BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums MID-ATLANTIC LACROSSE MARYLAND FORUM Boys 2024-7th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019

Changing the topic. Which six teams will qualify for the WSYL from the North region?

A holdback is any kid that missed the school starting date, and LI has more holdbacks than anyone. It is just that LI's holdbacks are on average 1-3 months younger than MD's holdbacks. At age 13, do you really think 1-3 mos. makes any difference whatsoever??? In some cases, we are talking about kids born in LI in Sept. 2005 (currently 13) versus a kid born in MD in August 2005 (currently 13). If we listened to you the MD 13 yr. old kid born in August 2005 is the person of the earth, when in reality he only missed an arbitrary cutoff of 9/1 by a couple of days. The LI 13 yr. old kid, on the other hand, missed his 1/1 cutoff by months. Using your own flawed logic, the LI kid that missed his 1/1 cutoff by 3 months is a far worse cheater than a MD kid that missed his 9/1 cutoff by a couple of days. There are lots of legitimate reasons (that have nothing to do with lacrosse) for a kid to not be on-grade. For you to bash these kids as cheaters is complete BS and just silly, especially when all the top LI teams have worse offenders.

NY donk forgot he was trolling on a Mid Atlantic thread.

A holdback is any kid that missed the school starting date, and LI has more holdbacks than anyone. It is just that LI's holdbacks are on average 1-3 months younger than MD's holdbacks. At age 13, do you really think 1-3 mos. makes any difference whatsoever??? In some cases, we are talking about kids born in LI in Sept. 2005 (currently 13) versus a kid born in MD in August 2005 (currently 13). If we listened to you the MD 13 yr. old kid born in August 2005 is the person of the earth, when in reality he only missed an arbitrary cutoff of 9/1 by a couple of days. The LI 13 yr. old kid, on the other hand, missed his 1/1 cutoff by months. Using your own flawed logic, the LI kid that missed his 1/1 cutoff by 3 months is a far worse cheater than a MD kid that missed his 9/1 cutoff by a couple of days. There are lots of legitimate reasons (that have nothing to do with lacrosse) for a kid to not be on-grade. For you to bash these kids as cheaters is complete BS and just silly, especially when all the top LI teams have worse offenders.

I love this post. There are tons of wrong things going on. I find it funny there are class based teams when none of these clubs have school names on their jerseys.

I love this post. There are tons of wrong things going on. I find it funny there are class based teams when none of these clubs have school names on their jerseys.

I know. This is the same guy that posted incessantly, for months, that his Madlax team wasn’t going to the WSYL because it was a waste of money and there were better tourneys in MD. But suddenly those lies ended when Madlax went to Denver last summer to play in what amounts to a bad B tourney, without a single decent team. Not one. Isn’t that right Madlax parent? Everything that comes from his keyboard is an obvious juvenile lie.

I know. This is the same guy that posted incessantly, for months, that his Madlax team wasn’t going to the WSYL because it was a waste of money and there were better tourneys in MD. But suddenly those lies ended when Madlax went to Denver last summer to play in what amounts to a bad B tourney, without a single decent team. Not one. Isn’t that right Madlax parent? Everything that comes from his keyboard is an obvious juvenile lie.

Name one thing that is wrong with it. I'll give you names and numbers of kids on 91, Express, and Legacy that are holdbacks, and I guarantee you that these teams have more holdbacks than any of the other teams out there. 91 made NLF grade based for a reason.

So funny that you think I am a Madlax parent. I don't live in MD or any where remotely close. Just easier to use the MD reference to show how notIntelligent your posts are and to tick you off more because obviously you can't take it that the MD teams are better.

And that must be true because you are posting it, and you would never, ever lie right? This coming from the guy that lied about madlax having absolutely no holdbacks, which went on for several years, while you incessantly stalked the LI thread and continually claimed to have the best team in the grade. Turns out madlax was never the best team, and no where close. And, it didn't even have any 2024-age kids on the 2024 team. Your holdbacks have been so well documented, even you have softened your spin on your holdbacks.Then you lied about the WSYL, saying that Madlax thinks it's a waste of time "chasing a trophy" when MD has better tournaments in MD, and laughed at the LI teams that were going. Turns out, you went to Denver last year for a lousy B tournament. So, more lies. It's easy to tell it's you, because you are the only one from MD that has posted on here in support of the holdback teams. MD has classy parents, who are caught up in this holdback mess. They hate the corruption more than the LI teams, since they are the ones who have the 2024 on age kids who have to suffer through it, dealing with the enormous amount of cheating holdback parents such as your self. It's far worse for them, than it is for LI. READ THROUGH THE POSTS OVER THE PAST FEW WEEKS!! There is not one post that is in support of the hold back teams and the grade based system that supports it, which originated in your HoCo league, not the NLF which is how you like to spin it. By the way, the NLF is about two years old. How long has the HoCo been grade based??? That's your answer on where this all came from. yeah, it's very easy to tell it's you, even when you try to trick us, because there is only one person on BOTC that posts such irrational, non-logical childlike posts, oever and over again, and that is you.

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]
[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]
And that must be true because you are posting it, and you would never, ever lie right? This coming from the guy that lied about madlax having absolutely no holdbacks, which went on for several years, while you incessantly stalked the LI thread and continually claimed to have the best team in the grade. Turns out madlax was never the best team, and no where close. And, it didn't even have any 2024-age kids on the 2024 team. Your holdbacks have been so well documented, even you have softened your spin on your holdbacks.Then you lied about the WSYL, saying that Madlax thinks it's a waste of time "chasing a trophy" when MD has better tournaments in MD, and laughed at the LI teams that were going. Turns out, you went to Denver last year for a lousy B tournament. So, more lies. It's easy to tell it's you, because you are the only one from MD that has posted on here in support of the holdback teams. MD has classy parents, who are caught up in this holdback mess. They hate the corruption more than the LI teams, since they are the ones who have the 2024 on age kids who have to suffer through it, dealing with the enormous amount of cheating holdback parents such as your self. It's far worse for them, than it is for LI. READ THROUGH THE POSTS OVER THE PAST FEW WEEKS!! There is not one post that is in support of the hold back teams and the grade based system that supports it, which originated in your HoCo league, not the NLF which is how you like to spin it. By the way, the NLF is about two years old. How long has the HoCo been grade based??? That's your answer on where this all came from. yeah, it's very easy to tell it's you, even when you try to trick us, because there is only one person on BOTC that posts such irrational, non-logical childlike posts, oever and over again, and that is you.

NLF has the two most influential clubs as founding members, if they wanted to stop the madness, they could...and the people most negatively affected are the parents that finance these clubs...such ridiculous irony...The fact that HOCO created this mess does not relieve the other clubs from culpability.

"The ones that are getting hurt by this are the area's where it is running rampant, like MD. The holdbacks are taking all of the positions and opportunities, from the kids that are suppose to be getting them."

And there it is. The plague is taking opportunities from kids who deserve them. The system is rewarding the plague. Your issue is with the NCAA and the league and then the parents. I am agreeing with you. The NCAA doesn't care about holdbacks because they like them. Look at Navy because they are the worst. They recruit holdbacks and then ask them to do another year at Prep. They are getting 21 year old freshman and they love it for a number of reasons. They are older, more mature and are easier to get through the process because they have higher test scores.

LI is holding out but it is creeping in.

All very valid points, but sadly, no solution in sight...our kids will be probably be out of college before things finally change

"The ones that are getting hurt by this are the area's where it is running rampant, like MD. The holdbacks are taking all of the positions and opportunities, from the kids that are suppose to be getting them."

And there it is. The plague is taking opportunities from kids who deserve them. The system is rewarding the plague. Your issue is with the NCAA and the league and then the parents. I am agreeing with you. The NCAA doesn't care about holdbacks because they like them. Look at Navy because they are the worst. They recruit holdbacks and then ask them to do another year at Prep. They are getting 21 year old freshman and they love it for a number of reasons. They are older, more mature and are easier to get through the process because they have higher test scores.

LI is holding out but it is creeping in.

OK, Madlax parent, I'm calling your bluff. Let's hear the names and numbers. Don't leave any out.

And remember, all of the teams that you just mentioned are going to Denver. Madlax is going to watch those teams on their TV set, from their couch in DC. Madlax has two teams at the 2024 level, totaling almost 60 players, and you don't have enough players to field a single team of 15 kids for the WSYL. That's, plain and simple, criminal! That's because your entire team is DC Kindergarten holdbacks, which means all the players should be at minimum 2023's. But then, we can't forget about the reclassed players like the 6'1" 15 year old from DC Dogs 2023, that you love to brag about so much. Yeah, the double holdbacks. We can't leave those out, now can we.

So, give us the names and numbers of all the holdbacks. We are waiting...

All very valid points, but sadly, no solution in sight...our kids will be probably be out of college before things finally change

Still waiting....................................

This is when you come back with some excuse about not having the names and numbers. Still thinking?? OK. No prob. We have time. We''ll wait.......................

You know what is the funniest part of all this? The two top LI teams have no holdbacks. Yet, they are some of the top teams at this grade, and one of them is quite possibly the best anywhere. That will likely be determined this summer. So on age teams are as good or better than teams a year of two older, which has been going on since grade two. Think about that. If that's the case, why are all of the clubs chasing after holdbacks?

Food for thought for all you parents of on age kids, in MD. You all are thinking, my kid is good, but he doesnt get the opportunities. I can tell you, you are most likely correct.

You know what is the funniest part of all this? The two top LI teams have no holdbacks. Yet, they are some of the top teams at this grade, and one of them is quite possibly the best anywhere. That will likely be determined this summer. So on age teams are as good or better than teams a year of two older, which has been going on since grade two. Think about that. If that's the case, why are all of the clubs chasing after holdbacks?

You really need to get over your team being the best. To take your point one step further your 2023 Team is better and has accomplished more yet the pendulum has shifted away from them and they aren't even in HS yet. They got spanked by a Team of Holdback I think it was 6-0 so it goes to show you that holdbacks do make a difference. Get off your high horse about great your team is I was at the Millon 2024 team and I thought your team was one of the better teams but certainly not the best and I think the tournament results support that.

There's always the other divisions of HoCo as an option for all MD youngsters (2024 Elite, AA, A, B). I really only hear the LI donks complaining on the MD forum.

I got a better idea. Put your 15 year old with the other 15 year olds. And let the 12 year old's play the other 12 year olds, in what is suppose to be the 12 year old division. How bout that?

Ahhh. The holdback dad rears his ugly head. Where you been hiding? Once again, you are completely missing the point. What's new. I know you are desperately trying to support your argument, to keep having 15 year old's, like your son, play little 12 year olds, but your spin doesn't work here. First, this is a 2024 thread, so that's what we are discussing, not 2023, 2022... you get the idea. Only 2024. Let's stay focused, shall we. Second, we are citing facts, not speculation of what a holdback dad wants to happen in the future. The facts are what they are. On-age LI teams have been competing and winning against the best teams from MD, that are between one and two years older. No speculation, plain facts. This has been going on for over 5 years now. So far, there is nothing debatable here. Every year is a compete do-over, so we'll wait and see what happens this year. No chest pounding like our friend from Madlax. Simply stating the fact that non-holdback teams are competing and beating the best holdback teams and have for over 5 years, running. AND HERE IS THE POINT... if LI teams can do it, then MD could do it too... win without holdbacks. Here's another interesting question. Why aren't the MD teams better than what they are? Older kids should beat younger, smaller kids, by a lot. But it hasn't happened. Why? My theory is that the holdback players are simply not as good as the non-holdback players, no matter where they are from. In general, they are substandard players that aren't successful against their own age players, so they need the advantage of playing against younger, smaller players. Now, there are always exceptions to every rule, but the overall statement I think is accurate. Clubs chose holdbacks over on-age kids, simply because of their size and strength advantage, and the clubs "win now" mentality. They are not better athletes and they certainly don't have the potential of the average on-age player. If you have your own theory (spin) as to why the holdback teams aren't nearly as good as they should be, I'd love to hear it.

Quick question on "the facts". Honestly I am not trying to be difficult here but we have a lot of 15yo vs 12yo which seems pretty disingenuous to me. The cutoff date for age based is 9/1/2005. This means on average by the beginning of March the average age of 2024 kids is 13, not 12. Of course if your team has more summer 2006 birthdays the average will be 12+, but in that case even an "on age" team could be 6-9 months older if it had more fall birthdays. Most of the MD "holdbacks" I have encountered have summer 2005 birthdays, the reasons for this have been talked about a fair amount (private vs. public focus, etc.). So let's assume every kid on a team was born in June 2005 (which is a stretch as I know for a "fact" that the teams talked about here have "on age" players because it wasn't that long ago MD was age based as well) then by March, on average, the difference would be 9 months as opposed to the "cited facts" of 1 to 2 years. Of course talking in averages does not take into account individuals which can vary but since none of the LI or MD clubs post birth dates or birth certificates no one here really knows exact age or birthday. We can make some assumptions pre/post 9/1.

To your questions about how good MD teams are and why they are not "as good as they should be" since they are 1/2 years older is perhaps because they are actually closer in age than you make it out to be. I am not saying a 9 month age difference (which I think is a high end estimate) is not an advantage but it is a whole lot different than saying a 1 to 2 year difference and it is an age gap that can occur even in age based systems.

Let me know if I am doing the math wrong here.

I am a MD parent of an on age 2024 who believes that age based is the way to go in youth (pre high school) sports.

You know what is the funniest part of all this? The two top LI teams have no holdbacks. Yet, they are some of the top teams at this grade, and one of them is quite possibly the best anywhere. That will likely be determined this summer. So on age teams are as good or better than teams a year of two older, which has been going on since grade two. Think about that. If that's the case, why are all of the clubs chasing after holdbacks?

You really need to get over your team being the best. To take your point one step further your 2023 Team is better and has accomplished more yet the pendulum has shifted away from them and they aren't even in HS yet. They got spanked by a Team of Holdback I think it was 6-0 so it goes to show you that holdbacks do make a difference. Get off your high horse about great your team is I was at the Millon 2024 team and I thought your team was one of the better teams but certainly not the best and I think the tournament results support that.

Ahhh. The holdback dad rears his ugly head. Where you been hiding? Once again, you are completely missing the point. What's new. I know you are desperately trying to support your argument, to keep having 15 year old's, like your son, play little 12 year olds, but your spin doesn't work here. First, this is a 2024 thread, so that's what we are discussing, not 2023, 2022... you get the idea. Only 2024. Let's stay focused, shall we. Second, we are citing facts, not speculation of what a holdback dad wants to happen in the future. The facts are what they are. On-age LI teams have been competing and winning against the best teams from MD, that are between one and two years older. No speculation, plain facts. This has been going on for over 5 years now. So far, there is nothing debatable here. Every year is a compete do-over, so we'll wait and see what happens this year. No chest pounding like our friend from Madlax. Simply stating the fact that non-holdback teams are competing and beating the best holdback teams and have for over 5 years, running. AND HERE IS THE POINT... if LI teams can do it, then MD could do it too... win without holdbacks. Here's another interesting question. Why aren't the MD teams better than what they are? Older kids should beat younger, smaller kids, by a lot. But it hasn't happened. Why? My theory is that the holdback players are simply not as good as the non-holdback players, no matter where they are from. In general, they are substandard players that aren't successful against their own age players, so they need the advantage of playing against younger, smaller players. Now, there are always exceptions to every rule, but the overall statement I think is accurate. Clubs chose holdbacks over on-age kids, simply because of their size and strength advantage, and the clubs "win now" mentality. They are not better athletes and they certainly don't have the potential of the average on-age player. If you have your own theory (spin) as to why the holdback teams aren't nearly as good as they should be, I'd love to hear it.

Quick question on "the facts". Honestly I am not trying to be difficult here but we have a lot of 15yo vs 12yo which seems pretty disingenuous to me. The cutoff date for age based is 9/1/2005. This means on average by the beginning of March the average age of 2024 kids is 13, not 12. Of course if your team has more summer 2006 birthdays the average will be 12+, but in that case even an "on age" team could be 6-9 months older if it had more fall birthdays. Most of the MD "holdbacks" I have encountered have summer 2005 birthdays, the reasons for this have been talked about a fair amount (private vs. public focus, etc.). So let's assume every kid on a team was born in June 2005 (which is a stretch as I know for a "fact" that the teams talked about here have "on age" players because it wasn't that long ago MD was age based as well) then by March, on average, the difference would be 9 months as opposed to the "cited facts" of 1 to 2 years. Of course talking in averages does not take into account individuals which can vary but since none of the LI or MD clubs post birth dates or birth certificates no one here really knows exact age or birthday. We can make some assumptions pre/post 9/1.

To your questions about how good MD teams are and why they are not "as good as they should be" since they are 1/2 years older is perhaps because they are actually closer in age than you make it out to be. I am not saying a 9 month age difference (which I think is a high end estimate) is not an advantage but it is a whole lot different than saying a 1 to 2 year difference and it is an age gap that can occur even in age based systems.
Let me know if I am doing the math wrong here.

I am a MD parent of an on age 2024 who believes that age based is the way to go in youth (pre high school) sports.

Quick question on "the facts". Honestly I am not trying to be difficult here but we have a lot of 15yo vs 12yo which seems pretty disingenuous to me. The cutoff date for age based is 9/1/2005. This means on average by the beginning of March the average age of 2024 kids is 13, not 12. Of course if your team has more summer 2006 birthdays the average will be 12+, but in that case even an "on age" team could be 6-9 months older if it had more fall birthdays. Most of the MD "holdbacks" I have encountered have summer 2005 birthdays, the reasons for this have been talked about a fair amount (private vs. public focus, etc.). So let's assume every kid on a team was born in June 2005 (which is a stretch as I know for a "fact" that the teams talked about here have "on age" players because it wasn't that long ago MD was age based as well) then by March, on average, the difference would be 9 months as opposed to the "cited facts" of 1 to 2 years. Of course talking in averages does not take into account individuals which can vary but since none of the LI or MD clubs post birth dates or birth certificates no one here really knows exact age or birthday. We can make some assumptions pre/post 9/1.

To your questions about how good MD teams are and why they are not "as good as they should be" since they are 1/2 years older is perhaps because they are actually closer in age than you make it out to be. I am not saying a 9 month age difference (which I think is a high end estimate) is not an advantage but it is a whole lot different than saying a 1 to 2 year difference and it is an age gap that can occur even in age based systems.

Let me know if I am doing the math wrong here.

I am a MD parent of an on age 2024 who believes that age based is the way to go in youth (pre high school) sports.

The first issue is if you stack a team full of summer birthdays or even earlier and have them play a diverse team of different ages. This is the first issue with the HoCo elite divisions. The better teams are completely stacked with this type of roster. There's a reason why they are "better" and it's not due to coaching.

If you are a 2024 parent who pays attention and your club is competitive, here's a better breakdown. There are approximately 21 players on a team, some more and some less but this is about right. At least a third of those kids will be older than the 9/1 guideline; about 10 will be born between September and December; and there might be 4-5 kids born after January. In the elite division, the numbers will skew even older.

The problem lies in those 7 and more like 14 for the elite division teams where their ages vary from a couple of months before up to 18 months before. Yes - 18 months before the 9/1 guideline.

Here's how it happens. You take a delayed entry child who is born in March (and I believe this is too old to play in class divisions) and then that kid re-classes. Now you have a 15 year old playing 7th grade lacrosse. I don't know about 7th grade HoCo but I know most 8th grade teams in the elite division have at least 1 and 1 team has 3. Yes - 3 young men who are 16 years old playing in an 8th grade division.

The age difference in teams for a class based league is way out of balance.

The first issue is if you stack a team full of summer birthdays or even earlier and have them play a diverse team of different ages. This is the first issue with the HoCo elite divisions. The better teams are completely stacked with this type of roster. There's a reason why they are "better" and it's not due to coaching.

If you are a 2024 parent who pays attention and your club is competitive, here's a better breakdown. There are approximately 21 players on a team, some more and some less but this is about right. At least a third of those kids will be older than the 9/1 guideline; about 10 will be born between September and December; and there might be 4-5 kids born after January. In the elite division, the numbers will skew even older.

The problem lies in those 7 and more like 14 for the elite division teams where their ages vary from a couple of months before up to 18 months before. Yes - 18 months before the 9/1 guideline.

Here's how it happens. You take a delayed entry child who is born in March (and I believe this is too old to play in class divisions) and then that kid re-classes. Now you have a 15 year old playing 7th grade lacrosse. I don't know about 7th grade HoCo but I know most 8th grade teams in the elite division have at least 1 and 1 team has 3. Yes - 3 young men who are 16 years old playing in an 8th grade division.

The age difference in teams for a class based league is way out of balance.