BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums NORTHEAST LACROSSE BOTC MAIN FORUM (LI, CT, WC) Girls 2021-11th Grade Fall 2019/Summer 2020

My daughter plays club in Baltimore. She is a 23.
Ive noticed that many college's/uni’s are having small day camps/clinics right before the season starts.
Are they looking at 23’s at this point? She hasnt even played high school yet and I’ve done a few camps last summer and fall where even I knew we were “too early”. I was thinking with the 20’s and some of the 21’s out of the way there’d be more eyes for the 23’s.
Our club coach said that this summer and maybe these spring clinics is where we could start in earnest.
Some of the clinics we could swing bc they’re local and not too $$$ bc it’s just a few hours.

No of course not!
Make a list of schools that have recruited her position in order to determine what’s still “open”.
Nothing is done until nli’s are signed
Make sure she knows there is a lid for every pot

No, they will not be looking at 23's. I have found that the 22's really were not looked at until mid-fall (and even then some schools were still figuring out 21's) and this is all D1 - D3 would be later in the process. Having said that, there is nothing wrong with going and getting the vibe and experience of playing and seeing what the process is like. I think there is value in that, i just wouldn't go crazy with time and money.

I have a 2022 and have been reading along to get an idea how things work. When people reference “mid tier” or “top tier”, what would be a ball park for the line between them? Is it a ranking using the RPI? Or something else? I’m guessing my kid is a mid tier type kid. Very high academics so some of the higher D3 schools could be appealing as well.

There no set delineation, but typically around the top 30 in RPI would be considered top tier. The Big Ten teams and ACC teams make up 14 of them. Penn, Princeton, Dartmouth, Stanford, USC, Colorado, Denver, Loyola, Navy, JMU, Towson, Stony Brook, Florida.

Few others can probably be considered Top Tier depending on the year.

IMHO, "Top Tier" would be the Programs that are consistently finish the year ranked in the Top 20. Programs that come to mind are:

Maryland
North Carolina
Northwestern
Syracuse
Boston College
Princeton
Virginia
Penn
Florida
Notre Dame
Penn State
Stony Brook
Loyola

You can't look past...

Duke...
Navy
JMU

Others that have not been as consistent as the above over the past 8 - 10 years but would still be Top Tier:

USC
Denver
Hopkins
Georgetown
Stanford
Dartmouth

Also....

UMass and Towson are strong programs....

Michigan looks to be on the rise, Virginia Tech has shown promise

I'm sure there are a couple of other programs that would be considered Top Tier (Top 30) Programs but the schools listed above have proven over time that they are the Top Programs.

Maryland, North Carolina, Boston College, Northwestern seem to be a cut above... Syracuse, Virginia, Princeton, Penn, Stony Brook, Florida have been very consistent, Notre Dame, Loyola and Penn State right there. JMU Won a National Championship and Navy has been to the Final Four....

I keep getting teased by the USC mentions! (I know it’s the Trojans)
Let’s talk about what it will take to get some nice Carolina schools into D1-D3! Nice weather, shorts flight but still drivable, and nice people! When will the Gamecocks get some serious lacrosse going? Every yankee wants to know!😀 Any other schools need a bump too?

Way back when, NC State had a Men's program I believe they went Varsity in 1973 and had some success a few years later with two Top 10 finishes #9 and #6 and they made the NCAA Tournament one year (at the time only 8 teams made it). The Wolfpack had wins vs UNC and UVA and obviously had some excellent players. They disbanded the program in 1982 (i believe) and one of the best players to have played the game (Tim Nelson) transferred to Syracuse and was an instrumental in helping Syracuse become one of the Elite Programs in the country and winning their first national championship in 1983. ;- ) Go Cuse, Go NC State...

It baffles me that Wake Forest has not started a program. All the pieces are there (great location, best conference in the country, target demographic).

UNC Charlotte announced it will add girls lacrosse.

Clemson

South Carolina had announced a couple years ago that they were adding women's lacrosse. The club team was then disbanded due to severe hazing so I think that may have put an end to those plans. Haven't heard anything in quite some time about the status of adding it.

Are schools recruiting defenders anymore or should I move my 2023 to only mid? She plays both right now.

I have a 2022 defender (and only a defender) so been closely watching the 2021's Defenders are certainly last on the list of most d1 programs. I don't think you need to have her play middie exclusively, but it seems like it was a poor decision on my part to have my daughter stick with defense (which she likes) and not get middle club experience.

Softball (and baseball for boys) is still very popular in the south/deep south. Agree that lacrosse will eventually spread to those regions but softball/baseball will impede the speed.

It depends where and what club she plays defense for. The defenders for the top teams of the top clubs get recruited to play defense. Most of these kids however play midfield for school, but some will also play school defense. I believe if your daughter can be a standout defender on a top team, she actually has the easiest path for recruiting. The competition for attack spots is much greater, and midfielder even tougher than that. Defense has its own skill set and IQ, a good defensive player can show great value, purely playing defense. I have also watched many defenders who can’t seem to embrace the position, always looking to play mid, or bring the ball over restrain and not return or whatever. I would be careful, a kid who stands out as a great defender can also look lost on the offense, and expose their lack of offensive IQ, stick skills, shooting skills, passing skills, and on and on.... Anyway, don’t let anyone scare your daughter away from defense, if that’s what she plays, dial into the position and be the best she can be at it.

Not sure what your talking about. Any good defender will posses, IQ, stick skills, passing skills etc. You cannot get recruited as a defender or any position with all of those things.

Coaches actually look for "Athletes" and they love players who can play defense. All coaches know that defense is what wins championships. Athleticism, selflessness, IQ and a willingness to embrace the position are some of the things that coaches look for. With the exception of the "prolific scorer" (at least at the high end programs) coaches want to see "Athletes" who can play defense as well as offense. Run of the mill midfielders and attackers are a dime a dozen on Top 10 - 20 Teams. Many "HS midfielders" will find it difficult to get on the field at top programs if the can not play solid one on one defense or grasp the teams defensive concepts and if attackers can not re-defined effectively they will not play. Coaches know that a weak defender either down low or at the midfield will be exposed and exploited vs good teams. Beyond the top programs it's a garbage shoot because the depth just isn't there so the coaches do not have that many options.

If you look at the top 3 2021 Teams, YJ, SW and M&D, their top defenders are going to Maryland, Stanford, Hopkins, Michigan, USC, Stony Brook, etc.(more than one to a few of those schools) Playing defense does not stop you from getting recruited to a top school if you have the skills that the schools are looking for. As a parent of one of these defenders I would say the most important thing is for your daughter to develop her stick skills. As with all positions and the top schools, size and/or speed matter the most but being able to handle the ball on clears is huge.

I’ve been wondering the same thing as my daughter is a defender. She plays middie too but hasn’t really had outside coaching for the draw so she doesn’t play M as much. I feel like when we came to the club three years ago she told them she had been playing D so the club put her there. You must have her speak up if you want them not to spend all the time back on D. “Everyone thinks they’re a M” so you can’t let her get stuck back the0re if she can play both. My daughter has kind of gotten stuck back there- a lot of it is because they need somewhere to put the girls that can’t fall back on D. So they fill holes with them as M. My daughter is very athletic (of course I’m going to say that) but some of the others are not, and you can tell who will go far and who is just playing for fun. Yes, we have them on our club team.

To the 2023 defender parent- My 2021 is committed at Top 20 and had multiple offers as a defender It happens. Some top programs turn mids to defenders. Other programs will take one classic defender per class, it’s rare but possible to see 2 per grade depending on need and philosophy. She plays for a great club program in a lesser hotbed area and she has always played defense for club. Other defenders from her club also committed to high programs. Defenders in her 2021 year from across the country who she knows from clinics and years of playing against were the earlier commits at their clubs (hotbed).

The person who posted above about athleticism and selflessness is spot on. It a workhorse, no-glory position and your kid has to embrace it and truly love the game and the position. It’s a grind. You have to get her out there at clinics and showcases NOW and needs to be exposed to the top offensive players and play against them because that is how she will be seen. As a defender if you are able to challenge the top offensive recruits and play a very strong 1v1, she will be noticed. It’s also extremely helpful if your club is playing against good competition.

Good luck!

Spot on.

As a long islander, I can't understand why University of RI doesn't have a girls program. It's a ferry ride then short drive away. Nice school, would be in a good conference. Get it done

If you want real data, not people’s dopey opinions, just look at this sites top 50 junior list of players. They list all the players, positions and where they are committed to, you will see plenty of defenders on the list, including 3 in the top 10 on the list. The talent level in the sport has vastly increased in the last 5-10-15 years and the idea of turning athletic kids into defenders has changed too. Coaches definitely recruit defenders who are honed in on their trade nowadays.

And then there are some who are on the top teams that have not been recruited.

And then are some who committed to schools who put academics first. Crazy right!!

Completely disagree with your "size" matters the most comment. However, I do agree with your comment regarding speed. As stated in an earlier post: Coaches look for "Athletes" that holds especially true at the Top Tier Programs. Coaches want players who can move. Yes, obviously the player needs to be able to throw and catch but if the player can't move fast enough then they better be able to put up really big numbers (assists or goals) that are well above the norm. Defensive players must be able to move and not just in a straight line. Size? Size is not a big factor.

Ok I’m not sure if this question will be answered correctly so I will try to ask as simply as possible-
Is any NLI/scholarship package only as good as the coach shepherding it through the schools administration?
What if the coaches don’t really have a savvy business mind? It happpens.

Huh?

To summarize in my opinion to get recruited at Defense for a higher ranked D1 school a defender must demonstrate more than just great positional stay at home defense. Its about the ability to match up and create offense through defense.

Footwork, quickness, playmaking, field awareness, aggressive quick double team, high pressure takeaway ability and creating offense through defense are most important defensive recruiting traits coaches look for. I see too many kids who are very good stay at home positional defensive players that don't take chances and lack that "pop off the page" dynamic recruitable athletic factor. Coaches want impact players not just defenders who stand there and also want more than just straight line speed.

To answer the previous question, my advice would be for anyone looking to get recruited at Defense that they embrace an offensive minded game that showcases ability to be all over the field and create disruption. Sitting on the crease or standing positionally correct is only part of what is needed and can cause a defensive player to look bland and average to a coach.

Of course a player needs this ability but there are a lot of athletic kids playing defense who are scared to touch the ball and be part of the offense because they were moved to defense from middy and lack confidence or think that simply playing defensive position is enough. There are also too many kids not willing to take chances on defense, it comes with a traditional defensive mindset and it hurts them on the recruiting front.

That is why coaches sometimes look to transition middies but there are a lot of kids now who want to play defense and choose to make that their specialty but could also play middy and are as athletic as the offensive talent.

Lastly there are crappy players and great players all over the country and where you are from only reflects your zip code not your ability, those days are over everybody gets a shot so long as you have talent and have some type of recruitable asset.

If you look at the top 3 2021 Teams, YJ, SW and M&D, their top defenders are going to Maryland, Stanford, Hopkins, Michigan, USC, Stony Brook, etc.(more than one to a few of those schools) Playing defense does not stop you from getting recruited to a top school if you have the skills that the schools are looking for. As a parent of one of these defenders I would say the most important thing is for your daughter to develop her stick skills. As with all positions and the top schools, size and/or speed matter the most but being able to handle the ball on clears is huge.
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And then there are some who are on the top teams that have not been recruited. [/quote]

And then are some who committed to schools who put academics first. Crazy right!![/quote]

What is crazy? Many of the top players / recruits put academics first. Many of the best programs are also great academic schools.

Not sure what your point is. Are you insinuating that the top recruits / players do not put academics first?

The reality is that many of the top recruits / players are excellent students as well. If a player is a strong student as well as a top tier athlete / lacrosse player she most likely will find a spot at one of the Top Programs.

Final 2019 Top 25

1 - Maryland
2 - Boston College
3 - North Carolina
4 - Northwestern
5 - Syracuse
6 - Princeton
7 - Virginia
8 - Denver
9 - Notre Dame
10 - Loyola
11 - Michigan
12 - Stony Brook
13 - Florida
14 - Penn
15 - James Madison
16 - Navy (USNA)
17 - Southern California
18 - Georgetown
19 - Colorado
20 - Dartmouth
21 - Duke
22 - Johns Hopkins
23 - Stanford
24 - High Point
25 - Virginia Tech

Again, not sure what your point is. Top Tier players will be recruited by many of the Top Tier Programs and many of the Top Tier Programs are also Top Tier Academic Institutions.

All club teams, even the top teams have girls that are fillers. Some have been on the team for years and probably should have moved down a level years ago. The kids that aren't committed yet on those teams are not committed for a reason. They can point fingers at the club coaches or directors but if their daughters were good enough they would be recruited. Others may have turned down 2nd tier options waiting on top tier offers that never came. Just because a girl is on a top club team does not mean she is a top player. This process can be very humbling.

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And then there are some who are on the top teams that have not been recruited. [/quote]

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And then are some who committed to schools who put academics first. Crazy right!![/quote]

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What is crazy? Many of the top players / recruits put academics first. Many of the best programs are also great academic schools.

Not sure what your point is. Are you insinuating that the top recruits / players do not put academics first?

The reality is that many of the top recruits / players are excellent students as well. If a player is a strong student as well as a top tier athlete / lacrosse player then she most likely will find a spot at one of the Top Programs.

Final 2019 Top 25

1 - Maryland
2 - Boston College
3 - North Carolina
4 - Northwestern
5 - Syracuse
6 - Princeton
7 - Virginia
8 - Denver
9 - Notre Dame
10 - Loyola
11 - Michigan
12 - Stony Brook
13 - Florida
14 - Penn
15 - James Madison
16 - Navy (USNA)
17 - Southern California
18 - Georgetown
19 - Colorado
20 - Dartmouth
21 - Duke
22 - Johns Hopkins
23 - Stanford
24 - High Point
25 - Virginia Tech

Again, not sure what your point is.

Top Tier players will be recruited by many of the Top Tier Programs and many of the Top Tier Programs are also Top Tier Academic Institutions. [/quote]

Also, everyone should keep in mind that the top college programs' incoming classes each year are not made up of 8-12 players who are are all better than recruits at some lower ranked program. Top programs get a handful of players who are the very best in the country, and then fill in with other players who are good but not at the same level. There could be a player on a club team committed to a top 10-20 program with little chance of meaningful playing time barring significant improvement. Meanwhile, another player of equal skill might be uncommitted, or committed to a school ranked lower, because she wants a realistic chance to play or is looking for specific things beyond team ranking. Every player's end game and journey is different. I'm not saying that players with opportunities at top 25 programs are choosing the lowest tier programs, but there are some players recruited by top 10 programs who choose a lower ranked option.

No program gets all of the players that they want but don't kid yourself, the top programs consistently bring in the top talent. There is always a lot of chatter about the legitimacy of player rankings, commitments, recruiting, freshmen class rankings, etc... but at the end of the day there appears to be a strong correlation between where the so called "top players" go to college and how the "Team" performs. Every year it seems that the large majority of the Top 30 - 50 High School Players commit to the same (top 15 - 20) programs. The programs that consistently bring in the best players are the teams that consistently out perform the rest of the programs.

I do believe the point was that there are some who will commit to a top 20 but not see the field, while others who could commit to a top 20 choose a lower ranked team for various reasons.

That is a legit point, all these top programs need are 2-3 studs per year...2 or 3 out of 8-12...15 or 16 kids play.

There it is again, the negative, the knock, the attempt to diminish that has been prevalent on this site for years. Some will always try to elevate their daughters status by trying to diminish the accomplishments / accolades / achievements of others.

You're being dramatic. Every year the lists of top ranked commits and current players include some girls from programs who are not in the top 5-10 year after year after year. Isn't it diminishing the accomplishments of those players when you won't acknowledge they are as good or better than some players on higher ranked teams?

How is it diminishing the players if they are ranked? The fact that the players are ranked is acknowledging them.