Back Of The CAGE (BOTC) BOTC
Fall Season events are IN for Lacrosse players!!! | Join our Lacrosse Forum Community | Advertise & Generate more organic supporters for your business
BOTC GIRLS BOTC BOY BACK OF THE CAGE
BOTC GIRLS BOTC BOY MOST RECENT POSTS
Boys High School
by Anonymous -
BOTC GIRLS BOTC BOY Forum Statistics
Forums20
Topics3,813
Posts400,731
Members2,638
Most Online96,377
8 hours ago
BOTC GIRLS BOTC BOY FOLLOW US ON TWITTER
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 7 of 36 1 2 5 6 7 8 9 35 36
Re: Boys 2025-6th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Outlaws have a 2025 Tryouts this Tuesday

BOTC GIRLS BOTC BOY BACK OF THE CAGE SPONSORS

Re: Boys 2025-6th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Express invites are out.


What is the cost?


Come on, you know it is almost 5k! But the best news is that top 30 or so make the A team!


Actually I wasnt sure.
2024 I knew A team was close to 5k.
But 2026 was $3900-.

Is it defenitely 5k for 2025 Express Chan team?


3900. But when you add it all up it’s a pretty good value. I know you’ll get at least 10 tourneys, a ton of practice, all new gear to all players and no nickel and dime stuff.


It's an excellent value. 91 is $3800 plus a 3% processing fee, so it's the same price as Express. Express gets more gear, more and better tournaments and more practices with better coaching. All without 91 double dipping and sending their teams to their own crap tournaments with no competition. Express is better in every way.


91 coaching staff on the A team was top notch last year.

Re: Boys 2025-6th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Outlaws have a 2025 Tryouts this Tuesday


Whats the coaching staff?

Re: Boys 2025-6th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
That is not true. Express O’Reilly beat 24 cyclones every time they played them.

Re: Boys 2025-6th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
24 cyclowns are done
CC will try anything to keep his club afloat
Next will be free tryouts. With the amount of kids showing up
It might as well be a sign up sheettmuv3v

BOTC GIRLS BOTC BOY Sponsored Links
Re: Boys 2025-6th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Express invites are out.


What is the cost?


3900. But when you add it all up it’s a pretty good value. I know you’ll get at least 10 tourneys, a ton of practice, all new gear to all players and no nickel and dime stuff.


It's an excellent value. 91 is $3800 plus a 3% processing fee, so it's the same price as Express. Express gets more gear, more and better tournaments and more practices with better coaching. All without 91 double dipping and sending their teams to their own crap tournaments with no competition. Express is better in every way.


91 coaching staff on the A team was top notch last year.


Maybe. But not better than Chan. You can’t wish away a 10-3 loss at the last tournament of the year. It’s not a 1 goal loss. It’s not the beginning of the season. The top notch 91 coaching staff had a year to prepare your team. You’re paying the same price for an inferior product. The numbers don’t lie. You keep lying to yourself, I’ll be laughing all the way home from Denver next year.

Re: Boys 2025-6th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Originally Posted by Anonymous
That is not true. Express O’Reilly beat 24 cyclones every time they played them.


One thing I noticed is all the 2nd teams in the younger grades were a big step below. There was a time when the 2nd teams were hard to get on. But there is so many clubs and many parents, yes parents, you decide and stear the decision, as you should. And those parents choose any clubs A team vs a 2nd team even if the ability level is a coin flip. Ultimately, one of two things will happen, all clubs will have one team per grade or the pendulum will swing back and the larger clubs will develop 2nd teams. But it’s a whole new audience and these lax newbies and how they choose to place their kids will decide how clubs create teams.

Re: Boys 2025-6th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Originally Posted by Anonymous
That is not true. Express O’Reilly beat 24 cyclones every time they played them.


Sorry, they beat the 24 B team. They only played the 24 Cyclones once last summer and lost. I can post the tournament and score but I don't feel there is any need. Move on.

Re: Boys 2025-6th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Originally Posted by Anonymous
That is not true. Express O’Reilly beat 24 cyclones every time they played them.

O'Reilly never had a shot with that team. Chan pulled too many kids on the top team and left him with few travel ready players.

Re: Boys 2025-6th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
That is not true. Express O’Reilly beat 24 cyclones every time they played them.


Sorry, they beat the 24 B team. They only played the 24 Cyclones once last summer and lost. I can post the tournament and score but I don't feel there is any need. Move on.


Yes, Blaze was the B team. Buts if we are clarifying things, the Cyclones were not an A team other than in name.

BOTC GIRLS BOTC BOY Sponsored Links
Re: Boys 2025-6th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Express O'Reilly didn't beat cyclones once. They lost everytime they played. Including at Mitchel Field towards the end of the summer. They may have beat 24 Blaze who didn't win one game all summer.

Re: Boys 2025-6th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
As per Tourney Machine - Lax Clash in June LI Express 2025 O'Reilly - 1 vs 25 Lacrosse 2025 - 6

Re: Boys 2025-6th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Any word on the Viper Tryouts for this age group???

Re: Boys 2025-6th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Originally Posted by Anonymous
As per Tourney Machine - Lax Clash in June LI Express 2025 O'Reilly - 1 vs 25 Lacrosse 2025 - 6


Lol...the accept/decline ratio won’t suffer because of the confusion of Blaze vs Cyclones on a blog. Too many teams is the factor.

Re: Boys 2025-6th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
24 Cyclowns better take a screen shot of tourney machine
Because with what is going on this year I doubt if they will win any games at all this yea. But I’m sure CC will have the older kids play down just like last year, or guest players. It’s unusual for a team to wear tryout pinkies in the last tournament of the year

Re: Boys 2025-6th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Is there still going to be a 2025 Express Oreilly team this year?

Re: Boys 2025-6th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Express invites are out.


What is the cost?


3900. But when you add it all up it’s a pretty good value. I know you’ll get at least 10 tourneys, a ton of practice, all new gear to all players and no nickel and dime stuff.


It's an excellent value. 91 is $3800 plus a 3% processing fee, so it's the same price as Express. Express gets more gear, more and better tournaments and more practices with better coaching. All without 91 double dipping and sending their teams to their own crap tournaments with no competition. Express is better in every way.


91 coaching staff on the A team was top notch last year.


Maybe. But not better than Chan. You can’t wish away a 10-3 loss at the last tournament of the year. It’s not a 1 goal loss. It’s not the beginning of the season. The top notch 91 coaching staff had a year to prepare your team. You’re paying the same price for an inferior product. The numbers don’t lie. You keep lying to yourself, I’ll be laughing all the way home from Denver next year.


So glad you are keeping the scores and checking Tourney Machine as you post this, it's amusing. But you know your kid doesn't play and you won't be laughing much like you weren't laughing at Mitchel field.

And just as a reminder, next year Denver will have the 2024 kids. And the year after when the 2025 teams play in Denver your son will have a special seat so he can watch as Channey brings down every age eligible 2024 with a 2006 birthday he can find. It won't be cheating then, but your son will still have tears to dry.

Re: Boys 2025-6th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Out of all the 91 teams, guess which team has its tournament schedule revealed

Re: Boys 2025-6th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Very strategic, will it work

Re: Boys 2025-6th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Out of all the 91 teams, guess which team has its tournament schedule revealed


Hornets.
The 2025 B team.
Not really a challenging tournament schedule.
Most challenging one is LI Laxfest.
Even in the fall their going upstate, when reasonably there is plenty of tournaments on the island

Re: Boys 2025-6th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Out of all the 91 teams, guess which team has its tournament schedule revealed


So...what’s your point? They have haven’t really had a successful 2nd 2025 team in the past.

Re: Boys 2025-6th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
the first year of the ice team was the most talented, but that was the 2015/2016 season when GC was the coach, then all the kids left for A teams when the coach left. then the year after was a combo 3rd/4th grade team, then last year they had no team.

Re: Boys 2025-6th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Out of all the 91 teams, guess which team has its tournament schedule revealed


So...what’s your point? They have haven’t really had a successful 2nd 2025 team in the past.


Look at the tournament list. It's all 91 tournaments. They double dip on every one of them. Doesn't matter what is good for the team or the boys, only that 91 makes money on them. That's why they've never had a successful 2nd team. Greed. You can see they havent learned from their mistakes.

Re: Boys 2025-6th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Out of all the 91 teams, guess which team has its tournament schedule revealed


So...what’s your point? They have haven’t really had a successful 2nd 2025 team in the past.


Look at the tournament list. It's all 91 tournaments. They double dip on every one of them. Doesn't matter what is good for the team or the boys, only that 91 makes money on them. That's why they've never had a successful 2nd team. Greed. You can see they havent learned from their mistakes.


Holy cow they are all Mylacrosse tourneys. That’s funny.

Re: Boys 2025-6th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Out of all the 91 teams, guess which team has its tournament schedule revealed


So...what’s your point? They have haven’t really had a successful 2nd 2025 team in the past.


Look at the tournament list. It's all 91 tournaments. They double dip on every one of them. Doesn't matter what is good for the team or the boys, only that 91 makes money on them. That's why they've never had a successful 2nd team. Greed. You can see they havent learned from their mistakes.


Holy cow they are all Mylacrosse tourneys. That’s funny.


Trivia... what does the Hornets coach and the director for My lacrosse tourney have in common? I love travel lax. It’s so shameless at times in my opinion.

Re: Boys 2025-6th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Who is the director

Re: Boys 2025-6th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Who is the director

Captain obvious

Re: Boys 2025-6th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Out of all the 91 teams, guess which team has its tournament schedule revealed


So...what’s your point? They have haven’t really had a successful 2nd 2025 team in the past.


Look at the tournament list. It's all 91 tournaments. They double dip on every one of them. Doesn't matter what is good for the team or the boys, only that 91 makes money on them. That's why they've never had a successful 2nd team. Greed. You can see they havent learned from their mistakes.


Holy cow they are all Mylacrosse tourneys. That’s funny.


Trivia... what does the Hornets coach and the director for My lacrosse tourney have in common? I love travel lax. It’s so shameless at times in my opinion.


Wait - it get's better - he has to be at these tournaments anyway. He's coaching a travel team without giving up a single weekend he wasn't already working. Maximize that profit. Brilliant!

Re: Boys 2025-6th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Parents looking for a local introduction to travel lax will take an invite because they can go on with the rest of their lives unlike us who will be waiting to see what part of MD we will traveling to play each other

Re: Boys 2025-6th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Parents looking for a local introduction to travel lax will take an invite because they can go on with the rest of their lives unlike us who will be waiting to see what part of MD we will traveling to play each other


???

Re: Boys 2025-6th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Out of all the 91 teams, guess which team has its tournament schedule revealed


So...what’s your point? They have haven’t really had a successful 2nd 2025 team in the past.


Look at the tournament list. It's all 91 tournaments. They double dip on every one of them. Doesn't matter what is good for the team or the boys, only that 91 makes money on them. That's why they've never had a successful 2nd team. Greed. You can see they havent learned from their mistakes.


Holy cow they are all Mylacrosse tourneys. That’s funny.


Trivia... what does the Hornets coach and the director for My lacrosse tourney have in common? I love travel lax. It’s so shameless at times in my opinion.


Wait - it get's better - he has to be at these tournaments anyway. He's coaching a travel team without giving up a single weekend he wasn't already working. Maximize that profit. Brilliant!


Folks, what the heck are you chasing. Traveling 5 hrs. down the east cost to play 6th grade lacrosse? Take a step back and look at it. The worst lie you tell is the one you tell yourself...

Re: Boys 2025-6th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Out of all the 91 teams, guess which team has its tournament schedule revealed


So...what’s your point? They have haven’t really had a successful 2nd 2025 team in the past.


Look at the tournament list. It's all 91 tournaments. They double dip on every one of them. Doesn't matter what is good for the team or the boys, only that 91 makes money on them. That's why they've never had a successful 2nd team. Greed. You can see they havent learned from their mistakes.


Holy cow they are all Mylacrosse tourneys. That’s funny.


Trivia... what does the Hornets coach and the director for My lacrosse tourney have in common? I love travel lax. It’s so shameless at times in my opinion.


Wait - it get's better - he has to be at these tournaments anyway. He's coaching a travel team without giving up a single weekend he wasn't already working. Maximize that profit. Brilliant!


So the guy takes a B team and then he posts the tournament and winter practice schedule not hiding anything and he enters his team into appropriate tournaments for a B Team and you guys are ripping him? You can't win. Put this one down in the no good deed goes unpunished category.

Re: Boys 2025-6th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Don’t kid yourself, Blast will be at all the 91 run tournaments as well. Yes, NLF is a 91 run tournament.

Re: Boys 2025-6th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
They should charge $2500 for this team. First year and they aren't paying any tourney entry fees. Otherwise its a total money grab.

Re: Boys 2025-6th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
My son has been playing on a decent 2024 team. At tryouts this year I noticed a couple of the 2023's working in. Turns out these 2 2023's have dob's that allow them to play down for the qualifier and WSYL if we qualify .However even with these 2 players I don't think we will. I am totally fine with this practice as my son also has a late dob born in Oct. 2006. .....last year I watched many of the 2025 top teams play and my son would be a top player on any of those teams. Next year when this all starts to transpire at this 2025 group, Will the top teams practice this? And how do the on grade parents feel about it?

Re: Boys 2025-6th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Out of all the 91 teams, guess which team has its tournament schedule revealed


So...what’s your point? They have haven’t really had a successful 2nd 2025 team in the past.


Look at the tournament list. It's all 91 tournaments. They double dip on every one of them. Doesn't matter what is good for the team or the boys, only that 91 makes money on them. That's why they've never had a successful 2nd team. Greed. You can see they havent learned from their mistakes.


Holy cow they are all Mylacrosse tourneys. That’s funny.


Trivia... what does the Hornets coach and the director for My lacrosse tourney have in common? I love travel lax. It’s so shameless at times in my opinion.


Wait - it get's better - he has to be at these tournaments anyway. He's coaching a travel team without giving up a single weekend he wasn't already working. Maximize that profit. Brilliant!


So the guy takes a B team and then he posts the tournament and winter practice schedule not hiding anything and he enters his team into appropriate tournaments for a B Team and you guys are ripping him? You can't win. Put this one down in the no good deed goes unpunished category.


It's not a good deed when it is completely self-serving. It is self-serving. Even a 91 fanboy like yourself has to admit that.

Re: Boys 2025-6th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Originally Posted by Anonymous
My son has been playing on a decent 2024 team. At tryouts this year I noticed a couple of the 2023's working in. Turns out these 2 2023's have dob's that allow them to play down for the qualifier and WSYL if we qualify .However even with these 2 players I don't think we will. I am totally fine with this practice as my son also has a late dob born in Oct. 2006. .....last year I watched many of the 2025 top teams play and my son would be a top player on any of those teams. Next year when this all starts to transpire at this 2025 group, Will the top teams practice this? And how do the on grade parents feel about it?


You already posted this on Aug 8. And people tesponded then.
Why are you posting the same thing again.

Prior post quote:
" My son is a young 2024 his DOB is Oct 2006. We did not hold him back. He is a real good 2024 but has some trouble with the older maturer boys on the top AA teams.I see some of the younger 2023's trying out for the 2024's to go to WSYL. I am fine with what those boys are doing. Last year I found myself watching many of the top 2025 teams. My son would be an added addition to any of those top teams. I know mys sons club wants him to play there next tear. But are all the clubs on board with this?"

Seems like your making up a story and trying to drag into forum the holdback debate.

Re: Boys 2025-6th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Originally Posted by Anonymous
My son has been playing on a decent 2024 team. At tryouts this year I noticed a couple of the 2023's working in. Turns out these 2 2023's have dob's that allow them to play down for the qualifier and WSYL if we qualify .However even with these 2 players I don't think we will. I am totally fine with this practice as my son also has a late dob born in Oct. 2006. .....last year I watched many of the 2025 top teams play and my son would be a top player on any of those teams. Next year when this all starts to transpire at this 2025 group, Will the top teams practice this? And how do the on grade parents feel about it?

Look my son is awesome. Tell me how awesome you think he is....

Re: Boys 2025-6th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
My son has been playing on a decent 2024 team. At tryouts this year I noticed a couple of the 2023's working in. Turns out these 2 2023's have dob's that allow them to play down for the qualifier and WSYL if we qualify .However even with these 2 players I don't think we will. I am totally fine with this practice as my son also has a late dob born in Oct. 2006. .....last year I watched many of the 2025 top teams play and my son would be a top player on any of those teams. Next year when this all starts to transpire at this 2025 group, Will the top teams practice this? And how do the on grade parents feel about it?


You already posted this on Aug 8. And people tesponded then.
Why are you posting the same thing again.

Prior post quote:
" My son is a young 2024 his DOB is Oct 2006. We did not hold him back. He is a real good 2024 but has some trouble with the older maturer boys on the top AA teams.I see some of the younger 2023's trying out for the 2024's to go to WSYL. I am fine with what those boys are doing. Last year I found myself watching many of the top 2025 teams. My son would be an added addition to any of those top teams. I know mys sons club wants him to play there next tear. But are all the clubs on board with this?"

Seems like your making up a story and trying to drag into forum the holdback debate.

sorry that was not me... 1st time on this thread. But looks like there are other fall dob's non hold backs in same position. I will look back to that date for responses to a similar question.

Re: Boys 2025-6th Grade Fall 2018/Summer 2019
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
My son has been playing on a decent 2024 team. At tryouts this year I noticed a couple of the 2023's working in. Turns out these 2 2023's have dob's that allow them to play down for the qualifier and WSYL if we qualify .However even with these 2 players I don't think we will. I am totally fine with this practice as my son also has a late dob born in Oct. 2006. .....last year I watched many of the 2025 top teams play and my son would be a top player on any of those teams. Next year when this all starts to transpire at this 2025 group, Will the top teams practice this? And how do the on grade parents feel about it?


You already posted this on Aug 8. And people tesponded then.
Why are you posting the same thing again.

Prior post quote:
" My son is a young 2024 his DOB is Oct 2006. We did not hold him back. He is a real good 2024 but has some trouble with the older maturer boys on the top AA teams.I see some of the younger 2023's trying out for the 2024's to go to WSYL. I am fine with what those boys are doing. Last year I found myself watching many of the top 2025 teams. My son would be an added addition to any of those top teams. I know mys sons club wants him to play there next tear. But are all the clubs on board with this?"

Seems like your making up a story and trying to drag into forum the holdback debate.

sorry that was not me... 1st time on this thread. But looks like there are other fall dob's non hold backs in same position. I will look back to that date for responses to a similar question.


I really doubt your not the same person.
Both posts have virtually same info and the post is written progessivelly the same way.
Lets be real.

Page 7 of 36 1 2 5 6 7 8 9 35 36

Link Copied to Clipboard












Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4