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Re: Crabs Lacrosse / Baltimore Lacrosse Club
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they cant play in denver in july because of the hold backs--- Nobody from Maryland, DC, or Philly plays in Devner. It is just the Long Island championship and they even have to cut kids from the team for the week to do so - causing a lot of team turmoil. I can't understand why a tournament with such weak competition gets so much publicity. It's hard to understand things when you know nothing about it I can see the teams at wsyl and compare the to teams at Nlf Summer Series and Millon 2022 championship and see that the teams at wsyl are much worse overall. What am I missing?
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Rosters are trickling in on the Crabs site. 2022 has a 21 Club Blue Hold back and also a 22 B team FCA kid signed up. Crabs adding kids from FCA's B team now? Sounds about right. A kid who played for his entire teenage lacrosse career on FCA's 2018 "B Team" committed to Johns Hopkins and another just committed to UNC. I'm sure there are more that I don't know about. Cool thing was, they committed as rising seniors instead of being asked to make a life long decision about college at 14 years old. Kids hung in there, developed their game, worked hard, stood out and are now moving on to great schools that have high-powered lacrosse programs. Guess sometimes it pays to not buy into the hype about "AAA" teams and 13 year old college commits. Good luck. You've got a long way to go. The ride should be enjoyable.
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Rosters are trickling in on the Crabs site. 2022 has a 21 Club Blue Hold back and also a 22 B team FCA kid signed up. Crabs adding kids from FCA's B team now? Sounds about right. A kid who played for his entire teenage lacrosse career on FCA's 2018 "B Team" committed to Johns Hopkins and another just committed to UNC. I'm sure there are more that I don't know about. Cool thing was, they committed as rising seniors instead of being asked to make a life long decision about college at 14 years old. Kids hung in there, developed their game, worked hard, stood out and are now moving on to great schools that have high-powered lacrosse programs. Guess sometimes it pays to not buy into the hype about "AAA" teams and 13 year old college commits. Good luck. You've got a long way to go. The ride should be enjoyable. Great! Excellent examples of kids working hard to achieve their goals no matter what label someone put on them.
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Re: Crabs Lacrosse / Baltimore Lacrosse Club
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"A kid who played for his entire teenage lacrosse career on FCA's 2018 "B Team" committed to Johns Hopkins and another just committed to UNC."
FCA folded their 2018 B/White team last year, so he couldn't have played for them his whole teenage lacrosse career. Some of the boys on 2018 White made the 2018 Blue team, but others had to find a new club as they entered their junior year. But either way, congrats to him and the UNC commit. It's great to hear real life examples that the hype of how many A's your team has doesn't always matter.
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Re: Crabs Lacrosse / Baltimore Lacrosse Club
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3 went to looneys... (3) to 91... (3) FVC.. (2) club blue. We all know what the problem is. "Flat brim" 4 went to Looneys.... The whole staff was a problem .... also 1 went to FCA......Crabs management/coaching blew up their own program. Those kids won many of their games in spite of the circus on the sidelines. "Flat brim" made decisions detrimental to the team just to protect his kid. Head coach had some communication issues. Then the tryouts, that BM promised would be "blind", were pretty much determined before the tryouts started. And they involved last year's coaches who injected their biases to their evaluations. Whole thing handled poorly and unprofessionally. So badly, in fact, that an apology e-mail had to be sent out. Most of the kids who did not return - the majority of the team - had already decided at the end of last season that they would not return. On a positive note, the diluted talent to those local teams will make for some fun, competitive games this season!
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Re: Crabs Lacrosse / Baltimore Lacrosse Club
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Wow... Half of the Crabs 2023 team just went elsewhere. What the [lacrosse] happened there? What a shame! Sometimes you just have to cut the cancers out. Sounds like the players were not the problem. Half the team?Maybe a gut check for the coaches and the club may be in order yes. this.
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3 went to looneys... (3) to 91... (3) FVC.. (2) club blue. We all know what the problem is. "Flat brim" 4 went to Looneys.... The whole staff was a problem .... also 1 went to FCA......Crabs management/coaching blew up their own program. Those kids won many of their games in spite of the circus on the sidelines. "Flat brim" made decisions detrimental to the team just to protect his kid. Head coach had some communication issues. Then the tryouts, that BM promised would be "blind", were pretty much determined before the tryouts started. And they involved last year's coaches who injected their biases to their evaluations. Whole thing handled poorly and unprofessionally. So badly, in fact, that an apology e-mail had to be sent out. Most of the kids who did not return - the majority of the team - had already decided at the end of last season that they would not return. On a positive note, the diluted talent to those local teams will make for some fun, competitive games this season! The one who is going to FCA is on his 4th team in 4 years. His Dad is a problem on the sidelines and was asked to leave. This one in particular had nothing to do with Flat Brim.
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3 went to looneys... (3) to 91... (3) FVC.. (2) club blue. We all know what the problem is. "Flat brim" 4 went to Looneys.... The whole staff was a problem .... also 1 went to FCA......Crabs management/coaching blew up their own program. Those kids won many of their games in spite of the circus on the sidelines. "Flat brim" made decisions detrimental to the team just to protect his kid. Head coach had some communication issues. Then the tryouts, that BM promised would be "blind", were pretty much determined before the tryouts started. And they involved last year's coaches who injected their biases to their evaluations. Whole thing handled poorly and unprofessionally. So badly, in fact, that an apology e-mail had to be sent out. Most of the kids who did not return - the majority of the team - had already decided at the end of last season that they would not return. On a positive note, the diluted talent to those local teams will make for some fun, competitive games this season! The one who is going to FCA is on his 4th team in 4 years. His Dad is a problem on the sidelines and was asked to leave. This one in particular had nothing to do with Flat Brim. Yeah, can't deny this.
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Re: Crabs Lacrosse / Baltimore Lacrosse Club
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3 went to looneys... (3) to 91... (3) FVC.. (2) club blue. We all know what the problem is. "Flat brim" 4 went to Looneys.... The whole staff was a problem .... also 1 went to FCA......Crabs management/coaching blew up their own program. Those kids won many of their games in spite of the circus on the sidelines. "Flat brim" made decisions detrimental to the team just to protect his kid. Head coach had some communication issues. Then the tryouts, that BM promised would be "blind", were pretty much determined before the tryouts started. And they involved last year's coaches who injected their biases to their evaluations. Whole thing handled poorly and unprofessionally. So badly, in fact, that an apology e-mail had to be sent out. Most of the kids who did not return - the majority of the team - had already decided at the end of last season that they would not return. On a positive note, the diluted talent to those local teams will make for some fun, competitive games this season! The one who is going to FCA is on his 4th team in 4 years. His Dad is a problem on the sidelines and was asked to leave. This one in particular had nothing to do with Flat Brim. Yeah, can't deny this. No way Kelly will put up with this if in fact true.
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Re: Crabs Lacrosse / Baltimore Lacrosse Club
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3 went to looneys... (3) to 91... (3) FVC.. (2) club blue. We all know what the problem is. "Flat brim" 4 went to Looneys.... The whole staff was a problem .... also 1 went to FCA......Crabs management/coaching blew up their own program. Those kids won many of their games in spite of the circus on the sidelines. "Flat brim" made decisions detrimental to the team just to protect his kid. Head coach had some communication issues. Then the tryouts, that BM promised would be "blind", were pretty much determined before the tryouts started. And they involved last year's coaches who injected their biases to their evaluations. Whole thing handled poorly and unprofessionally. So badly, in fact, that an apology e-mail had to be sent out. Most of the kids who did not return - the majority of the team - had already decided at the end of last season that they would not return. On a positive note, the diluted talent to those local teams will make for some fun, competitive games this season! The one who is going to FCA is on his 4th team in 4 years. His Dad is a problem on the sidelines and was asked to leave. This one in particular had nothing to do with Flat Brim. Yeah, can't deny this. No way Kelly will put up with this if in fact true. 100% true. Will be fun to see how Kelly deals with it.
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Re: Crabs Lacrosse / Baltimore Lacrosse Club
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So half the 2022 and 2023 team left. Seems like there were a lot of yellow helmets at other club's 2024 tryouts as well.
What has happened to Crabs? Is it as simple as it's not worth the BS that comes with playing for that club with so many other good options out there now?
How long before RM pulls a Coach K and suddenly develops back problems which keep him from coaching the 22's?
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Re: Crabs Lacrosse / Baltimore Lacrosse Club
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3 went to looneys... (3) to 91... (3) FVC.. (2) club blue. We all know what the problem is. "Flat brim" 4 went to Looneys.... The whole staff was a problem .... also 1 went to FCA......Crabs management/coaching blew up their own program. Those kids won many of their games in spite of the circus on the sidelines. "Flat brim" made decisions detrimental to the team just to protect his kid. Head coach had some communication issues. Then the tryouts, that BM promised would be "blind", were pretty much determined before the tryouts started. And they involved last year's coaches who injected their biases to their evaluations. Whole thing handled poorly and unprofessionally. So badly, in fact, that an apology e-mail had to be sent out. Most of the kids who did not return - the majority of the team - had already decided at the end of last season that they would not return. On a positive note, the diluted talent to those local teams will make for some fun, competitive games this season! Doesn't matter much... there are plenty of 13 and 14 year old kids to fill his 2023 roster. Total joke.
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Re: Crabs Lacrosse / Baltimore Lacrosse Club
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3 went to looneys... (3) to 91... (3) FVC.. (2) club blue. We all know what the problem is. "Flat brim" 4 went to Looneys.... The whole staff was a problem .... also 1 went to FCA......Crabs management/coaching blew up their own program. Those kids won many of their games in spite of the circus on the sidelines. "Flat brim" made decisions detrimental to the team just to protect his kid. Head coach had some communication issues. Then the tryouts, that BM promised would be "blind", were pretty much determined before the tryouts started. And they involved last year's coaches who injected their biases to their evaluations. Whole thing handled poorly and unprofessionally. So badly, in fact, that an apology e-mail had to be sent out. Most of the kids who did not return - the majority of the team - had already decided at the end of last season that they would not return. On a positive note, the diluted talent to those local teams will make for some fun, competitive games this season! The one who is going to FCA is on his 4th team in 4 years. His Dad is a problem on the sidelines and was asked to leave. This one in particular had nothing to do with Flat Brim. Is the kid you are talking about a goalie?
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Re: Crabs Lacrosse / Baltimore Lacrosse Club
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3 went to looneys... (3) to 91... (3) FVC.. (2) club blue. We all know what the problem is. "Flat brim" 4 went to Looneys.... The whole staff was a problem .... also 1 went to FCA......Crabs management/coaching blew up their own program. Those kids won many of their games in spite of the circus on the sidelines. "Flat brim" made decisions detrimental to the team just to protect his kid. Head coach had some communication issues. Then the tryouts, that BM promised would be "blind", were pretty much determined before the tryouts started. And they involved last year's coaches who injected their biases to their evaluations. Whole thing handled poorly and unprofessionally. So badly, in fact, that an apology e-mail had to be sent out. Most of the kids who did not return - the majority of the team - had already decided at the end of last season that they would not return. On a positive note, the diluted talent to those local teams will make for some fun, competitive games this season! The one who is going to FCA is on his 4th team in 4 years. His Dad is a problem on the sidelines and was asked to leave. This one in particular had nothing to do with Flat Brim. Is the kid you are talking about a goalie? Attackman. And to be clear... the kid is very nice and he is a decent player. Dad is the problem.
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Re: Crabs Lacrosse / Baltimore Lacrosse Club
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Oh [lacrosse]... did any of you meathead dads/moms hear what happen in Barcelona. Let's move on and get over this [lacrosse]. Their are more important things in the world... great year last year and good luck to the kids next year.
Ps my first post
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Ha, using the words "detrimental" in 6th grade lacrosse is laughable! Sounds like you need some help! Seriously, go get some help!
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Re: Crabs Lacrosse / Baltimore Lacrosse Club
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Oh [lacrosse]... did any of you meathead dads/moms hear what happen in Barcelona. Let's move on and get over this [lacrosse]. Their are more important things in the world... great year last year and good luck to the kids next year.
Ps my first post Why are we talking about soccer on a lacrosse forum
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Re: Crabs Lacrosse / Baltimore Lacrosse Club
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DC Express, FCA, Hawks, Dukes are all better options now for the kids... those programs are more fun and Crabs is just an angry and bitter brand. People are sick of that mob mentality at crabs- we are. Kids like to play other sports in winter and fall and play with different friends. Crabs is going to need to loosen the reigns and change to remain relevant. I hope they do. The other NLF teams all are sick of them too. Just ask. Since most teams in Baltimore have older kids now, the crabs can't win that way. NY teams still kick their butts with younger kids. Its a family-world out there now and crabs tyranny isn't welcomed. Im sorry they get bashed on here on so much because they could be better if they lead the sport rather than work to tear others down.
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DC Express, FCA, Hawks, Dukes are all better options now for the kids... those programs are more fun and Crabs is just an angry and bitter brand. People are sick of that mob mentality at crabs- we are. Kids like to play other sports in winter and fall and play with different friends. Crabs is going to need to loosen the reigns and change to remain relevant. I hope they do. The other NLF teams all are sick of them too. Just ask. Since most teams in Baltimore have older kids now, the crabs can't win that way. NY teams still kick their butts with younger kids. Its a family-world out there now and crabs tyranny isn't welcomed. Im sorry they get bashed on here on so much because they could be better if they lead the sport rather than work to tear others down. If having "fun with friends" and popping in and out at will for other obligations is your priority, that is what rec ball is for. I have no affiliation with the Crab's, but my son was on a club who had parents that felt the same way as you. It left the team high and dry on many occasions. I have no problem with kids wanting to play with friends, do other sports, skip practice here or there to ride their bikes and do other activities. But again, that is a rec ball type mentality. At the Elite level of any sport, not just Lacrosse. You're expected to dedicate yourself to that sport/club and give it priority.
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The point is, there are no elite training programs for lacrosse in Maryland. The elite players work on their own and play for clubs that market them. Period. The clubs focus is to win games to get more kids to their program- not to train kids. Elite athletes at 14 in other sports have training systems. Lacrosse does not. But its your choice to believe the hype about clubs. Your kid may be elite, but he has you and himself to thank for that.
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DC Express, FCA, Hawks, Dukes are all better options now for the kids... those programs are more fun and Crabs is just an angry and bitter brand. People are sick of that mob mentality at crabs- we are. Kids like to play other sports in winter and fall and play with different friends. Crabs is going to need to loosen the reigns and change to remain relevant. I hope they do. The other NLF teams all are sick of them too. Just ask. Since most teams in Baltimore have older kids now, the crabs can't win that way. NY teams still kick their butts with younger kids. Its a family-world out there now and crabs tyranny isn't welcomed. Im sorry they get bashed on here on so much because they could be better if they lead the sport rather than work to tear others down. If having "fun with friends" and popping in and out at will for other obligations is your priority, that is what rec ball is for. I have no affiliation with the Crab's, but my son was on a club who had parents that felt the same way as you. It left the team high and dry on many occasions. I have no problem with kids wanting to play with friends, do other sports, skip practice here or there to ride their bikes and do other activities. But again, that is a rec ball type mentality. At the Elite level of any sport, not just Lacrosse. You're expected to dedicate yourself to that sport/club and give it priority. I didnt realize that 2026 4th graders were considered at the elite level of sports.
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DC Express, FCA, Hawks, Dukes are all better options now for the kids... those programs are more fun and Crabs is just an angry and bitter brand. People are sick of that mob mentality at crabs- we are. Kids like to play other sports in winter and fall and play with different friends. Crabs is going to need to loosen the reigns and change to remain relevant. I hope they do. The other NLF teams all are sick of them too. Just ask. Since most teams in Baltimore have older kids now, the crabs can't win that way. NY teams still kick their butts with younger kids. Its a family-world out there now and crabs tyranny isn't welcomed. Im sorry they get bashed on here on so much because they could be better if they lead the sport rather than work to tear others down. If having "fun with friends" and popping in and out at will for other obligations is your priority, that is what rec ball is for. I have no affiliation with the Crab's, but my son was on a club who had parents that felt the same way as you. It left the team high and dry on many occasions. I have no problem with kids wanting to play with friends, do other sports, skip practice here or there to ride their bikes and do other activities. But again, that is a rec ball type mentality. At the Elite level of any sport, not just Lacrosse. You're expected to dedicate yourself to that sport/club and give it priority. I didnt realize that 2026 4th graders were considered at the elite level of sports. If you're dumb enough to pay $2k for your 4th grader to play travel La-field-hockey that is on you.
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Why not make your kid Elite in the class room and let him play for the club he has fun with? #wakeupamerica
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DC Express, FCA, Hawks, Dukes are all better options now for the kids... those programs are more fun and Crabs is just an angry and bitter brand. People are sick of that mob mentality at crabs- we are. Kids like to play other sports in winter and fall and play with different friends. Crabs is going to need to loosen the reigns and change to remain relevant. I hope they do. The other NLF teams all are sick of them too. Just ask. Since most teams in Baltimore have older kids now, the crabs can't win that way. NY teams still kick their butts with younger kids. Its a family-world
out there now and crabs tyranny isn't welcomed. Im sorry they get bashed on here on so much because they could be better if they lead the sport rather than work to tear others down. If having "fun with friends" and popping in and out at will for other obligations is your priority, that is what rec ball is for. I have no affiliation with the Crab's, but my son was on a club who had parents that felt the same way as you. It left the team high and dry on many occasions. I have no problem with kids wanting to play with friends, do other sports, skip practice here or there to ride their bikes and do other activities. But again, that is a rec ball type mentality. At the Elite level of any sport, not just Lacrosse. You're expected to dedicate yourself to that sport/club and give it priority. I didnt realize that 2026 4th graders were considered at the elite level of sports. If you're dumb enough to pay $2k for your 4th grader to play travel La-field-hockey that is on you. Rec ball type mentality? It is called being a normal kid. Focus should be on letting the kids develop socially and physically and then have them make the decision if they are gonna dedicate themselves to the sport and put in the work. Not the parents deciding and pushing the kids to train so they can be on an "elite" level team. Your post is everything that is wrong with youth lacrosse. No one cares about what a kid did in the 7th grade Elite division in the HOCO club league. Most 7th and 8th grade kids are focused on their Middle school football and soccer teams right now. It is the parents who are obsessing about their kid's lacrosse future.
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The point is, there are no elite training programs for lacrosse in Maryland. The elite players work on their own and play for clubs that market them. Period. The clubs focus is to win games to get more kids to their program- not to train kids. Elite athletes at 14 in other sports have training systems. Lacrosse does not. But its your choice to believe the hype about clubs. Your kid may be elite, but he has you and himself to thank for that. You have no idea what you are talking about
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The point is, there are no elite training programs for lacrosse in Maryland. The elite players work on their own and play for clubs that market them. Period. The clubs focus is to win games to get more kids to their program- not to train kids. Elite athletes at 14 in other sports have training systems. Lacrosse does not. But its your choice to believe the hype about clubs. Your kid may be elite, but he has you and himself to thank for that. You have no idea what you are talking about You must be a club director to suggest that my kids and their parents aren't responsible for their development and skill. I am happy to pay their clubs to organize and coach them, but you sir/madam are but one very small part of their lives. Remember this, its the kids and their parents that make you successful.
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I saw a 2023 Crabs attackman is now rostered on the 2022 Crabs team. Is he playing up or decided not to reclassify and is back with his proper age group?
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I saw a 2023 Crabs attackman is now rostered on the 2022 Crabs team. Is he playing up or decided not to reclassify and is back with his proper age group? 1. Why are you scouring the internet searching for, and starting anonymous forum discussions about, a minor? 2. There are no age groups. 3. F off, loser.
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I saw a 2023 Crabs attackman is now rostered on the 2022 Crabs team. Is he playing up or decided not to reclassify and is back with his proper age group? 1. Why are you scouring the internet searching for, and starting anonymous forum discussions about, a minor? 2. There are no age groups. 3. F off, loser. Too easy.
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I saw a 2023 Crabs attackman is now rostered on the 2022 Crabs team. Is he playing up or decided not to reclassify and is back with his proper age group? Crabs 2022 is struggling. Kid is good enough to play up
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I saw a 2023 Crabs attackman is now rostered on the 2022 Crabs team. Is he playing up or decided not to reclassify and is back with his proper age group? He is playing up.
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The point is, there are no elite training programs for lacrosse in Maryland. The elite players work on their own and play for clubs that market them. Period. The clubs focus is to win games to get more kids to their program- not to train kids. Elite athletes at 14 in other sports have training systems. Lacrosse does not. But its your choice to believe the hype about clubs. Your kid may be elite, but he has you and himself to thank for that. You have no idea what you are talking about You must be a club director to suggest that my kids and their parents aren't responsible for their development and skill. I am happy to pay their clubs to organize and coach them, but you sir/madam are but one very small part of their lives. Remember this, its the kids and their parents that make you successful. I am not a club director and you still have no idea what you are talking about
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Since recruiting doesn't happen until later I'm surprised more kids aren't trying to play up and get better
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I saw a 2023 Crabs attackman is now rostered on the 2022 Crabs team. Is he playing up or decided not to reclassify and is back with his proper age group? Relax... Save you the detective work Nancy Drew. He is playing at proper age now.. Will drop back to 2023 next year 8th grade and reclass the following year to be a 2024 and finally get to High School the following year. Pretty easy detective work if you follow the Crabs.
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The point is, there are no elite training programs for lacrosse in Maryland. The elite players work on their own and play for clubs that market them. Period. The clubs focus is to win games to get more kids to their program- not to train kids. Elite athletes at 14 in other sports have training systems. Lacrosse does not. But its your choice to believe the hype about clubs. Your kid may be elite, but he has you and himself to thank for that. You have no idea what you are talking about You must be a club director to suggest that my kids and their parents aren't responsible for their development and skill. I am happy to pay their clubs to organize and coach them, but you sir/madam are but one very small part of their lives. Remember this, its the kids and their parents that make you successful. I am not a club director and you still have no idea what you are talking about The above is one of the truest statements ever on these boards. The club does not make a player elite. Their athleticism, work ethic, outside skill development both on their own and with skilled coaches is what make the difference. There are plenty of elite kids on non elite teams that D1 coaches love because they have what it takes. Vice versa there are many bench sitters on the elite teams who will not get picked up by their first choices. First, because they never get on the field and second because they really don't have that special trait that makes them elite that a college coach can hone in on easily. The teams are elite because often elite kids can not handle being on anything but the best teams and surround themselves with other elite players but it is not the club's training. Perhaps the club has better college recruiting help, more connections etc. that draw more of the elite kids in but rarely is it the coaching or club that have made the kids elite.
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Re: Crabs Lacrosse / Baltimore Lacrosse Club
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I saw a 2023 Crabs attackman is now rostered on the 2022 Crabs team. Is he playing up or decided not to reclassify and is back with his proper age group? Relax... Save you the detective work Nancy Drew. He is playing at proper age now.. Will drop back to 2023 next year 8th grade and reclass the following year to be a 2024 and finally get to High School the following year. Pretty easy detective work if you follow the Crabs. You are a [lacrosse]*ckin idiot. Got it, a f' in IDIOT.
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Re: Crabs Lacrosse / Baltimore Lacrosse Club
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I saw a 2023 Crabs attackman is now rostered on the 2022 Crabs team. Is he playing up or decided not to reclassify and is back with his proper age group? Relax... Save you the detective work Nancy Drew. He is playing at proper age now.. Will drop back to 2023 next year 8th grade and reclass the following year to be a 2024 and finally get to High School the following year. Pretty easy detective work if you follow the Crabs. You are a [lacrosse]*ckin idiot. Got it, a f' in IDIOT. Easy there Ryan... I know the truth hurts. Good news is that it has got you some Championship photo ops!
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Re: Crabs Lacrosse / Baltimore Lacrosse Club
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I saw a 2023 Crabs attackman is now rostered on the 2022 Crabs team. Is he playing up or decided not to reclassify and is back with his proper age group? Relax... Save you the detective work Nancy Drew. He is playing at proper age now.. Will drop back to 2023 next year 8th grade and reclass the following year to be a 2024 and finally get to High School the following year. Pretty easy detective work if you follow the Crabs. You are a [lacrosse]*ckin idiot. Got it, a f' in IDIOT. Easy there Ryan... I know the truth hurts. Good news is that it has got you some Championship photo ops! Like stated above, a f' in idiot, plain and simple. Bet you read all the Nancy Drew books when you were younger or maybe you are reading them now. Idiot!
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Re: Crabs Lacrosse / Baltimore Lacrosse Club
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Can a real 23 Crabs parent tell the reason the team has been dismantled? Was it Flat Brim, was it the commute, was it middle school?????
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Re: Crabs Lacrosse / Baltimore Lacrosse Club
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Moderated by 1026ME, A1Laxer, Annoy., baldbear, BiggLax, BOTC_EVENTS, clax422, CP@BOTC, cp_botc, Gremelin, hatimd80, JimSection1, Ladylaxer2609, lax516, Laxers412, LaxMomma, LILax15, MomOf6, Team BOTC, The Hop, TheBackOfTheCage, Thirdy@BOTC, TM@BOTC
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