BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums NORTHEAST LACROSSE BOTC MAIN FORUM (LI, CT, WC) Express North at Long Ireland tournament

Well said, couldn't agree more it's just sad that organizations & parents have resorted to the win at any cost mentality and then try to justify using older players. It's really sad that this where this great sport is going.

From what I've read - The LIE team filled in an empty spot with 24hrs notice - albeit in a division they were too skilled to be in (but THIS WAS APPROVED BY THE TOURNAMENT DIRECTOR). They played weak hand, half defense and passed the ball instead of shooting. These are all very NORMAL approaches in a situation when a team is notably stronger - it evens out the game considerably. My sons have been on both sides of the advantage in the past and as a parent I respected the coaches tremendously - as no one likes a blatant blow out at a charity tournament like this.

No one complained the boys were overly aggressive/physical on the field. If that were the case - I would think the refs would have put a stop to it immediately and this post would be going in a different direction. But instead - this post is full of immaturity, whining, sour grapes. accusations & name calling.

IMO - Lack of communication from the Tournament Director (who was probably just trying to do the right thing) and mistakes by many were made throughout the 48 hours. I'm sure if it's covered by your news12 threat -- you and the parents on your team won't come out smelling like roses either.

Have a drink, blow off some steam outside of your keyboard courage -- go toss the ball around with your son. Life is too short to get twisted about one charity tournament that may have been mishandled from the top down. And if this age thing really pisses you off - don't have your son play club ball anywhere - it's not going away and no club is free of it. Middle school club ball is even more fun to watch: puberty vs. non puberty players that may or may not have been reclassed. 85lb attackman vs a 150+defenseman. I watch and cringe through it every weekend.

From what I've read - The LIE team filled in an empty spot with 24hrs notice - albeit in a division they were too skilled to be in (but THIS WAS APPROVED BY THE TOURNAMENT DIRECTOR). They played weak hand, half defense and passed the ball instead of shooting. These are all very NORMAL approaches in a situation when a team is notably stronger - it evens out the game considerably. My sons have been on both sides of the advantage in the past and as a parent I respected the coaches tremendously - as no one likes a blatant blow out at a charity tournament like this.

No one complained the boys were overly aggressive/physical on the field. If that were the case - I would think the refs would have put a stop to it immediately and this post would be going in a different direction. But instead - this post is full of immaturity, whining, sour grapes. accusations & name calling.

IMO - Lack of communication from the Tournament Director (who was probably just trying to do the right thing) and mistakes by many were made throughout the 48 hours. I'm sure if it's covered by your news12 threat -- you and the parents on your team won't come out smelling like roses either.

Have a drink, blow off some steam outside of your keyboard courage -- go toss the ball around with your son. Life is too short to get twisted about one charity tournament that may have been mishandled from the top down. And if this age thing really pisses you off - don't have your son play club ball anywhere - it's not going away and no club is free of it. Middle school club ball is even more fun to watch: puberty vs. non puberty players that may or may not have been reclassed. 85lb attackman vs a 150+defenseman. I watch and cringe through it every weekend.

Here's a hypothetical...

Express enters the John A. Smith charity tournament. In the bracket are the 2026 (not 2025) teams Schmigloo*, Team 92*, Leprosy*, Inlaws*, and a few others. Just making up some completely random names... Express comes out on top in all 3 of their games! Wait, no celebrating, this is a charity tournament. How dare you be happy. Is that a grin, you devil you? You should be ashamed of yourself!!! This isn't the olymipcs, stop acting like it. Tsk, tsk, tsk. Fingers are wagging at you.

While getting over being ashamed of your happiness, you check the schedule on tourney machine, and next you are going up against a team named SadLax*.

Is it the Olympics? Of course not, you remind yourself. You tell the kids just have some fun against SadLax*. "Don't worry Johnny, this is a charity game, you should be whistling skippity doo dah, not worrying about ground balls. It's just a silly silly game."

At this point you also make sure your kids realize there are starving kids in Ethiopia and this game doesn't mean a single thing. Even the WSYL means nothing, zero, nada, in the grand scheme of things, you remind your son. They are 9 years old afterall. They need these reminders. We ALL need these reminders, let's be honest. Some of them are still 8, buy I digress. None of them are 10, but I digress even more.

Almost half way through the receiving end of an a$$ whipping it is revealed to you that SadLax* is playing with older kids. What in tarnation!... is not what you'd say or think. Rather you think hey, that's AOK!!! My boy is out there having a jolly time. Who cares that this is the 4th game my 10 (whoops I mean 9 or 8) year old has played hard in the July heat and humidity. So long as the boys remember they are playing for John A. Smith they'll be grinning from ear to ear even if the score is 9-1. In fact, I'm in such a charitable mood right now, that I hope the other team scores more and more and more so they have more fun fun fun! YEA!!!!

SadLax* will not, by any means, boast of this on Twitter under the headline that starts "SadLax* 2026..." It's not the Olympics to them. No, no, no sireee!!! SadLax* will remind you that it's not the Olympics.

End of hypothetical....

There is no one on earth who can say with a straight face that they wouldn't be bothered.

But SadLax* filled in last minute and told the organizers. No one told you (or other teams you played). You find this out a little too late, but all good. Carry on. Still not the Olympics though.

*Names are fictitious. Any resemblance to actual teams, active or defunct, is purely coincidental.

If it was about safety, those of you most concerned would have sat your child and said NO WAY is my kid going out there. I for one would never sacrifice my sons health for a lacrosse game. So those of you spouting off about the dangers of this event, what did you do? If your son played you are a hypocrite, and quite frankly a lousy parent for letting him go out there with the knowledge that his health and wellbeing were in jeapordy. Be honest, It's all about the win, always has been and always will be. Just saying folks!!!

If it was about safety, those of you most concerned would have sat your child and said NO WAY is my kid going out there. I for one would never sacrifice my sons health for a lacrosse game. So those of you spouting off about the dangers of this event, what did you do? If your son played you are a hypocrite, and quite frankly a lousy parent for letting him go out there with the knowledge that his health and wellbeing were in jeapordy. Be honest, It's all about the win, always has been and always will be. Just saying folks!!!

Express coach admitted to having older players toward the end of the championship game. I sure if it was know prior to the start of the game the coaches would have never put them on the field. The Express coach went over to Levittown coaches before the start of the game and wished them luck. That would have been the appropriate time to divulge they were majority of older players. That didn't happen.

In lacrosse, if you are not playing down, you are playing up. Get used to it. It is the norm. My experience has been that it is most prevalent in the Balt-DC area and in CT/Westchester area but no region is innocent. Not by a long shot.

I hate it and frankly laugh at those pathetic snowflakes that just need to be good at something, even if that means playing younger kids in order to show well.

It will stop when the college coaches stop encouraging it (never happen) or the insurance company that provides coverage for basically all players and teams (via US Lacrosse membership) demands that it stop.

I'd bet on the lawyers before the coaches though I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet. Thank goodness some poor kid hasn't been severely injured yet, but sadly that is what it might take.

In lacrosse, if you are not playing down, you are playing up. Get used to it. It is the norm. My experience has been that it is most prevalent in the Balt-DC area and in CT/Westchester area but no region is innocent. Not by a long shot.

I hate it and frankly laugh at those pathetic snowflakes that just need to be good at something, even if that means playing younger kids in order to show well.

It will stop when the college coaches stop encouraging it (never happen) or the insurance company that provides coverage for basically all players and teams (via US Lacrosse membership) demands that it stop.

I'd bet on the lawyers before the coaches though I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet. Thank goodness some poor kid hasn't been severely injured yet, but sadly that is what it might take.

Playing down is big in MA and PA also. Also keep in mind that even if a kid is "on grade" from MA, PA, MA, ect, they are still older than NYers playing "on grade" because of the older calendar year these other states use for their kids. For instance, and "on grade" 2023 team in NY has 11 and 12 year olds. In these other states, it is more like 12-13. You can put NJ in this category as well. "on grade" kids are older.

Westchester is not big on holdbacks. CT much more so. Issue is that certain teams have a mix of CT and Westchester kids so it becomes like a holdback team. A team that has only NY kids is much more likely to be "on grade".

Man that stinks. Personally I can't stand when there are accusations against other players. I'm not naive, but I'm not the type to accuse someone of being older no matter how big/strong/fast/skilled they are. There was just one time in the 50+ games over the last 3+ years that I was convinced someone was too old. And that was back in 1st grade... No matter how much my radar is going off, I keep it to myself and make sure my son doesn't get jilted into believing anyone better than him or his teammates must be older. I won't let that attitude seep into his head. That's what kind of makes me angry. That it's so accepted and prevalent.

This absurd.. to me its impossible to,defend having players play down for any reason. I have no dog in the fight but playing down should never be allowed.

That's a very clever way of defending hold backs. Nice try.

I never said they are necessarily better. In fact, many are worse.

You never read that. No one is defending it. The argument was that the parents are more concerned with winning , not the safety of their kids. If they were the child would have been pulled from competition.

Valid lessons for this weekend for all the boys out there:

1. Some people don't play by the rules and sometimes that impacts you.
2. If they run faster, play harder, and shoot better they will win the game.
3. If you are mad that you lost improve for the next time.
4. Practice like you are playing don't play practice.
5. Beware of adults with Solo Cups they act different than adults without them.
6. It's not just a game to some people and that's ok.
7. Everyone will bend the rules because the rules apply to everyone else but them.
8. Play hard until the end even if the game is 8-1 because 10-3 is much better than 10-0 even though 10-3 still sucks.
9. Respect your opponent on and off the field shake hands when your done and say good game even if you know in your heart that they are cheating.
10. Respect the refs they really don't give a crap who wins or loses or if they get the calls right. ( See #5 ).
11. What you do on the field doesn't define who you are but how you act on the field and off the field does.

If you have any more you can add to this list lets keep this going so we can really make this a learning experience for the boys like everyone keeps saying

Keep it going BOTC community!!!

Valid lessons for this weekend for all the boys out there:

1. Some people don't play by the rules and sometimes that impacts you.
2. If they run faster, play harder, and shoot better they will win the game.
3. If you are mad that you lost improve for the next time.
4. Practice like you are playing don't play practice.
5. Beware of adults with Solo Cups they act different than adults without them.
6. It's not just a game to some people and that's ok.
7. Everyone will bend the rules because the rules apply to everyone else but them.
8. Play hard until the end even if the game is 8-1 because 10-3 is much better than 10-0 even though 10-3 still sucks.
9. Respect your opponent on and off the field shake hands when your done and say good game even if you know in your heart that they are cheating.
10. Respect the refs they really don't give a crap who wins or loses or if they get the calls right. ( See #5 ).
11. What you do on the field doesn't define who you are but how you act on the field and off the field does.

If you have any more you can add to this list lets keep this going so we can really make this a learning experience for the boys like everyone keeps saying

Keep it going BOTC community!!!

Valid lessons for this weekend for all the boys out there:

1. Some people don't play by the rules and sometimes that impacts you.
2. If they run faster, play harder, and shoot better they will win the game.
3. If you are mad that you lost improve for the next time.
4. Practice like you are playing don't play practice.
5. Beware of adults with Solo Cups they act different than adults without them.
6. It's not just a game to some people and that's ok.
7. Everyone will bend the rules because the rules apply to everyone else but them.
8. Play hard until the end even if the game is 8-1 because 10-3 is much better than 10-0 even though 10-3 still sucks.
9. Respect your opponent on and off the field shake hands when your done and say good game even if you know in your heart that they are cheating.
10. Respect the refs they really don't give a crap who wins or loses or if they get the calls right. ( See #5 ).
11. What you do on the field doesn't define who you are but how you act on the field and off the field does.

If you have any more you can add to this list lets keep this going so we can really make this a learning experience for the boys like everyone keeps saying

Keep it going BOTC community!!!

The problem with some of this (the parts that concern rules and following them) is that when young kids see cheating be rewarded and condoned, they learn to cheat themselves. This is exactly NOT what I want my kids to learn. So I wholeheartedly disagreed that we should be teaching 10 year olds that "some people cheat - such is life, deal with it and move on." This is not too different than teaching them cheating is ok.

Instead, kids should be taught that when someone is cheating, good people should do something about it. They will have to learn the nuances of how to do this when they get older, but the core message should be that cheating is not acceptable and they should know that he adults around them (parents, coaches, teammate and friend parents) don't tolerate it.

Add:
Kids should never give up. They need to hard for *every goal or every save* until the very end -even when you are losing by a large amount. It does count in real tournaments in terms of standings with goals against.

Kids should know that cheating isn't "cheating when the rules have been adjusted by the person/people in charge. And if you aren't happy with the situation of a serious disadvantage - handle it like a mature adult. Register a complaint with the Tournament director, contact the Program director of the offending team and contact your own program director. Running off to social media to air your grievances - questionable intent there.

Interesting that as responsible parents, we tell our kids not to take their personal gripes to social media because there is always more to the story and it causes divisiveness and bullying. I guess this was a Do as I say, not as I do situation?

Parents of younger players should know - college coaches are interested in the behavior of the kids on and off the field - and their parents/family play a part on that checklist as well. A black X on the sheet, no matter what column it's in isn't easy to shake. I know you are talking about 3rd graders here, but the time goes quick and it's a small group of lax folks that you run into all the time. The program directors you are slamming on this or any other site/anywhere else could help or hurt your son's chance. You need to be calculated & pick your battles. If your kid is from a whacky family & you get yourself a reputation for causing drama - the college coaches will undoubtedly hear about it. They don't need the drama or your kid at their school no matter how good he/she is.