BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums MID-ATLANTIC LACROSSE MARYLAND FORUM Boys 2024-7th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019

THE CHEATER LEAGUE TELLING THE CHEATER PARENTS TO "EXHIBIT THE HIGHEST LEVEL OF SPORTSMANSHIP AT ALL TIMES"!

ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!!!

THE CONTRADICTION OF ALL CONTRADICTIONS!!!

THE CHEATERS TELLING THE CHEATERS TO BE GOOD SPORTS. REALLY??!!!

What is telling is ....that there is so many people that are holding their child back for lacrosse. Years ago this was mainly limited to private schools. Not anymore. Once Cat got out of bag, and the public HOCO league ( People who ran it at start had ties to Holdbacks in MIAA schools) decided to go grade base instead of age base like all their other leagues....the race was on in Maryland to hold your child back. Frankly everyone knows it is wrong at YOUTH level, yet the holdback race goes on with Maryland and private schools everywhere leading the way.

No justification for this at youth level .. no matter how hard the holdback apologists try.

Absolutely agree. The temporary advantage of the holdback, especially at this age, is very short lived. The true athletes will rise to the top soon enough. And for all you holdback parents that like to site holdbacks from MD playing D1, for everyone of your MD holdback D1 players, prob 5 LI on age players go D1. There are simply holdback D1 players from MD because there are sooooooo many MD holdbacks. I would argue that they would have gone D1 anyway, were they not holdbacks

What you don’t hear about is about all those holdbacks that don’t work out. No D1 scholarships. We don’t like to talk about those kids now do we. But for every D1 holdback, how many holdbacks are there that were a complete bust and a waste of a year of the kids life. I’m sure that ratio is gigantic. Yet no one talks about that.

Why can't we just talk about the games

At the risk of moving on from the 91/Mad Lax cheater conversation, 91 and Mad Lax in the final today. 91 beat a much improved Next Level team, and Mad Lax held off a tough Hawks team 6-5 in the semi's. The ML/Hawks game was really well played with a lot of talent on both teams.

The u-19 invite list had 17 kids from MD and 25ish kids from LI (more from upstate). The population of LI is nearly 25% bigger than the state of MD. The black population of MD is 29% and it’s 9% in LI, so the population of kids playing lacrosse is much smaller (happily the game is growing and you see more black kids but I don’t see many on the LI teams we play.) You’d agree that u-19 is age based right? You’d agree that that the first grade holdback advantage (while wildly exaggerated) should largely be gone right by 18-19? You do watch Long Island/MD 7th and 8th grade lacrosse and see almost no difference in the size of the kids right? 91 2022 Smash looked as big as any team I’ve seen last summer. So can we agree there is a lot of good lacrosse in both places? Long Island has a slight edge (but not sure how much in adjusting for population). Great tough athletic players from up there and you should spend more time enjoying how well they play than complaining here.

Nobody cares about a bunch of inferior cheater kids playing down just to be able to get some playing time. Pathetic. Just let them play with the 2023 B’s where they belong.

Yo Buffy, what do you and your MD cheater friends have to say about such common sense logic, by your fellow Marylander? Makes you feel like a real person bag, right?

Do you believe that your cheater league calls 7th grade lacrosse players 13 and 14 year olds??? Wake up call... 7th graders are suppose to be 12 and 13 year olds! My kid Luigi is in 7th grade and he is 12 years old and won't be 13 until September. What does your cheater league have to say about that? He's a 6th grader in their eye's, right?

You people are corrupt to the core. And to think, your most important job as a parent is to teach your kid right from wrong, through your words and deeds. Simply shameful what you and people like you are teaching your youngsters.

~Sal from Long Island

When you give a select group of children an advantage other children dont get the same exact age or even younger, you have to expect some chatter in that sport.

No justification for this at youth level .. no matter how hard the holdback apologists try.
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Yo Buffy, what do you and your MD cheater friends have to say about such common sense logic, by your fellow Marylander? Makes you feel like a real person bag, right?

Do you believe that your cheater league calls 7th grade lacrosse players 13 and 14 year olds??? Wake up call... 7th graders are suppose to be 12 and 13 year olds! My kid Luigi is in 7th grade and he is 12 years old and won't be 13 until September. What does your cheater league have to say about that? He's a 6th grader in their eye's, right?

You people are corrupt to the core. And to think, your most important job as a parent is to teach your kid right from wrong, through your words and deeds. Simply shameful what you and people like you are teaching your youngsters.

~Sal from Long Island

[/quote]

Sal -

As always good to hear from you, you seem especially upset in your post above, I hope everything is OK with you. I do keep wondering though why you cannot answer a simple question for me, why do you care about MD lacrosse so much? In the grand scheme of things we don't play each other that much, most normal human beings don't put too much stock in 7th grade rankings for any sport, and finally there is an event called the WSYL which is age based so that for those people who care about having the best 7th grade team in the world at something you have it. As I have said sincerely many times before I wish all the WSYL players good luck and I am sure it will be a great experience for the kids and their families.

Let me also be upfront again about where I stand on things. I have an "elite" player who is on age. I have no issues with the summer "holdback" but am not a fan of the "double holdback" as it puts my child at a real disadvantage in terms of age but end of the day fighting through challenges tends to build a better person. I am also not an apologist as I tend to believe that most parents are not inherently evil and are trying to do what is in the best interest of their child when making these decisions, a good percentage of which are made when a kid is going into K (remember entry age requirements for MD and NY are different). I am just trying to put things in a little bit of perspective (entry into elite high schools, cheaper to holdback in middle school, summer birthdays, assumption it will lead to better college prospects - see next paragraph, etc.). Finally, I (or any parent in MD lacrosse) do not get to make the rules by which we play so what do you suggest we do? I am a huge supporter of "age based" systems at the youth sports level and will heartily support any effort to get back to this in MD lacrosse but until that time I am also not going to moan about it like a little female dog (getting a little saucy there, tough day at work, I apologize). End of the day I do not like the trends I see in holding back but I also am not in a position to judge parents who I know nothing about or what their motivations are. You believe they are evil and unjustified, I tend to think the issue is a little more complicated than that with strong incentives to make holding back a rational decision.

There have been some interesting posts on the benefit, or lack thereof, of the holdback, especially the post above on u19 team. Being an analytical person and having 15 minutes between my squash matches I decided to try and bring some facts to the table. Took a look through the rosters of the 16 teams in the NCAA tournament this year and only a couple have birthdates so the sample size is not huge but I am guessing somewhat representative (this could be a wrong assumption). In looking at the Freshman and Sophomore classes (kids closer to when MD club went grade vs. age based which I think was about four years ago) and taking out anyone listed as "redshirt" we see the following: 1) Average and median age on Sept. 1 of their Freshman year was ~18.9, you would expect this to be 18.5 with an average distribution of birthdays so about 4/5 months older than you would expect. 2) 40% of the kids were "LI Holdbacks", on age but Sept-Dec birthday, 30% were Holdbacks, born before Sept 1 and 30% were "LI on Age", born Jan-Sept. Interesting enough the one NY school in the sample skewed more LI on Age and Holdback. Take what you want from this but in general a kid playing at a top DI programs is likely older than a pure age based system would dictate, the largest group of kids fell into that fall-Dec birth range and for every LI on Age there was one Holdback. Since MD only went grade based a few years ago it will be the classes coming into college in the next couple of years which will actually show if there is any benefit.

Sal I do implore you to look up the word "cheater", in the words of Inigo Montoya, "you keep using that word, I don't think you know what it means."

One final note since you decided to take the really low road with your final statement I will simply respond that based on the behavior I have seen from LI parents at tournaments it is laughable you have the nerve to talk about "shameful" and "what you are teaching your youngsters". That being said always happy to continue the debate but I do implore you to come up with something a little better than "my son 12, your son 16, you bad, me good" over and over again, at least put a little effort into it.

Your loving friend,
Buff (I like the new LI version of my name)

Why can't we just talk about the games

We are. It’s called Maryland Youth Lacrosse. “The Cheaters Game.”

Now. Let’s get right to it. What cheater team beat which cheater team?

TEAM 91 - LONG ISLAND - "WOLFPACK"

#1 RANKING - 13U - IL MAGAZINE
#1 RANKING - GRAD YEAR 2024 - USCL

There you have it folks.

Whether you're talking real 7th-grade-age lacrosse, or cheater lacrosse with 8th-grade-age kids, and maybe a 9th-grade-age kid or two... Team 91 Wolfpack is the und1sputed #1 Ranked Team ANYWHERE.

And just like always, ZERO holdbacks!

How do they do it?

Still no holdbacks.

Still better than all of the cheater/2023-age teams.

Still the best team at 2024, after all these years.

Can you imagine what MD teams would be like without all their holdbacks? First, that’s an absurd thought, since obviously as they exist today, there would be no teams, since no team can only play with 5 (on age) players. But let’s play along for the fun of it.

MD teams field teams that are 100% holdbacks, when playing LI teams. Just to be able to compete, MD has to have teams that are a year and occasionally two years older than their competition from LI. Take away all those older players, and what do every single MD HoCo team have in common? You’re all horrible lacrosse teams. You couldn’t compete with LI “C”teams.

So keep on cheating, and hoarding all of those holdbacks. But I suggest you start recruiting more of the double holdbacks, because the one year advantage is still not enough.

Cheat-on!

Frank, you need to be more careful what you post. I am sure you wouldn't want people posting false, negative things about your boys. Thanks.

Because he has a chip on his shoulder, and he won't let it go. He is spewing a lot of hate.

That’s pretty funny. I guess we will see at Millons tourney who the best 2024 team is for real. Or wait, I forgot, is WP one of the teams too scared to come down and play? I guess we will see....

Subpar cheater teams of 8th graders need to sit in 6 hours of traffic and come to us, if they want a shot at playing the indisputable #1 Ranked 7th grade team in the world (to include cheater 8th grade teams like Madlax). We don't waste our time driving to play fake-teams.

See you at the NLF, unless your coach decides to play down against the 2025's again. Probably a good plan, though. Worked last time. Hey, if you get caught, at least it won't hurt your reputation (it can't get any worse!!).

Yo bro. Who’s Frank? I’m Sal from LI. You know, the guy with the IROC. A real beauty, too! Ponytail, tats, Gold chains and a car port. Remember?

Frank is dad of two Taz boys. Sorry to disappoint. No IROC. No car port. No ponytail. In fact, no hair at all. Decent guy, but this website has brought out the worst in him. I am sure he never would have said the things that he did, if he had known he was going to get caught.

[/quote]
Sorry to disappoint. No IROC. No car port. No ponytail. In fact, no hair at all. Decent guy, but this website has brought out the worst in him. I am sure he never would have said the things that he did, if he had known he was going to get caught.[/quote]

Bro, I don't know no who that is, but I'm your guy, keeping it real on here. The voice of reason. And I got plenty of hair. Dude, Sal from the island. Remember??

Can’t wait to see the 2023-age cheater teams this weekend at the NLF. Noted, the biggest cheater team is in hiding and won’t be making the trip. Just as well. It would have been very embarrassing for all the cheater parents.

Quick question. Who has the most double holdbacks, of the cheater teams that will be in attendance? Guess I can figure that out this weekend.

See you Saturday cheaters!

Urban legend.

Last I looked the NLF has a 2024 division. Again, if you want to play U13 ball, be our guest. Otherwise, find some older/bigger 7th graders. Either way, stop whining. 3 of the top 4 Maryland teams won't even be there. Hawks will definitely give your girls all that they can handle, but Bethesda has fallen off of a cliff so don't tell us after the fact that you beat up on them, and Crabs is pretty comparable to Primetime (e.g., not that good).

Hawks dont have a shot

when your girls are getting beat by the hawks this weekend just remember that hawks were fourth place in hoco this spring

Thanks for the heads up on your 2023’s. I give them credit for showing up and taking their beating like men. More than I can say for the gutless Madlax holdbacks. Quick question. How old is the new Madlax marque holdback? You know, the one that played for the DC Dogs 2023 team until this year. Is this holdback year 2 for him?

~Sal from the Island

Thanks for the cheater update. Quick question. Why don’t your little ladies ever play on age? Kinda pathetic that they have to play down one and two years, just to. be able to compete with real lacrosse teams from the island. What do you think the problem is, as to why all your kids are so darn inferior? Is it just a confidence problem where they are scared to death of playing teams from the island? Does it make them feel like real players when they play far younger, smaller players? Or are they just substandard players who simply aren’t good enough to play with kids their own age? Kinda sad, right?

Either way, cheat-on, cheaters!!

What happens when 12 and 13 year olds play 13, 14 and 15 year olds from MD?

Who you got? Talent or size/age??

I’ll go with “talent”.

Guys from the Island,
It's a 2024 grad year division and a 2024 grad year forum. If you want to talk about ages and holdbacks and come up with excuse after excuse, go for it (or just play soccer, where it's all about birthdates). If you saw Madlax play this spring, you'd realize that the kid who played for DC Dogs last year isn't even the best player on the team (or probably even the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th best). And the frightening part about him is that he's on age. Just take a look at his dad on the sideline this summer. Oh, and wait until next year, when #24 from last year (who's playing up for the Dogs this year even though he's in 7th grade) is on their first line. Will be even more for your girls to be scared of then.

Love how the Madlax parents trash their own players. The DCDogs 23 holdback kid, basically stinks?! I’m sure his parents will love hearing that, from one of their own. But I must say, everything that I know about your club, sadly that is to be expected.

And, yeah, I’m sure the kid who played for ‘23’s until this year, isnt a holdback! Yeah right! In MD where basically every player is a holdback, this 6’ 170 lb 2023 player is not a holdback? Ok. He’s 12 years old! Hahahaha. Funny, because your previous marque holdback #24 says that he is one of seven new holdbacks this year, which were brought aboard to help fill the void left by his leaving and playing on age with the 2023’s.

That’s right. Your #24 man-child admits to being a holdback, admits that the DCDogs ‘23 player is a holdback, along with 6 additional holdbacks, just this year alone. Yup. The LI kids are pretty chummy with your boys on social media. We get ALL the inside scoop, straight from YOUR players. There isnt an on age player on Madlax that touches the turf!!!

Which leads me back to the same old question, why are your players so inferior that they have to play down one year, or more, just to be able to compete with teams from the island? I gotta be honest, i’d Seriously be embarrassed if my kid played on a team that only played down, just to hopefully be able to win a few youth lacrosse games that absolutely nobody cares about.

On the island, our kids play up when possible to challenge them. Never ever considered having my kid play down. Why would I? How can playing younger, smaller, less experienced kids help his development? If playing down seemed like a good option for his development, I’d say he needs to find a new sport, because there obviously wouldn’t be much of s future for him in lacrosse!

Which is exactly the reason why Madlax and the other cheater teams aren’t nearly as good as they should be, fielding teams that are a year older than their LI competition. They recruit holdbacks. They horde holdbacks. They play almost exclusively HOLDBACKS. These holdbacks are not top tier talent. Far from it. Most of their holdbacks are subpar players that couldn’t get any playing time with kids their own age. The great majority are subpar athletes. Once the size advantage goes away, they will be riding the pines the rest of their lacrosse careers.

Simply, you don’t have the best players playing. You have the oldest, and biggest and strongest players playing. But no where close to the best players or athletes. I highly doubt that any subjective, reasonable mind would ever argue this. It’s posted on here all the time. LI teams have the talent, while MD teams have the size (hope so, they are a year+ older).

So, there you have it Madlax cheater dad. The reason why LI teams have the best lacrosse on the globe. We develop our players. MD cheats with older players. A plan that backfired on them.

Serves you right. Don’t you know, cheaters never prosper!

Love how the Madlax parents trash their own players. The DCDogs 23 holdback kid, basically stinks?! I’m sure his parents will love hearing that, from one of their own. But I must say, everything that I know about your club, sadly that is to be expected.

And, yeah, I’m sure the kid who played for ‘23’s until this year, isnt a holdback! Yeah right! In MD where basically every player is a holdback, this 6’ 170 lb 2023 player is not a holdback? Ok. He’s 12 years old! Hahahaha. Funny, because your previous marque holdback #24 says that he is one of seven new holdbacks this year, which were brought aboard to help fill the void left by his leaving and playing on age with the 2023’s.

That’s right. Your #24 man-child admits to being a holdback, admits that the DCDogs ‘23 player is a holdback, along with 6 additional holdbacks, just this year alone. Yup. The LI kids are pretty chummy with your boys on social media. We get ALL the inside scoop, straight from YOUR players. There isnt an on age player on Madlax that touches the turf!!!

Which leads me back to the same old question, why are your players so inferior that they have to play down one year, or more, just to be able to compete with teams from the island? I gotta be honest, i’d Seriously be embarrassed if my kid played on a team that only played down, just to hopefully be able to win a few youth lacrosse games that absolutely nobody cares about.

On the island, our kids play up when possible to challenge them. Never ever considered having my kid play down. Why would I? How can playing younger, smaller, less experienced kids help his development? If playing down seemed like a good option for his development, I’d say he needs to find a new sport, because there obviously wouldn’t be much of s future for him in lacrosse!

Which is exactly the reason why Madlax and the other cheater teams aren’t nearly as good as they should be, fielding teams that are a year older than their LI competition. They recruit holdbacks. They horde holdbacks. They play almost exclusively HOLDBACKS. These holdbacks are not top tier talent. Far from it. Most of their holdbacks are subpar players that couldn’t get any playing time with kids their own age. The great majority are subpar athletes. Once the size advantage goes away, they will be riding the pines the rest of their lacrosse careers.

Simply, you don’t have the best players playing. You have the oldest, and biggest and strongest players playing. But no where close to the best players or athletes. I highly doubt that any subjective, reasonable mind would ever argue this. It’s posted on here all the time. LI teams have the talent, while MD teams have the size (hope so, they are a year+ older).

So, there you have it Madlax cheater dad. The reason why LI teams have the best lacrosse on the globe. We develop our players. MD cheats with older players. A plan that backfired on them.

Serves you right. Don’t you know, cheaters never prosper!


[/quot

My God this is dumb and it must have been exhausting to write. LI players are great. So are MD players (See Patrick Spencer, Ryan Conrad,Joey Epstein (MLax), etc. . Celebrate the good players, good teams and stop acting like a BadPerson.

they won it last year

^^^😂

You know what’s exhausting? The amount of time and effort that the cheater teams put in to feed their obsession of amassing cheater holdbacks, to win a few meaningless youth lacrosse games, at the expense of developing their true talent. That’s why your 2023-age teams are substandard and most still can’t compete with island teams a year or two younger. Your cheating obsession has got all of MD youth lacrosse in a total brain fog. That must be really exhausting!

Let's go through a couple of things here to try and get everyone on the same page:

"There isnt an on age player on Madlax that touches the turf!!!"

This is a blatantly false statement which makes all of your other claims subject to question. How do I know, because I have an on age player on that team who sees the turf a lot.

"Which leads me back to the same old question, why are your players so inferior that they have to play down one year, or more, just to be able to compete with teams from the island? I gotta be honest, i’d Seriously be embarrassed if my kid played on a team that only played down, just to hopefully be able to win a few youth lacrosse games that absolutely nobody cares about. "

This is based on a two completely false underlying assumptions: 1) That anyone outside of LI cares about LI lacrosse or competing with LI teams, we don't and sorry to say what is happening here and around the country has nothing to do with LI. 2) That we care about winning a few youth lacrosse games. What is happening with grade based/holdbacks has nothing to do with winning 2024 lacrosse games, it is about access to some of the best high schools and then colleges. LI folk seem to project their psychotic devotion and infatuation with youth lacrosse (take a stroll through their board for 5 minutes) to everyone else. By the way your whole post is based on caring about winning a few youth lacrosse games so at least have some logical consistency with your statements.

"So, there you have it Madlax cheater dad. The reason why LI teams have the best lacrosse on the globe. We develop our players. MD cheats with older players. A plan that backfired on them."

How has this plan backfired? Please provide any data to show how it has backfired or that MD does not develop its' players. I would be very interested to see how you come to this conclusion. I am sorry to inform you that having holdbacks and developing players are not mutually exclusive. Taking a stroll through the top DI programs in the country you would assume 80% of the team would be from LI if what you say is true but sadly once again verifiable facts get in the way of your narrative. From a sampling of the teams that made the tournament this year the average age of the players when coming in as Freshman was roughly 18.9 and 70% were holdabcks or holdbacks as defined by LI people. Even a look at the top 25 high school teams proves you wrong.

"Serves you right. Don’t you know, cheaters never prosper!"

For the love of god can you please at least use basic English words correctly, playing by the rules that govern the sport is not cheating no matter how badly you want to think it is. The ad nauseam use of "cheating" and "cheater" once again shows how weak your arguments are and simply makes you look ignorant. Finally, if you are citing social media as a source for information you are truly grasping to keep your false narrative alive.

If you want to debate age based vs. grade based awesome, let's go at it, let's use facts that can be verified. Funny enough I probably 100% agree with you on this issue but you continue to use incorrect facts and ad hominem attacks so your points become meaningless drivel to anyone reading.

Yooo hooo!

The cheater Hawks team will give us “all that we can handle”???

You grossly underestimate the talent of the undisputed best team in all of 2024.

#1 Ranked 13U team and
#1 Ranked 2024 team (to include all of your MD cheater teams). BTW, did I mention that the team is 100% on age players of which the great majority are still only 12 years old?

Yup. Our twelve year olds dominated your “top MD team” of 6’+ should-be-high-school-kids right from the opening whistle. Not a competitive game in the least. “All that we can handle”?? LMAO!

Guess we won’t be needing any of those cheater older, bigger kids to beat up on the top HoCo MD holdback teams, as you suggested. No need for that, OBVIOUSLY!

Nope. We’ll just play with our highly skilled, five foot 12 year olds, and keep beating up on the 2024 bracket this summer. You can keep your underskilled, over sized holdbacks.

Like how you guys setup the schedule for your own tourney. I’m sure it was a coincidence that the Hawks played their toughest game of the tourney on Sunday early morning, then played the same tough team again in the semis and then had a third game on Sunday against the pack in the finals. Interestingly enough WP played all four of their easy games on Saturday which means they only played 1 semifinal game before playing the hawks in the final. Hmmm, I’m sure that was by accident, definitely. Having seen both WP and madlax play now, it will
obviously be a great matchup but I don’t think the pack will ultimately be able to handle madlax. They’re just at another level compared to the rest of the country and way too deep. Hopefully they play each other at some point this summer.

No dog in the fight, but what was the score of the last Madlax/Hawks game?

Tourney is run by the NLF, not 91. Most teams at the tourney were members of the NLF.