BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums NORTHEAST LACROSSE BOTC MAIN FORUM (LI, CT, WC) Boys 2024-7th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019

110% inaccurate statement. Stop with the verbal vomit! YOU do some homework and backup your BS statements. You will find some MD holdbacks at D1 because of the shear numbers of holdbacks in MD. There aren’t any on age kids to pick from because there aren’t any on age players in MD, so there is no other choice.

Conversely, there are very few LI holdbacks that are recruited to D1. Almost none. Absolute fact! Why? LI has almost no holdbacks. Why? Mostly because there are no prep schools on LI. So stop with the lies, and try answering the original question.

WHY DO MD TEAMS HAVE TO PLAY DOWN A MINIMUM OF ONE YEAR IF NOT TWO YEARS JUST TO BE ABLE TO COMPETE WITH LI TEAMS??

Obviously I already gave you the answer, but try to come up with something. Anything. Any spin you can think of, works for me.

MD 2024 teams = average LI 2023 teams. That sums up MD youth lacrosse.

So true. The obsession of these MD clubs to win now, is their ultimate weakness. How ironic. The business of youth sports. Buyer beware.

Yikes. I guess I hit a nerve. Take a look at D1 rosters or the all American lists. Check how many were turned 20 as freshman. Your most successful LI boys in college do PG years.

The problem starts with the parents. Clubs are going to take the best players at tryouts. If they're all holdbacks, that's what they'll take. Let's be honest here if Express or 91 was presented with 20 holdbacks at tryouts, they would take every one of them.

Good news, we don't generally hold back on Strong Island because we don't need to. Maryland will continue to be a poor, backwater area of the country because they can't win even if they game the system. Winners win and losers ... well, you know ... Once those kids grow up, realize lacrosse isn't a job that pays and have to enter the workforce, they'll be exceptionally well qualified blue-collar workers like ma and pa. Meanwhile, ma and pa are still broke from some ridiculous dream of lacrosse actually meaning something in the real world.

VERY lame attempt at some spin on this. To tell you the truth, I expected better. Your argument makes absolutely NO SENSE.

Your argument is based on post-high school players being a year older. Our argument is about holdbacks at the youth level. OBVIOUSLY some very successful players do PG's and/or red shirt their freshman year. Dah!

The overwhelming majority of the LI post-high school players that go D1 are proven "ON-AGE" players, NOT HOLDBACKS, during their youth.

They played ON-AGE through youth, ON-AGE through middle school and ON-AGE through high school. They established themselves as TOP TIER ON-AGE players through their high school years, without the assistance of having an unfair advantage throughout their entire lacrosse career, of being a year or two older than their peers.

AFTER they established themselves as top shelf, on-age players at the high school level, post-high school plans may or may not include a PG year or red shirt status, based on a host of different situations and circumstances.

So, do some on-age players do PG's after a successful high school? And are there red shirt freshman, for top on-age players? Of course. But these players were NOT HOLDBACKS during youth, now were they. They made their name the old fashion way, they EARNED it.

MD parents believe the misnomer... a lot of D1 players are a year older, so that must be the recipe for success and a D1 scholarship, so I'll start him late a year for kindergarten and/or I'll hold him back a year or even two during his youth, since that's how it works. My average athlete with average skills will be awesome playing kids a year or two younger than him. Yeah, that's the ticket!!

Sorry, wish it was that easy. Your average athlete will always be an average athlete, at best. That will never change. Average athletes don't become great athletes. They will always be average. There is no amount of holdback years that is going to change that.

Now, go back and come up with something at least on the subject matter. Try to stay focused, and on topic. That post is a serious contender for dumbest post of the week, and it's only Monday!

OMG this has to be a mom who wrote this. Nobody wants to labor through your 2 page nonsense. We just tune out probably like your husband does.

First of all, none the 24 LI teams can hang with madlax now a days. Express, Tax and WP use to be competitive but now madlax 24 is smoking express and Taz by 5 goals easy in shortened games and playing their third line the second half of the games. If WP ever comes out of hiding they’ll experience the same beatdown. But we know why you guys are hiding, don’t want to mess up that pre WYSL ranking with an absolutely embarrassing loss to Madlax. Can’t WAIT to play your boys once they get done playing hide and seek!

Oh jeez. The Madlax double holdback parent is bragging about his 2023/2022 team finally getting a single victory (albeit by only a couple of goals) over a 2024 LI team. Whooo whooo! Must have felt like winning the freak’n Super Bowl, actually beating a LI team (we won’t mention it’s 1-2 years younger. It’ll be our little secret). Enjoy the accomplishment, if you can call barely beating a far younger team an accomplishment, because next time it’s back to same ole same ole, like when Madlax 2023/2022 lost to 2024 Express at the NLF last year. Or like the many, many... losses to 91 Wolfpack over the years. Yup, your reality check is coming up real soon. One question: what’s it like losing to 1-2 year younger teams that are smaller, slower and weaker, especially when you cheat as hard as you guys do, just to beat kids 1-2 years younger than your team? It must really hurt, huh.

“First of all”, 2024 Express Long Island - 2018 NLF National Champpions - over 2023/2022 Madlax DC.

I’m sure your boys are use to the beat down from the younger LI teams, after all these years.

WHY DOES MADLAX HAVE TO PLAY DOWN ONE TO TWO YEARS JUST TO BE COMPETITIVE WITH LONG ISLAND TEAMS??

Actually, this is straight forward and makes perfect sense - not sure why you couldn't pick this up this PP's commentary. It does explain the size of some of the Madlax 2024 players (I don't think they are all holdbacks) who look much older than 7th graders. While they are bigger and faster, they look less skilled. It doesn't help that their coach/owner screams his head off to direct them on basic offball movement. They do win games so that's good. I am guessing by 10th grade, these advantages will all but vanish and they have nothing to rely on but so-so skills against kids who have been working hard and getting better.

Yup. It's a stinger, all right!

Agreed, except you are wrong about that team not be entirely holdbacks. Just because some of them aren’t the size of their newest behemoth, doesn’t mean they aren’t holdbacks. Think of their most skilled player. Small, right? A confirmed holdback. Think about it. The team is in DC. Everyone knows the reputation of DC and their public schools. The worst! There isn’t any family, with any sort of means, that’s going to subject their kids to that. Agreed? There are a whole lot of wealthy people that live and work there, correct? Does it make sense that their kids play lacrosse, still very much the sport of the privileged. Especially considering the cost of club lacrosse. You bet it does. And ask around, it’s well known, a lot of those parents are very wealthy. So we’ve established that all Madlax DC kids go to private school. In the district, kindergarten starts at 6, not 5 like most other schools. Check it out. It’s well known in that area. In fact, if you read the MD thread, it’s talked about openly. The only one that denies that is the one lone Madlax parent that does nothing but stir the pot. Literally every single kid on that team is at bare minimum a one year holdback. And some are double holdbacks. Read all the 2024 posts on both the MD and LI boards. MD parents openly admit to it. There’s just way too much information out there for them to deny it anymore, so they don’t. Except for the one guy, that is probably a kid.

Very little hope for any team competing with WP in WSYL.

They will beat Bandits scoring differential from 2018

In 2018 Bandits outscored opponents 96-39 over 8 games

And then you will come home and play NLF tournaments and get beaten down by the holdback teams just like the Bandits

You could be right. When teams play up a year, or in this case, two years, teams are not suppose to win, now are they? But, you know, based on history, I think the Pack will be just fine. I mean, all of the LI teams have been playing up every time they go to MD, which has been since 2nd grade. And as far as the Pack goes, very, very few 2023 holdback teams have beaten them, even just once. Against the oldest of all holdback teams, Madlax, they still enjoy a very lopsided winning record. Yes, Wolfpack is the winning-est 2024 team in the world. Plain and simple fact. So, yeah, I think they'll be just fine. You, on the other hand, are sh*tting yourself, at the thought of yet another Madlax defeat to another far younger LI team. But, you know, the real question isn't about Wolfpack or the LI teams, and how they play up all the time. It's about Madlax, and why they play down all the time. Why? Why can't a 2023/2022 beat any 2023 teams? Heck, they can't even play 2023 teams. Why?? Because they are a very average 2023 team (ooops, forgot about the 2022's again!). Your holdbacks = very average players. LI on age teams = extraordinary younger talent. Madlax playing down... flat out cowards. Shameful.

You, madlax parent, are hereby banished to your rightful BOTC board... take your pick, either the 2023 thread or the 2022 thread. This is the 2024 thread, therefore it does not apply to you.

Not a Madlax parent, and have no love for the holdback teams, just stating the obvious.

Bro, it's 2024, not 13U.

Funny how you are so righteous about WP when 91 is one of the founding members of the NLF. This is why holdbacks exist, because there is a place that welcomes them with open arms

Says the true 2023 Madlax parent, with 2022 holdbacks.

Is Suffolk County Community College a good school? How is their lacrosse program?

Bandits lost 1 game the entire summer and it took boys 2-3 years older you guys are a special type of crazy. wP will win just like the Bandits

Suffolk has a good JUCO program and they historically have had a lot of success with getting players to transfer to DI, II & III colleges. Academically, I do not know where they stand however, if somebody was just going for 2 years and then transfer to a 4 year school to finish their final 2-potentially 3 years, then the school is fine. I had friends transfer to a plethora of schools like St John's, Syracuse, Limestone, etc.

Put the Madlax parent (which I am not) aside and just address the issue. Arguably, the two most recognizable youth lacrosse programs in the county, 91 and Express, are both founding member of the NLF. Some of the most vocal people on this board are LI parents that constantly rail against the MD holdback/reclass teams. If this is such an important issue, which I agree it is, why don't the 91 and Express parents, the people that finance these clubs, make more of an issue directly with their own clubs. If 91 and Express were to make a move towards supporting the US lacrosse age-based model, other clubs would no doubt follow suit. Unfortunately, because of the fear that making a stand may jeopardize your son's spot on one of these teams, you remain silent, and therefore arguably complicit. I am not suggesting that I would act any differently as a parent, but just curious as to what others think. I completely agree that the holdbacks/reclass system is BS, a kid should play with their age group for youth lacrosse, A legitimate argument could be made that the age-based system should be phased out in high school, but not through 8th grade. An honest reply would be appreciated because I think that this is an important issue.

Does youth lacrosse really matter? I mean, in the grand scheme, does it? No. That's why it won't change.

Once these boys reach 8th grade, some of the better players start playing JV or Varsity and then it starts to matter. There is not a single college looking at a 6th or 7th grade player, especially since the changes last year. So in reality, it only matters to dad's who want to tell other people that their kid, or their kid's team, is the best. The club owners and tournament organizers are fully aware of this and they are making far too much money in the current system to rock the boat.

For the record, I'm an LI dad and my son is not a holdback. I also have an older son who played on age, but saw how the whole process played out with him. These boys will all be in the same recruiting class so, in my opinion, I have no problems with my smaller son playing against bigger players. It will make him better. And, when he hits puberty and hopefully catches up to those same players in size, he'll have developed the tools he needs to beat them.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, and I could not agree more. While I do not agree with parents holding their kids back, as I believe that it does nothing for the kid developmentally in the long run, I have no problem with my son playing them as it will only make him better when it counts.

hate to burst everyones bubble on long island but if you look at the rosters of most colleges there freshman are usually 19-20 yrs old.on top of that colleges are looking for the athletic kid 6 ft and taller. yes long island dominates youth lax and travels the best with the best team apparel on the parents sideline but it seems these kids struggle at the D1 level.

19 years old freshmen, yes. 20 years old, no. 19 year olds are not allowed to play in HS. Any 20 year olds went to a prep school after HS. I’d love to see those rosters, too. I’m not sure I believe you. Furthermore, are you implying that 19 year olds in Maryland are over 6’ while players the same on LI are shorter? It seems unlikely that your words are supported by facts.

Also notice Maryland isn't producing the best players anymore because their kids play down against younger players. Minus Pat Spencer who was under the radar NOT RECRUITED out of HS and not re classed The best players the past 6-8 years are NOT product of the hold backs

Wow.......since BOTC is fact based........ except for your dumb statement.....please indulge the thread with the facts that back up your statement.

There are a ton of 19 year olds playing HS lacrosse. As long as they don’t turn 19 before the cut off date, which is typically 8/1 or 9/1 of their senior year, which is determined by the state, they are good to go. I know, because I was one of those players. Contrary to what one person on here would like you to believe, that also means, depending upon where the Birthday is, many kids can be double holdbacks, as long as the birthday doesn’t happen before the cut off date. They would just be double holdbacks, on the younger side, but there is potentially a lot of players that are eligible for this. If you are from MD, I’m sure you already know this.

What exactly is “obvious” to you? Let’s talk facts. There are very few teams that have ever beaten Wolfpack. Only one team in MD has beaten them more than once, while most have never beaten them, even though everyone of those teams are a year older. And the one team that has beaten them more than once, has lost far more times than they’ve won. So what exactly is “obvious” to you, about the most successful team in 2024 history. That the team is now better than ever and will dominate 2024 lacrosse, like never before? So bring on your 2023’s, posing as 2024’s. They are in for a real treat this year.

Lets talk facts. you Guys need to grow up and stop gloating like children. You both have good teams . enough said.

Hmm, not sure those are facts as much as what you believe to be right.... loosely based on some facts. A fact is that WP lost to Laxachusetts Black at last years NLF.

Simple concept. Read the post. Then respond to the comments in the post. With me? Good. Now, let’s start over. Read the post. Comprehend the post. Then respond to the post, if you are so inclined.

Hmmm. Another jealous MD parent I see. It must eat at you, that our boys are so good, for so long, while being a year younger than all of our MD competition. Well, it’s 100% fact my friend. We’re most proud of the... most successful 2024 team in history. And we’re really anxious to build on that this year. Hope to see you soon.

Really? Holdbacks exist because of 91? The organization has been in existence 8 years. MD cornered the market on holdbacks for a lot longer than that, pal. How long has Madlax been in DC, where everyone that try’s out is a K holdback?

Heck of a try at spin though. But seriously, spin needs to be somewhat believable if it’s going to work. So it’s back to the drawing board for you, friend.

non intelligent 91 controls the tourneys.they take all of the money from teams full of hold backs.