BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums MID-ATLANTIC LACROSSE MARYLAND FORUM Boys 2024-7th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019

The first issue is if you stack a team full of summer birthdays or even earlier and have them play a diverse team of different ages. This is the first issue with the HoCo elite divisions. The better teams are completely stacked with this type of roster. There's a reason why they are "better" and it's not due to coaching.

If you are a 2024 parent who pays attention and your club is competitive, here's a better breakdown. There are approximately 21 players on a team, some more and some less but this is about right. At least a third of those kids will be older than the 9/1 guideline; about 10 will be born between September and December; and there might be 4-5 kids born after January. In the elite division, the numbers will skew even older.

The problem lies in those 7 and more like 14 for the elite division teams where their ages vary from a couple of months before up to 18 months before. Yes - 18 months before the 9/1 guideline.

Here's how it happens. You take a delayed entry child who is born in March (and I believe this is too old to play in class divisions) and then that kid re-classes. Now you have a 15 year old playing 7th grade lacrosse. I don't know about 7th grade HoCo but I know most 8th grade teams in the elite division have at least 1 and 1 team has 3. Yes - 3 young men who are 16 years old playing in an 8th grade division.

The age difference in teams for a class based league is way out of balance.

You know what is the funniest part of all this? The two top LI teams have no holdbacks. Yet, they are some of the top teams at this grade, and one of them is quite possibly the best anywhere. That will likely be determined this summer. So on age teams are as good or better than teams a year of two older, which has been going on since grade two. Think about that. If that's the case, why are all of the clubs chasing after holdbacks?

You really need to get over your team being the best. To take your point one step further your 2023 Team is better and has accomplished more yet the pendulum has shifted away from them and they aren't even in HS yet. They got spanked by a Team of Holdback I think it was 6-0 so it goes to show you that holdbacks do make a difference. Get off your high horse about great your team is I was at the Millon 2024 team and I thought your team was one of the better teams but certainly not the best and I think the tournament results support that.

Ahhh. The holdback dad rears his ugly head. Where you been hiding? Once again, you are completely missing the point. What's new. I know you are desperately trying to support your argument, to keep having 15 year old's, like your son, play little 12 year olds, but your spin doesn't work here. First, this is a 2024 thread, so that's what we are discussing, not 2023, 2022... you get the idea. Only 2024. Let's stay focused, shall we. Second, we are citing facts, not speculation of what a holdback dad wants to happen in the future. The facts are what they are. On-age LI teams have been competing and winning against the best teams from MD, that are between one and two years older. No speculation, plain facts. This has been going on for over 5 years now. So far, there is nothing debatable here. Every year is a compete do-over, so we'll wait and see what happens this year. No chest pounding like our friend from Madlax. Simply stating the fact that non-holdback teams are competing and beating the best holdback teams and have for over 5 years, running. AND HERE IS THE POINT... if LI teams can do it, then MD could do it too... win without holdbacks. Here's another interesting question. Why aren't the MD teams better than what they are? Older kids should beat younger, smaller kids, by a lot. But it hasn't happened. Why? My theory is that the holdback players are simply not as good as the non-holdback players, no matter where they are from. In general, they are substandard players that aren't successful against their own age players, so they need the advantage of playing against younger, smaller players. Now, there are always exceptions to every rule, but the overall statement I think is accurate. Clubs chose holdbacks over on-age kids, simply because of their size and strength advantage, and the clubs "win now" mentality. They are not better athletes and they certainly don't have the potential of the average on-age player. If you have your own theory (spin) as to why the holdback teams aren't nearly as good as they should be, I'd love to hear it.

Quick question on "the facts". Honestly I am not trying to be difficult here but we have a lot of 15yo vs 12yo which seems pretty disingenuous to me. The cutoff date for age based is 9/1/2005. This means on average by the beginning of March the average age of 2024 kids is 13, not 12. Of course if your team has more summer 2006 birthdays the average will be 12+, but in that case even an "on age" team could be 6-9 months older if it had more fall birthdays. Most of the MD "holdbacks" I have encountered have summer 2005 birthdays, the reasons for this have been talked about a fair amount (private vs. public focus, etc.). So let's assume every kid on a team was born in June 2005 (which is a stretch as I know for a "fact" that the teams talked about here have "on age" players because it wasn't that long ago MD was age based as well) then by March, on average, the difference would be 9 months as opposed to the "cited facts" of 1 to 2 years. Of course talking in averages does not take into account individuals which can vary but since none of the LI or MD clubs post birth dates or birth certificates no one here really knows exact age or birthday. We can make some assumptions pre/post 9/1.

To your questions about how good MD teams are and why they are not "as good as they should be" since they are 1/2 years older is perhaps because they are actually closer in age than you make it out to be. I am not saying a 9 month age difference (which I think is a high end estimate) is not an advantage but it is a whole lot different than saying a 1 to 2 year difference and it is an age gap that can occur even in age based systems.
Let me know if I am doing the math wrong here.

I am a MD parent of an on age 2024 who believes that age based is the way to go in youth (pre high school) sports.

Madlax is in your heads. Nobody cares about holdbacks except LI crybaby dads.

Madlax owns the island.

Who says they have to go to traditional high schools. They could graduate early in the summer or they could go to a Prep academy like Culver or they could skip senior year sports if they have committed. These are real examples and are not made up. There are really young men turning 16 in their 8th grade year and will be playing in HoCo this year. Why is this so hard to believe. The Gonzage QB was 15 as a freshman and he turned 16 in November. Is it really so hard to believe there aren't a few young men 3-6 months older?

There's nothing in the water where giants grow for certain clubs and not for others.

Quick question on "the facts". Honestly I am not trying to be difficult here but we have a lot of 15yo vs 12yo which seems pretty disingenuous to me. The cutoff date for age based is 9/1/2005. This means on average by the beginning of March the average age of 2024 kids is 13, not 12. Of course if your team has more summer 2006 birthdays the average will be 12+, but in that case even an "on age" team could be 6-9 months older if it had more fall birthdays. Most of the MD "holdbacks" I have encountered have summer 2005 birthdays, the reasons for this have been talked about a fair amount (private vs. public focus, etc.). So let's assume every kid on a team was born in June 2005 (which is a stretch as I know for a "fact" that the teams talked about here have "on age" players because it wasn't that long ago MD was age based as well) then by March, on average, the difference would be 9 months as opposed to the "cited facts" of 1 to 2 years. Of course talking in averages does not take into account individuals which can vary but since none of the LI or MD clubs post birth dates or birth certificates no one here really knows exact age or birthday. We can make some assumptions pre/post 9/1.

To your questions about how good MD teams are and why they are not "as good as they should be" since they are 1/2 years older is perhaps because they are actually closer in age than you make it out to be. I am not saying a 9 month age difference (which I think is a high end estimate) is not an advantage but it is a whole lot different than saying a 1 to 2 year difference and it is an age gap that can occur even in age based systems.

Let me know if I am doing the math wrong here.

I am a MD parent of an on age 2024 who believes that age based is the way to go in youth (pre high school) sports.

The first issue is if you stack a team full of summer birthdays or even earlier and have them play a diverse team of different ages. This is the first issue with the HoCo elite divisions. The better teams are completely stacked with this type of roster. There's a reason why they are "better" and it's not due to coaching.


If you are a 2024 parent who pays attention and your club is competitive, here's a better breakdown. There are approximately 21 players on a team, some more and some less but this is about right. At least a third of those kids will be older than the 9/1 guideline; about 10 will be born between September and December; and there might be 4-5 kids born after January. In the elite division, the numbers will skew even older.


The problem lies in those 7 and more like 14 for the elite division teams where their ages vary from a couple of months before up to 18 months before. Yes - 18 months before the 9/1 guideline.

Here's how it happens. You take a delayed entry child who is born in March (and I believe this is too old to play in class divisions) and then that kid re-classes. Now you have a 15 year old playing 7th grade lacrosse. I don't know about 7th grade HoCo but I know most 8th grade teams in the elite division have at least 1 and 1 team has 3. Yes - 3 young men who are 16 years old playing in an 8th grade division.

The age difference in teams for a class based league is way out of balance.

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I know some late summer 2005 kids that are some of the better athletes in the 2024 elite division. I also know some late summer 2005 kids that frankly aren't that good. I think it is unfair to say that a late summer 2005 kid is better just because he may be slightly older. Most of the summer 2005 kids that I know didn't start playing club lacrosse until around the third grade. I happen to have a kid that has a late summer birthday (he missed the 9/1 cutoff by a couple of weeks). When he started playing lacrosse, he only played rec and he was the youngest kid on the field. He was constantly playing kids that were 1-2 years older than he was. When he got run over by older kids, it just made him tougher and practice that much harder. Even when he started playing club, it was still age based. So again he was playing kids that were 1-2 years older. But now they weren't just older, they were skilled too. Have you ever considered that some of the late summer 2005 kids that play 2024 are not better just because they may be older? Maybe they are better because of all those years they spent playing older kids before they eventually ended up on a grade based team? As I have posted before, if Long Island kids are having to play kids that are older than they are, they will get the last laugh come high school when everything levels out. So rather than hating the "holdbacks," just enjoy the ride and be thankful that your kid is getting better from having to play older kids! Team rankings should mean nothing at this age. It should be about having fun and getting better before high school.

On Long Island, birthdays after 9/1 and before 12/31 are considered holdbacks, since they could/should be playing in the grade above, although that is a call that each parent must make at time of Kindergarten. Not sure if MD considers them holdbacks, but by definition, they are. The parents chooses (they have the option) to "hold them back".

Based on that and your comments above, the average MD "competitive" team is 70% holdbacks ("4 to 5 on age players"), and teams in "elite divisions, the numbers will skew even older."

So the MD teams that the LI teams play, have 2 - 3 on age players, who in all likelihood never see the field, against LI teams. Therefore, MD teams (that play LI teams) are 100% holdback teams. Said another way, they are 2023-age teams, playing down against 2024 LI on-age teams.

Thank you for confirming... that's exactly what I have known all along. There are no 2024-age players playing in the 2024 grade, in MD lacrosse. That's crazy-town. It makes absolutely no sense. It's amazing what profit and greed can do to a kids game. I wish you MD non-holdback parents, the best. You and your kids don't deserve this, and this is not what's best for the sport. Good luck.

The first issue is if you stack a team full of summer birthdays or even earlier and have them play a diverse team of different ages. This is the first issue with the HoCo elite divisions. The better teams are completely stacked with this type of roster. There's a reason why they are "better" and it's not due to coaching.


If you are a 2024 parent who pays attention and your club is competitive, here's a better breakdown. There are approximately 21 players on a team, some more and some less but this is about right. At least a third of those kids will be older than the 9/1 guideline; about 10 will be born between September and December; and there might be 4-5 kids born after January. In the elite division, the numbers will skew even older.


The problem lies in those 7 and more like 14 for the elite division teams where their ages vary from a couple of months before up to 18 months before. Yes - 18 months before the 9/1 guideline.

Here's how it happens. You take a delayed entry child who is born in March (and I believe this is too old to play in class divisions) and then that kid re-classes. Now you have a 15 year old playing 7th grade lacrosse. I don't know about 7th grade HoCo but I know most 8th grade teams in the elite division have at least 1 and 1 team has 3. Yes - 3 young men who are 16 years old playing in an 8th grade division.

The age difference in teams for a class based league is way out of balance.

The leagues in MD are set up based on grade, end of story. I suppose it's the club owners directing the HoCo league officials. Regardless, if you are in 7th grade you play 2024, and there are tons of kids in the 7th grade with birthdays between 9/1 and 12/31, and yes kids with birthdays of 1/1 to 8/31. Unless they change it, that's the way it works in MD. Stay on the island if you dont like it, or write your congressional representatives. Believe it or not, the double hold back is extremely rare and really doesn't happen until kids start their 9th grade year. An extremely small number of kids (1, maybe 2 in the grade year), likely the smaller ones, choose to switch private schools and repeat 8th grade. Your imaginations have you believing its systemic. It isn't, as kids don't want the spotlight from it.

The leagues in MD are set up based on grade, end of story. I suppose it's the club owners directing the HoCo league officials. Regardless, if you are in 7th grade you play 2024, and there are tons of kids in the 7th grade with birthdays between 9/1 and 12/31, and yes kids with birthdays of 1/1 to 8/31. Unless they change it, that's the way it works in MD. Stay on the island if you dont like it, or write your congressional representatives. Believe it or not, the double hold back is extremely rare and really doesn't happen until kids start their 9th grade year. An extremely small number of kids (1, maybe 2 in the grade year), likely the smaller ones, choose to switch private schools and repeat 8th grade. Your imaginations have you believing its systemic. It isn't, as kids don't want the spotlight from it.

I heard the schedule was out for the east qualifier from the WSYL but when I looked at it think someone confused it with a low level aloha type summer slam tournament.
https://worldseriesofyouthlacrosse.com/qualifiers/east-regional-qualifier/schedule-and-standings/

I think many clubs would not think this was a half decent summer event.

Question to the MD HoCo elite division holdback parents.

What does it feel like when your sons “elite” team of cheaters loses to my sons LI team which is a year (or more) younger than your kids sorry team of cheaters.

Mad? Sad? Ashamed? Guilt? Embarrassed? Jealous?

Or all of the above?

Just keep telling yourself and junior whatever you think is best. Good luck in Denver AND at UMass in July.

So.... HoCo scores from this weekend??

Standings posted here, since only one game you can tell the scores.

https://www.eteamz.com/hcrpsports/standings/index.cfm?subsite=6171250