BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums NORTHEAST LACROSSE BOTC MAIN FORUM (LI, CT, WC) Boys 2024 - 6th Grade Fall 2017/Summer 2018

that is correct. 9/01/2005 anyone before that is a hold back. 10/31/2005 for football ...

There are too many that have done this before when their kids where very young. Most summer birthdays. Has USA LAX grandfathered through 2027? Isnt that the start of 100% age based??

So now we have a new classification of Holdback... Silly lax folks...... Now a"lax holdback" is anything before Sept. 1. Go tickle yourself.


What a joke. Whatever you parents wanna call it is fine by me.. The math doesn't lie and everyone knows.. Not getting over on ANYONE....

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Let me ask you a question. Your child is in preK or nursery and a late summer birthday, and you get posed the question. Do you want your child to be the youngest in the class or the oldest? ALL research points to be the older. For many different reasons...the last of which is freaking grade school travel lacrosse.
So now you are here. What do you do? Play with kids in your grade, and are your good buddies? Or go to a brand new grade and play with kids that you dont know. Cant carpool. Etc etc etc.

This being said, my son is not a difference maker. He loves playing with his buddies. And wants to go to practice every day. And yes, he is on one of the "top 5" teams.

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Let me ask you a question. Your child is in preK or nursery and a late summer birthday, and you get posed the question. Do you want your child to be the youngest in the class or the oldest? ALL research points to be the older. For many different reasons...the last of which is freaking grade school travel lacrosse.
So now you are here. What do you do? Play with kids in your grade, and are your good buddies? Or go to a brand new grade and play with kids that you dont know. Cant carpool. Etc etc etc.

This being said, my son is not a difference maker. He loves playing with his buddies. And wants to go to practice every day. And yes, he is on one of the "top 5" teams.
[/quote ]There is nothing wrong with that at all. how about this .... your child is born 11/25 or 11/26 , 11/27 2005 etc. is 1 month and a couple of days older then a child born jan .1. 2006 does that 1 month make a huge difference? Does it make the 2005 kid so much better? Now a child born January 1 2006 and a child born 11/30 2006 is a 10 month difference same year Does that make a huge difference? If you complain about a hold back than they way you are looking at things is wrong. Otherwise we should make teams based on 3 month intervals. get the point. If your kid is a good Athlete he will compete just fine. and in 2 years will make absolutely no difference. So stop all the complaining. it will all work out in the end

I'll answer that with a question: What does your child do with EVERY OTHER SPORT??

So, the basis of your counterargument is because it is unreasonable/unrealistic to do 3 month interval levels, then don't do anything more reasonable to improve the system. Got it!

The above poster makes good sense- not used to that on this site.

the basis of my argument is theat everyone claims holdbacks have a huge advantage . I Am simply saying that months do not make much of a difference. People claim the numbers don’t lie ; where are these numbers. Fact is all kids grow at different paces, there are plenty of kids that are younger that play above kids that are older: Bottom line , a kid that is held back a grade does not make him a great athlete or lacrosse player. Plenty of holdbacks that are not that good : plenty of younger boys that are great. Just an excuse and something to complain about.

Point taken but when does 11/25 become 10/25 then 9/25 then 8/25. You need some kind of a cut off. At the same time Im pretty sure the NCAA isnt going to listen to freshman complain about playing against seniors so if college lax is "your" goal what does it matter?

Happy holidays!

There are plenty of studies that speak to the inherent differences in ability of prepubescent equal aged athletes, and the amplification of those differences when you begin to mix ages, especially between prepubescent and pubescent ages, so the science is clearly in conflict with your assessment on "difference". . . and why every other major sport has already gone age-based! This latter point cannot be emphasized enough - this entire topic has been thoroughly vetted already by all of these other sports. Why do people think lacrosse is somehow is different and that an entirely different and contradictory mindset is applicable?! It's the absolute dumbest thought process ever! There is zero negative consequences to going age-based for pre-HS ages, while there are legion of reasons why a grade-based system is flawed. It's not even close to being a debatable topics ON THE MERITTS!

Wrong!! In most cases it is not just a couple of months. most cases its over 1yr. and then it snowballs into double hold backs and reclassification's.... What parents are asking for is just some kind of age enforced cuttoff. I do not know one parent who has not come away from at least one most times every tournament and say wow did you see some of those boys??? They were older!!!

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Let me ask you a question. Your child is in preK or nursery and a late summer birthday, and you get posed the question. Do you want your child to be the youngest in the class or the oldest? ALL research points to be the older. For many different reasons...the last of which is freaking grade school travel lacrosse.
So now you are here. What do you do? Play with kids in your grade, and are your good buddies? Or go to a brand new grade and play with kids that you dont know. Cant carpool. Etc etc etc.

This being said, my son is not a difference maker. He loves playing with his buddies. And wants to go to practice every day. And yes, he is on one of the "top 5" teams.
[/quote ]There is nothing wrong with that at all. how about this .... your child is born 11/25 or 11/26 , 11/27 2005 etc. is 1 month and a couple of days older then a child born jan .1. 2006 does that 1 month make a huge difference? Does it make the 2005 kid so much better? Now a child born January 1 2006 and a child born 11/30 2006 is a 10 month difference same year Does that make a huge difference? If you complain about a hold back than they way you are looking at things is wrong. Otherwise we should make teams based on 3 month intervals. get the point. If your kid is a good Athlete he will compete just fine. and in 2 years will make absolutely no difference. So stop all the complaining. it will all work out in the end
[/quote]

So, the basis of your counterargument is because it is unreasonable/unrealistic to do 3 month interval levels, then don't do anything more reasonable to improve the system. Got it![/quote] the basis of my argument is theat everyone claims holdbacks have a huge advantage . I Am simply saying that months do not make much of a difference. People claim the numbers don’t lie ; where are these numbers. Fact is all kids grow at different paces, there are plenty of kids that are younger that play above kids that are older: Bottom line , a kid that is held back a grade does not make him a great athlete or lacrosse player. Plenty of holdbacks that are not that good : plenty of younger boys that are great. Just an excuse and something to complain about.
[/quote]
Wrong!! In most cases it is not just a couple of months. most cases its over 1yr. and then it snowballs into double hold backs and reclassification's.... What parents are asking for is just some kind of age enforced cuttoff. I do not know one parent who has not come away from at least one most times every tournament and say wow did you see some of those boys??? They were older!!![/quote]

You think it's bad now, wait for next year and the year after for the 2024s! My 2021 son played in a tourney in DE 2 seasons ago where every starter on the opposing team was at or close to 6' tall, and with a G whose head was above the crossbar . . . for what was then a "7th Grade" Team! Besides the size, a majority of them had already reached the point where they were shaving (or not shaving, which is why we all could tell!), so it was painfully obvious that none of these boys were "on-age" 7th graders. Pretty much the same thing played out with most of the rest of my son's team's opponents for the rest of the weekend - all teams from MD and PA.

So, the basis of your counterargument is because it is unreasonable/unrealistic to do 3 month interval levels, then don't do anything more reasonable to improve the system. Got it![/quote] the basis of my argument is theat everyone claims holdbacks have a huge advantage . I Am simply saying that months do not make much of a difference. People claim the numbers don’t lie ; where are these numbers. Fact is all kids grow at different paces, there are plenty of kids that are younger that play above kids that are older: Bottom line , a kid that is held back a grade does not make him a great athlete or lacrosse player. Plenty of holdbacks that are not that good : plenty of younger boys that are great. Just an excuse and something to complain about.
[/quote]
Wrong!! In most cases it is not just a couple of months. most cases its over 1yr. and then it snowballs into double hold backs and reclassification's.... What parents are asking for is just some kind of age enforced cuttoff. I do not know one parent who has not come away from at least one most times every tournament and say wow did you see some of those boys??? They were older!!![/quote]

You think it's bad now, wait for next year and the year after for the 2024s! My 2021 son played in a tourney in DE 2 seasons ago where every starter on the opposing team was at or close to 6' tall, and with a G whose head was above the crossbar . . . for what was then a "7th Grade" Team! Besides the size, a majority of them had already reached the point where they were shaving (or not shaving, which is why we all could tell!), so it was painfully obvious that none of these boys were "on-age" 7th graders. Pretty much the same thing played out with most of the rest of my son's team's opponents for the rest of the weekend - all teams from MD and PA.[/quote] you are talking about , kids playing down when they are clearly older. buy mor than a year. Big difference. 8th grader vs a 6th grader much different. that should not be tolerated.

the basis of my argument is theat everyone claims holdbacks have a huge advantage . I Am simply saying that months do not make much of a difference. People claim the numbers don’t lie ; where are these numbers. Fact is all kids grow at different paces, there are plenty of kids that are younger that play above kids that are older: Bottom line , a kid that is held back a grade does not make him a great athlete or lacrosse player. Plenty of holdbacks that are not that good : plenty of younger boys that are great. Just an excuse and something to complain about.
[/quote]
Wrong!! In most cases it is not just a couple of months. most cases its over 1yr. and then it snowballs into double hold backs and reclassification's.... What parents are asking for is just some kind of age enforced cuttoff. I do not know one parent who has not come away from at least one most times every tournament and say wow did you see some of those boys??? They were older!!![/quote]

You think it's bad now, wait for next year and the year after for the 2024s! My 2021 son played in a tourney in DE 2 seasons ago where every starter on the opposing team was at or close to 6' tall, and with a G whose head was above the crossbar . . . for what was then a "7th Grade" Team! Besides the size, a majority of them had already reached the point where they were shaving (or not shaving, which is why we all could tell!), so it was painfully obvious that none of these boys were "on-age" 7th graders. Pretty much the same thing played out with most of the rest of my son's team's opponents for the rest of the weekend - all teams from MD and PA.[/quote] you are talking about , kids playing down when they are clearly older. buy mor than a year. Big difference. 8th grader vs a 6th grader much different. that should not be tolerated.
[/quote]

"you are talking about , kids playing down when they are clearly older. buy mor than a year. Big difference." That is the whole basis of this holdback/reclass debate - boys playing down. That is what a holdback is! Yes, a two year holdback/reclass is the worst scenario, but it's part of the overall problem of holdbacks in general - how is that a "Big Difference"??

So it’s ok to cheat, as long as you only cheat a little bit

Not even sure what to make of the phrase “double holdback”. My son was held back in kindergarten (i assure you it was not for lacrosse). If he were to become a “double holdback” and repeat another year, he’d be ineligible to play in the Washington or Baltimore private school leagues by his senior year (which are supposedly the king of the holdbacks). Not sure what the LI rules are. Not saying it’s not an advantage, by the way, but it is limited. Also when you hit puberty matters, so does natural size and speed, and AA teams tend to attract those types which maybe amplifies the difference for parents of smaller kids or late blooming kids.

The whole "double holdback" argument is an urban-myth. My kids have been playing lacrosse for well over a decade now, and I have yet to encounter a double holdback. Yes, it is true that the age cutoff for most of the country outside the LI area is 9/1. And yes, it is true that most of the top, most prestigious independent schools strongly encourage boys with summer birthdays (and by summer, I really mean July or August) to do pre-K or kindergarten x2. Trust me, it had nothing to do with lacrosse. (BTW, if you read Outlier, and you were going the private school route, you would have held back your son too.) When your son plays grade-based lacrosse, it is not cheating to play with his grade. What young boy wouldn't want to play with his friends from school, instead of a bunch of strangers from the grade above?

Forget about the school aspect of it - it has everything to do with club.

I agree with that point. Def. Amplifies the situation.

it’s not cheating, my kid is one of the younger players and is just fine keeps up with everyone he plays against . Just to many cry baby parents out there . How can you cheat if it’s not a rule. So stupid . Been like this for years . Parents are the biggest problem with sports today. Holdbacks are not the reason your kid is not performing.

Give it two years when puberty hits and let's see if you feel the same way. Huge differences between a younger 13 year old and a 14/15 year old... I have seen it firsthand with the 2020's and 2021's. It's a real game changer and not a level playing field at that age.

"Parents are the biggest problem with sports today. " Yup - they're the ones deciding to have their kids holdback.

That's where you are wrong. Just because your kid is small, doesn't mean that everyone else in this world is a cheater. If you were to examine all the 2024 club lacrosse rosters in the country, 95% of them don't have any boys older than July 2005. And for 100% of those boys with July or August 2005 birthdays, it was a school-related decision that was made when the kid was 4. Even if your kid was born late 2006, they should be able to hang with kids born mid-2005. If not, drop down to a B team, and give it a rest. Because once your kid gets to high school, he is going to have to play grade-based anyway.

" Because once your kid gets to high school, he is going to have to play grade-based anyway." = most overused and painfully ignorant statement on this topic on BOTC.

stop crying. Same guy all the time . Long Island lacrosse is not your prob. It’s Maryland. We rule!,,

Really? Not when it is age based. Not even close.... Maryland has to hod them back so they can compete with LI boys that are younger than them. Sad, but true,

WSYL Results
2015 - 91 Smash - Long Island
2016 - Legacy - Long Island
2017 - LI Express - Long Island

Facts don't lie. Sorry folks.

Sorry but unfortunately colleges coaches love the holdbacks. Just look at any of the rosters. The last 3 kids who committed to ND as 2019s are all doing a PG year. Two of the kids were already holdbacks. They will be 20 year old freshman

^^^^^^
= someone who doesn't know how to respond on this site. Really folks - how hard is it??!

What Rules? That's the problem! there are NO rules that are enforced. I do not feel its crying when an educated ethical parent just wants some rules put in place . I don't care what the age date requirement there is. Just as long as it is followed.

agree with that

The liability will be couched in the use of a grade-base system - by virtue of using grades, USL, along with all of the other more direct parties, will have created an inherently unsafe and/or dangerous situation whereby players of disparate ages are playing against each other in a full contact sport. Further, despite USL age guidelines, there is no attempt to govern these guidelines, and any players who are more than one year above age for their grade are already in violation of the guidelines. And from practical application, no one (!) at any level attempts to validate even players' grade levels - not teams, not tournaments, not the USL. There are players playing down 2 years from their 'normal on-age' level based upon the proclamation that they "intend to" do a PG year![/quote]

As to liability issues, assumption of risk is part of the analysis. At present, parents are putting their kids on the field while having no idea how old (or young) their opponents are. So it would be hard to defend these claims with an assumption of the risk defense. There is never any disclosure as to the age of the opponents or those participating in an event. Moreover, as has already been mentioned, no one in travel lacrosse - not clubs, not tournaments - requests verification of grade or age. This appears to be negligent in and of itself. No one exchanges rosters. There are no game sheets. Youth lacrosse tournaments are completely lawless and quite seriously unlike any other youth sporting event I have ever known.

Moreover, the toxic environments on sidelines negatively affects parent's prospective of the legitimacy and transparency of the competition. Everyone just assumes that a big, fast and skilled kid must be years older, when sometimes he really isn't.

Something is wrong with a sport when teams are supposed to be at the same level, grade-wise, but almost to a man one team is bigger than the other. This NEVER happens in age based sports. You can travel up and down the east coast with your kid playing soccer, hockey and baseball, and teams from every state will have basically the same average size as every other team. Some teams will have some freakishly big kids, but its balanced out by the small kids on the team. And everyone is fine with the freakishly big kid because they know his birth certificate is on file with the national (or state) organization, his name is on the roster submitted to same, and it would be easy to determine if cheating were involved.

Youth sports certainly has a win-at-all-costs side to it, but you would be surprised at how little cheating really occurs when everyone has confidence that the rules are being followed by everyone and that there are controls in place making it likely that cheaters will be caught. Stated differently, coaches and parents that cheat in youth sports in issues of eligibility really don't want to do it. They just think they have to in order to balance out cheating done by others. Left confident that no one else cheats, coaches and parents rarely do.

Funny that you losers are crying about holdbacks for 6th graders.

Madlax 2024 has ZERO holdbacks, and we pummel you guys every time. Love the whining. Keep it up.

def A kid. madlox HAS 8 holdBACKS 1 DOUBLE

Madlax kid is pretty weak for a 2022

First of all here's my disclaimer, I have a kid born middle of school year so I have no particular interest in dispelling the holdback phenomenon that is sweeping the lax community. To be realistic once your kid hits 7th grade he will forever be playing against kids who are older, bigger, .stronger and probably faster than he is. And I don't think it's much of a stretch to state by time a kid turns 17-18 he's already reached his max growth and physical potential. So at that point does it really matter as to when his exact birthday is. If your kid is good he will be successful...

Jealousy.

Jealousy? No; it is a real issue. Why doesn’t Madlax compete in WSYL?

because WSYL is a money maker for someone else and not a true independent event.