BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums NORTHEAST LACROSSE BOTC MAIN FORUM (LI, CT, WC) Age and Reclassification. The good the bad the ugly!

Some intellectual honesty might help this discussion. I know this will get ripped - but I’ll bet there are a lot of people with similar stories and it hardly ever gets discussed. And I also know there are people doing extreme things deliberately for an advantage in this sport and others.

If you played lacrosse back 20+/- years ago, you probably have great friends and former teammates from college who likely live in that other place. Did they somehow become evil child abusing cheaters? Over time did they all become whining crybabies? Not likely. What is more likely is that they are sending their kids to school in the way their school system says is best (public or private). People don’t want their kid to be an outlier age wise either way. Is that really hard to understand? Would you swim against the stream if you lived in the other place – and throw out the advice or rules of your school of choice? Most of us are just trying to do what is best for our kids and having them fit in age wise at school seems pretty logical. Forget the nut job double hold-back, double pre-k. pre-pre-first people for a minute, they do enough to ruin this great sport and hi-jack the conversation.

Two of my college teammates and best friends live in MD. They have boys roughly same age as my oldest (few months max). My son is young for his grade by our standards. We are all really close and consider each other “family”. My son plays in one age bracket, their boys play (2) age brackets lower. Call me an exaggerator – this is fact. According to my friends, their boys are average age for their team. I see them at tournaments because their oldest boys play against my next oldest son. Fair? No. Who would really even argue that? Evil? No. Cheating? Again – No. In practical reality - it isn’t up to them. They sent their boys to school the way the schools told them they should in order to attend. Now - they play club lax which is organized by grade. To them, you sign up and tryout and it is based by grade and that is that. I can see their point. These aren’t crazies that did this for an advantage in sports, but they also are guys that don’t deny their sons are advantaged by this set-up. I know their boys really well - they are great kids, really good players who work hard on this game. Win or lose these boys would much rather be playing my their older similar aged "cousin" than battling it out with their little “cousin”.

My friends and I get it – youth results really don’t mean anything – sorry folks, but they really, really don’t. We don’t care about the T-shirts or trophies, but the kids actually do - especially earlier on. When you win one - you want to know you earned it and when you come up short you shouldn’t have a built in excuse. Point – this system sucks for all the kids. Up until at least U15 it should be totally age based. Easy to do and easy to enforce. Better for all the kids. Can’t happen soon enough. My littlest ones are doing NXT, Adrenaline and 3d events when the time comes – I’ll seek out teams that seek that out. Hopefully everyone is along for the ride well before that.

Once they are in HS you have a different conversation - still an advantage, but a 5’10” 175 lb. 16 year old can at least compete v. 6’0” 200 lb. 18 yr. old. Simply not true with 5’2” 110 lb 12 yr. old v. 5’8” 150 lb 14 year old (both of whom btw will likely end up being the same size at the end of the day). It just isn’t good all around.

Club Directors - be as “elite” or AAA+++ as you want, make all the kids buy matching underwear and pajamas for the hotels with logos emblazoned on the sides, charge whatever, make as much money selling the college dream to 9 year old kids as you can, but please do it age based at the youth level. Much better for all the kids and the sport as a whole. Parents - the money you spend on this stuff is not an “investment” it’s a childhood activity for your son. If you view it the other way it clouds your thinking and makes it about the destination not the journey.

[/quote]

Grenada is nicer than Beirut also.

No one is cheating by holding back. Shut your mouth and take your beating on the field, the classroom and workplace.

Hope you get cancer as well. Statistically your ginger skin type makes it very likely. At least your kids are still living at home in their twenties so you always have them, and the 11 year old grandson. If you held them back maybe they would have earned that promotion at Starbucks months ago.

Some intellectual honesty might help this discussion. I know this will get ripped - but I’ll bet there are a lot of people with similar stories and it hardly ever gets discussed. And I also know there are people doing extreme things deliberately for an advantage in this sport and others.

If you played lacrosse back 20+/- years ago, you probably have great friends and former teammates from college who likely live in that other place. Did they somehow become evil child abusing cheaters? Over time did they all become whining crybabies? Not likely. What is more likely is that they are sending their kids to school in the way their school system says is best (public or private). People don’t want their kid to be an outlier age wise either way. Is that really hard to understand? Would you swim against the stream if you lived in the other place – and throw out the advice or rules of your school of choice? Most of us are just trying to do what is best for our kids and having them fit in age wise at school seems pretty logical. Forget the nut job double hold-back, double pre-k. pre-pre-first people for a minute, they do enough to ruin this great sport and hi-jack the conversation.

Two of my college teammates and best friends live in MD. They have boys roughly same age as my oldest (few months max). My son is young for his grade by our standards. We are all really close and consider each other “family”. My son plays in one age bracket, their boys play (2) age brackets lower. Call me an exaggerator – this is fact. According to my friends, their boys are average age for their team. I see them at tournaments because their oldest boys play against my next oldest son. Fair? No. Who would really even argue that? Evil? No. Cheating? Again – No. In practical reality - it isn’t up to them. They sent their boys to school the way the schools told them they should in order to attend. Now - they play club lax which is organized by grade. To them, you sign up and tryout and it is based by grade and that is that. I can see their point. These aren’t crazies that did this for an advantage in sports, but they also are guys that don’t deny their sons are advantaged by this set-up. I know their boys really well - they are great kids, really good players who work hard on this game. Win or lose these boys would much rather be playing my their older similar aged "cousin" than battling it out with their little “cousin”.

My friends and I get it – youth results really don’t mean anything – sorry folks, but they really, really don’t. We don’t care about the T-shirts or trophies, but the kids actually do - especially earlier on. When you win one - you want to know you earned it and when you come up short you shouldn’t have a built in excuse. Point – this system sucks for all the kids. Up until at least U15 it should be totally age based. Easy to do and easy to enforce. Better for all the kids. Can’t happen soon enough. My littlest ones are doing NXT, Adrenaline and 3d events when the time comes – I’ll seek out teams that seek that out. Hopefully everyone is along for the ride well before that.

Once they are in HS you have a different conversation - still an advantage, but a 5’10” 175 lb. 16 year old can at least compete v. 6’0” 200 lb. 18 yr. old. Simply not true with 5’2” 110 lb 12 yr. old v. 5’8” 150 lb 14 year old (both of whom btw will likely end up being the same size at the end of the day). It just isn’t good all around.

Club Directors - be as “elite” or AAA+++ as you want, make all the kids buy matching underwear and pajamas for the hotels with logos emblazoned on the sides, charge whatever, make as much money selling the college dream to 9 year old kids as you can, but please do it age based at the youth level. Much better for all the kids and the sport as a whole. Parents - the money you spend on this stuff is not an “investment” it’s a childhood activity for your son. If you view it the other way it clouds your thinking and makes it about the destination not the journey.

Why do people use steroids? Because they work.

Why do people hold back their kids? Because it works.

You have to adapt to your community. LI has some good schools and Myles Jones PGed. To keep up with the Jones (LOL)

I have four kids, all hold backs. Only one plays sports at a high level. All four are judged based upon their peer group. Being older gives them more opportunities. They win. No cheating just using the arbitrary nature of the system established to treat kids based on their DOB. It is a joke.

Get on board people... we have cookies

And their peers all talk behind their backs. He won because he's a hold back or he should have won because he's a holdback. It's a lose lose. Just as they say "gaming" the system.

I watched a kid get his collar bone broken last weekend trying to defend a kid 30+ pounds heavier and way more physically mature. Not against the rules so it's all good...right?

I watched a kid get his collar bone broken last weekend trying to defend a kid 30+ pounds heavier and way more physically mature. Not against the rules so it's all good...right?

Fault of the parents. You all saw a dangerous situation, yet left the smaller kids on the field. Want to fix the holdback problem, pull your team when there is an older kid. If that happens enough, the playing field will become level. But if YOU keep showing up and paying and playing you get what you deserve.

So the correct age kids should not be allowed to play? WOW

Missing the point. You are saying "correct age", but are talking about a grade based league. In this case, there is no "correct age", there is only "correct grade". You are making up what you want it to be, then complaining! There are age based leagues that you can enter. If you sign up for grade based league, pay money, and step on the field, I suppose we are compelled to believe you were ok with the rules. Don't pay and complain. Just don't pay. There is a rec league for you, just around the corner somewhere.

.... and as others have said, these club owners would make more money if they used a strict calendar year system. It would open up club lacrosse to a wider range of athletes, skill level and experience. The best of the best of the best can hang with older kids, and their families probably love it. But the more typical "good" athlete can not.

The MD MIAA and the MA and PA prep schoolers can still enter HS at 16, and enter college at 20. No one wants to stop that if that is what they want. Just have club lacrosse be age on age. AAA, AA, A and B divisions. Will increase enrollment and $$$ for club owners. Fair, even, competitive games keeps parents coming back, and entices more parents to come - especially from the lesser athletes and the less experienced players, who can play A or B and have fun.

HS club is not going to do that, as it would be incredibly ineffective for scouting. HS club is for showcasing talent, not winning trophies. You play for the trophy during school in the Spring.
Youth, fine, sounds good. Now go and get it set up. Build it and they will come.

I love the ineffective for scouting argument - when every other organized sports program is age based and they seem to figure out recruiting just fine.

.... and as others have said, these club owners would make more money if they used a strict calendar year system. It would open up club lacrosse to a wider range of athletes, skill level and experience. The best of the best of the best can hang with older kids, and their families probably love it. But the more typical "good" athlete can not.

The MD MIAA and the MA and PA prep schoolers can still enter HS at 16, and enter college at 20. No one wants to stop that if that is what they want. Just have club lacrosse be age on age. AAA, AA, A and B divisions. Will increase enrollment and $$$ for club owners. Fair, even, competitive games keeps parents coming back, and entices more parents to come - especially from the lesser athletes and the less experienced players, who can play A or B and have fun.

"ineffective for scouting"???? Then how do colleges in other sports scout in an age based system? The answer is that they do so just fine. This is the biggest myth out there coming from lax people who know nothing but lax. College coaches will go to the top AAA tournaments around. They will see the best play the best. They will identify who they want. Then they simply look at their program, note the GY, and commence recruiting (according to relevant rules in place by NCAA, ect.). How is this hard? Do you think their brain will freeze and they will go into a panic because a 16 year old middie is dodging the alley against a 16 year old pole who is a different GY than he is? Why can't they simply watch a 2002 BY game, see three elite players that they like, then recruit them? If the kid is GY 2020, than they can offer him a spot entering 2020. If the other two are GY 2021, than they can offer spots entering 2021. Why is it necessary for these three players to enter college in the same year? Do you really think college coaches can't handle this, when their counterparts in other sports easily can?

"ineffective for scouting"???? Then how do colleges in other sports scout in an age based system? The answer is that they do so just fine. This is the biggest myth out there coming from lax people who know nothing but lax. College coaches will go to the top AAA tournaments around. They will see the best play the best. They will identify who they want. Then they simply look at their program, note the GY, and commence recruiting (according to relevant rules in place by NCAA, ect.). How is this hard? Do you think their brain will freeze and they will go into a panic because a 16 year old middie is dodging the alley against a 16 year old pole who is a different GY than he is? Why can't they simply watch a 2002 BY game, see three elite players that they like, then recruit them? If the kid is GY 2020, than they can offer him a spot entering 2020. If the other two are GY 2021, than they can offer spots entering 2021. Why is it necessary for these three players to enter college in the same year? Do you really think college coaches can't handle this, when their counterparts in other sports easily can?

Unless the rules have changed lately, max age to play in the MIAA is 19 (you can turn 19 during your senior year). This is only one year older than the "normal" senior age (17 into 18).

only huh. There can be huge difference between a high school senior and a college freshman. It's not changing but it is gaming the system without a doubt

You are comparing college staffs of 4-5 vs 14-15 with severely different program budgets. Much different. The Summer HS lax tourneys were set up this way to cater to small-staff scouting with collegiate coach guidance, so argue all you want, it's that way now, and business is booming. Take the age argument to youth where you can make some headway; stupid mindless argument at HS level. At the end of day, we are arguing over an average 1 year spread folks, education evolves, public could follow..

Well, you are currently on the counter side of what exists, so before you get too cocky, remember, the industry does not currently agree with you. So right now, you are a person that is wrong.

Unless the rules have changed lately, max age to play in the MIAA is 19 (you can turn 19 during your senior year). This is only one year older than the "normal" senior age (17 into 18).

The only point of the age argument is for public school parents to marginalize private school families in their own minds. Nothing more, nothing less. Obviously private systems have evolved at a greater rate than public systems, so the only way to make themselves feel better is to bully and criticize. There's plenty to criticize about the public system, but I don't typically see parents on here going out of their way to point out the negatives of public school education. Maybe they should, plenty of material.

The only point of the age argument is for public school parents to marginalize private school families in their own minds. Nothing more, nothing less. Obviously private systems have evolved at a greater rate than public systems, so the only way to make themselves feel better is to bully and criticize. There's plenty to criticize about the public system, but I don't typically see parents on here going out of their way to point out the negatives of public school education. Maybe they should, plenty of material.

This might be the single dumbest post on the site, and that says a lot. No one, and I mean no one, is looking to "marginalize" private school families. My kids go to public school. I don't care if every kid on their travel team goes to private school. I don't care if every opponent at every tournament goes to private school. All I care about is having the kids play vs kids their own age.

I also don't care what grade my kids teammates are, and I don't care what grade their opponents are in. Indeed, I don't even care if they go to school at all.

There are a s---t ton of private school kids playing hockey. They all play on age, and there are no issues with this whatsoever.

Somehow lax is "special" . . . or something . . .!

LOL, never thought I'd see the day where even TY Xander denounces the POS cheaters. Saying it's not fair and needs to stop. Check your twitter