
14 Notre Dame
15 Stony Brook
16 James Madison
17 Penn State
18 Penn
19 Colorado
20 Johns Hopkins
21 Dartmouth
22 Massachusetts
23 Richmond
24 Georgetown
25 Stanford
26 Jacksonville
27 Wagner
28 Duke
29 High Point
30 Hofstra

The schools are still sending out camp invites to their mailing lists. You need to talk to the coaches directly to see if they're still looking at 2021s. The answer from top 30 schools will most likely be no at this point but you never know.

Why give out false hope? Top 50 is 99% done.

My point is regarding RPI ranking changing dramatically outside the usual top 30 teams

2018 RPI 2019 RPI
Yale 32 Yale 75
UDEL 33 UDEL 73
Uconn 42 Uconn 77
Siena 100 Siena 56
Bing 67 Bing 107
Lehigh 29 Lehigh 54

just to name a few ...point is don't get hung up on top 50 programs being done with recruiting ...a current 32 ranked team can be a 75 ranked team in a year or vice versa ...

2020 class was heavily recruited and 2021 class will be lightly recruited. Recruiting is close to done at most top 50, maybe some schools have 1 spot max.

There are really only about 15 maybe 20 programs that are consistently in the Top 20 with a handful of others on the cusp... after those programs it is a garbage shoot in terms of where the team will finish each year in the RPI Rankings so I would not give a teams RPI a second thought.


The programs that always seem to finish the year in the Top 20 are:

Maryland
North Carolina
Northwestern
Syracuse
Virginia
Princeton
Penn
Florida
Notre Dame
Stony Brook
Boston College
Penn State

The above are the most consistent programs.

Next I would put:

Duke
Loyola
USC
Stanford
Hopkins
Georgetown
Navy
JMU

I think Michigan will become a regular Top 20 Team going forward. Denver has a very good program and UMass quietly finishes in the Top 20 on a regular basis. Dartmouth is tough as well.

Tremendous opportunity out there, many excellent schools beyond the top programs. Don't get caught up... a lot of opportunity in DII and DIII as well.

It's going to be rough for the 21s who are not committed if the summer season is cancelled.

If this thing keeps getting worse.. not going to college might not be the biggest problem we'll face

It's going to be tough for 22's more so than 21's. The 21's that aren't committed yet were going to struggle to find anything other than D3 options anyway.

Anyone have thoughts on how the NESCAC and other high academic D3 schools will handle recruiting for the 21 class if the summer club season does not play out ?

Most of the high academic schools are working their lists now. My daughter has been on some visits this winter and spring. All say they can't or won't offer spots until they see junior grades. Some have made it clear (without an actual promise yes I know) that she has a spot if she wants it come July. Assuming grades and test scores hold up. Others have been less concrete, saying they like her a lot but since they can't offer spots til July anyway, they will watch HS and Summer games, and late spring camps. Now that HS games are all on hold and seasons may be cancelled, I guess it depends on how much they saw of a kid before the shutdown. If they had a good look in the fall or last summer, or at a camp early this spring, they may not need another look. I imagine it will be tougher for kids who are just emailing D3 coaches fresh at this point. But a lot of these schools were still filling in spots in the 2020 class this winter, so like everyone else, what the heck do I know?

Also, I bet spots (some, not a ton) may open at a lot of programs. Girls who have committed far from home may decommit if COVID19 ends up affecting their families. A season or a year without lacrosse may lead some girls and families to prioritize other things. Some may not miss it that much.

Committed 21's, are you hearing anything from your college coaches about relief with regard to standardized testing?

My suggestion is to have your daughter contact with the coaches. My daughter had it narrowed down to 2, but this put the breaks on everything. The coaches have been very helpful guiding her through the new challenges, and understand that everyone is in the same boat.
And the poster above is correct, all the high academic schools wait until the end of junior year for grades and test scores before they get serious with you. If your daughter didn't take the SAT/ACT in the fall or early winter, some of the schools will be "test optional". But I don't know if they are just saying that. My daughter took tests in the fall, and was preparing to take them again in the spring.
My advice is to have your daughter email/text the coaches and set up a phone call. They will guide her in what they want. They all got back to her the same day because they are home anyway.

Love the BOTC all YJ team.

Good so do we! If your daughter deserved to be there she would be. Obviously she does not!

Actually, she is! Now what you say?

What r you two babbling about

Don’t be a stunad , those lists are ridiculous. Some girls really deserve to be on it, but some have no business on it.

I assume it's the Nassau and Suffolk all-BOTC teams listed under the Blogs.

It is all up in the air, and will be dependent on what the individual admissions departments do in regards to new policies for regular admissions, the colleges will have some big decisions to make at institutional levels and it will trickle down to athletics admissions after that. If your daughter is committed have her discuss this with her coach (most coaches have been contacting their commits in the last month or so during this crisis). If she isn't committed look into the regular admission policy changes at the schools she is interested in, and use that to guide you. Best of luck!

Just curious if anyone has had their daughter's coach contact them yet with specific information regarding their scholarship offer or status. My daughter is committed to a D1 school, but other than a "hope you're staying safe" text, we've heard nothing concrete and aren't really sure if we are supposed to.

same, arent really sure if we should be asking any questions or just wait and see.

Send a note if you need to, but dont be a nudge..

I shouldnt have to day this but it should be from the player.. not the parent.

At this point it's best to wait and let the dust settle. Each school and athletic department are handling things differently. The coaches are still trying to figure out what's going to happen with their current rosters. A text or email to say "hi" is fine, but the 2021s aren't the priority right now. They'll reach out to everyone in due time.

The coaches are more concerned with the appeals that nearly ever single college athletic department has sent in to the NCAA, looking to cut the number of headcount sports so they can cut the budget. Football and basketball are obviously safe. If NCAA allows this, women’s lacrosse is not safe at all. Without a doubt, this is a valid consideration that the NCAA may definitely consider. Drastic measures will be coming down the pipes, government, economic, businesses, schools etc.... certain sports may survive this, other likely will not. That’s what the coaches of these sports are worrying about.

Look into women’s BB, UConn women’s hoops lost over 3m last year and they have been top program and have loyal following.

Some 21s will be in trouble. Kids at MAAC and Patriot league schools and coached emailed daughter and said few kids looking to transfer to Patriot school. Coach said existing kids might have to tryout and scholarship money may be altered.