BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums NORTHEAST LACROSSE BOTC MAIN FORUM (LI, CT, WC) Age and Reclassification. The good the bad the ugly!

Fortunately that just doesnt happen. Yea..some of older kids push and beat up on the younger ones. But the old kids just dont hurt the younger ones.
It is epidemic now the amount of prefirsts/holdbacks and people doing it for sports, but it is what it is. Morals be damned!

It is hilarious that the majority of these kids are in private schools where they constantly teach morals and doing the right thing. Look at any MIAA school and the preaching about morals that goes on at school. LOL

I believe that age based is way to subjective and it does not take into account the ethnicity of the child, some whom mature earlier and some that mature later, I would require each lacrosse participating child to have MRI's taken to measure growth plates. This would be the only fair way to classify kids to make sure they are in the safest playing environment against other kids of the same physical maturity levels. this would make so much more sense then grade or age based.

Believe it or not, many people don't do any of the things that you mention. Some folks are guided by morals principles and values, and others hold their kids back to look better at sports.

That probably won't happen, although I wish it should! Many of these boys peak early. They get to college and ride the bench for 4 years. My on age son easily started over a dbag hold back at a top 10 school last year. Parents shut up real quick. The kid is a loser just like the parents. Karma comes around to the vast majority. The ones that do succeed, would have anyway. A shame the parents didn't have more faith in them.

No downside to holding back your son. Do it and they will be more successful on the field and in the classroom. It is not cheating.

The entire discussion is a waste of time.

No downside... someone please present any evidence at all that it damages the child. Anyone? Anyone?

Ethics and Karma are what you argue? That is just stupid.

The dbag kid was not that good in the first place. If they hadn't held him back he would not have made the team.

That sentiment is why everyone cheats. The main concern is injury. NY beats the Maryland hold backs but they get pretty bruised up in the process with nonreleasable penalties coming more often with 50 to 60 pound differences. It's ridiculous. They are not even winning half the time. It's just plain dangerous

Spoken like an apologist who has his son play down and never actually play against kids his own age group. Little Johnny holdback just cant compete against kids his age. LOL

You apparently have never heard the term "strawman argument".

It is cheating, and the dbag was a US Lacrosse and UA All-American. Also a 20-year-old Freshman. We just call him a loser. Karma will get many of the kids, actually, I should say parents, who thought they could fix everything. Unfortunately, it doesn't always work out that way. The best kids will rise to the top, and age advantage will disappear. Worked for both my sons.

C Rec dad Your imaginary sons did great.

You present no argument

Get those burgers before they burn

If you do your research you will see that I am telling the truth, get back to your 5th martini! All I know is my sons excelled because of their talent, and holdbacks never were an issue because they were mostly soft in the end, like you. Can't wait to see the next Vinyard Vine throw a tantrum....Priceless!

Oh and South American baseball players don't lie about their ages and football players all get passing grades. Don't throw mud at the rich white boys. Nobody is clean.

The 54 year old spouses at the 55+ communities are starting to game the system in the shuffleboard leagues in FL. USL needs to step in, it's like anarchy down there, hammie pulls, even some hips popping, the on age folks just can't keep up. This one year thing is catching and needs to be stopped. These are original hold backs coming back around for another taste. They are all rich and white too..

Agreed, The holdbacks became a challenge for my son. You will always gravitate to your environment and ostensibly playing up helped him compete. The kids that were 15 when he was 14 were much bigger and stronger, that is all gone. He became tougher and played with a chip on his shoulder these last two years. I saw the parents of these whale belters and knew it would be just a matter of time..... They stopped growing and started to take on the frame of their ectomorph parents. BTW a coach of a major school asked me how tall my wife was when we visited this final 4 school.

None of this happened. Except for your amazing amazon wife.

It's just plain ridiculous when 13 years olds play 15 year olds. Even when the 13 year olds win it's at a much higher risk of injury.

Holding back only works in the short run. My son will be out of college with a job at 22. Would be weird to still be in college at 24-25. Especially with the new recruiting rules, by the end of sophomore year, things even out.

CPS is coming for all of you

A few schools where True on age Freshman started over older classmates: Albany, OSU, UNC, PSU, Rutgers, probably a few more, just the first few I found. OSU kid was Freshman of the year over many holdbacks.

Still no one has an example to indicate that holding back is not an effective tool.
C team dad and his imaginary kids are imaginary outliers.

If you live from Phili to DC being a holdback is not odd but the norm. Two year holdbacks (pre-first) is very common. C team dad's imaginary kids would be crushed by these September born two year holdbacks. But the adversity would make them stronger. Burgers are done C team dad.

How old do you think the kids at Culver are?

BTW how did you get the ages of the "True" freshman at those schools. In 2011 most schools took the DOB off of the website. Lyle Thompson's age has changed at least twice.

I know several of them personally, played with/against my son over the years. They all started college at 18. They are all examples of kids/families that didn't need to resort to cheating the system to try to make their kids look better. Holding back simply does not work for most, as they will be surpassed by better athletes. For holdbacks that are successful, and there are plenty, the sad part is that they would have been just as good if they didn't hold back. it's the same as cheating on a test. You may look good short term, but eventually you will be exposed.

I honestly cant believe the arguments to hold kids back to get an advantage in a dead end sport. Seriously? There is no real pro league or at least one anyone cares about. Maybe Football, Basketball, Baseball, those I would get, BUT LAX? You guys are freakin NUTS

Have your kid read a book once in a while and get off the wall

Studies, US pediatricians board, etc. (look up any study shared by the Times or Post) all have come out stating holding back students (whether for the old school reason that they flunked or the new school reason that they will have better chance to win) is bad for the kid. They actually adjust by dumbing themselves down including emotionally because they are not developing with their proper peer group-- they tend to do poorly adjusting in life, don't handle adversity well, expert preferred treatment, etc. Funny how what used to be a lower-class and minority-dominant issue (flunking) which was determined as bad for all involved is now an upper-class issue (redshirting) championed by prep schools and rich folks in the name of beating out others. YES, Johnny will be better at lacrosse from now through high school. But the experts say he will be worse off in life.

Re-classification works for many of the kids that do it, it is an advantage for those that can afford it, and it is worth it if it helps your kid get into a great school that he would not get into without lacrosse. Zero moral dilemma in helping you child get a foot up in life and it should be used and if you can afford it ....go for it.

To me (my kid is going to a very good D1 and is a 17 year old entering his senior year of HS, Turning 18 in March) it is no different than hiring an SAT tutor, personal trainer or private positional coach. As long as you are following the rules, nobody should be ridiculed for doing what is best for their own kid.

I doubt that a single person on this board, if given the following choice would not pick B.

A) Have your kid stay on grade, do well in school and lacrosse and go to a very good state school and graduate at 22 years old

B) Have your kid repeat kindergarten repeat 8th grade and PG a year before starting HYP as a 20 year old.

IMHO the choice would be B every time.

I would not ever consider doing B - every one has the chance to repeat or delay start of K; not sure everyone could repeat 8th, but considering what I see parents exacting from public schools now a days, if you pushed hard enough, you might be able to make that happen, too; PG costs $, so most wouldn't do it.

Look at this way - given the clear opportunity, would you do the first two within your own public school district? And, by opportunity I mean only that you could do it, not that it would be norm. The reason I put it that way is that in all likelihood, the very act of repeating 8th grade without having to do so would be looked down upon by both the school and probably also by his peers and community - it's looked down upon for a reason. Doing so by 'hiding' it out in the open at a private school doesn't take away the nature of what made it looked down upon within the school community - you just created some distance.

Another point: The number of first- and second-hand times I have heard of the following exchange at this point is beyond counting: You're at a tourney with teams from MA, PA, NJ, DE, and/or MD, and the following Q is asked - "How old is X"? The A is almost always, "He is in Y grade". We all know why the users refuse to answer the actual question - they know they are playing "by the rules" in a grade-based system, but they also know they are gaming the system by having a boy who is older than would otherwise be in that grade, IE, they have reservations about the ethics of it. Otherwise, they would answer the actual Q! That said, the only parents/players that seem to answer this Q directly are from MA - they seem damn proud of their Johnny being older, and the go so far as to ask why more of your son's teams don't reclass/holdback/etc?! (Maybe that's just part and parcel of the whole New England prep school mentality that they are much more involved in.)

Holdbacks do not bother me. My understanding is that in order to "keep up with the Jones" in the prep school world you need to be most likely a double holdback. Have at it. Its just that when you play on your travel lacrosse team, you should play vs. kids your age. The two systems can coexist. 2003 birth years vs 2003 birth years. It doesn't matter if one team has kids planning to graduate HS in 2021 and the other in 2023.

22 + hold back 1 year = 23. What's weird is you had to exaggerate with 24-25 to make a point, or at least try to make sense. Entering the job market in your early twenties is normal, and no particular birth age makes it any more likely than not, has no bearing. This is a bad attempt to make a non-existent point.

Yes that's all true, we called it getting left back, was for the [lacrosse] who couldn't cut it in their own age group. Left behind, while the capable kids got on with their lives. Beyond me why anyone would chose to do this to their kid. But then I have seen plenty of parents get their kids classified for special ed when they weren't in the public school system to get extra services like resource room, extra time etc. Me, I'd rather let my kid learn how to deal with real life challenges so he will know how to cope with being an adult one day.

Because average public education is essentially third world, and when you get to private you realize what you've been missing, and the extra year helps with catching up to reality. An extra year of school is a gift, there is absolutely no negative whatsoever. Private schools are almost universally adopting the pre-first curriculum, and the studies used to develop are probably more relevant than studies focused on kids that fail public school grades (which are the studies referenced in original posts). Sour grapes public school parents love to pretend there is some negative connotation, but it is a ridiculous argument. Do what you want, but don't try to pretend public school education is some gold standard extraordinary system!!! Just keep saying spoiled/rich/privileged, gets your point across better. Stop with the public school pedestal, not so good!!

Well you are sorta right. The only ones gaming the system are the same ones that held their child back to get an advantage against other children. Now these old geezers want it for themselves.

Problem is that they were never any good and still arent. Age is a non factor

Average in general, "yes" - but, the average on LI is WAY higher than general, and in many cases the top 10% publics rival the local privates.

The best are the meathead parents that hold back average kids trying to make them great. Guess what, after the holdback they are bigger, but still AVERAGE.

You people are crazy its a dead end sport.

Grenada is nicer than Beirut also.

It's not a dead end sport. It's just that the "end" -- admission to a strong academic school -- is different than it is for other sports.

That's a ridiculous statement - 12 of the top 50 schools in NYS are on LI (USN News & World Rept), and even more would be included from Long Island were it that they had higher participation in standardized tests (I live in such a district - in top 100 in US for other reports that do not require standardized test participation thresholds). Many of these LI schools are similarly in the top for the entire country! Sorry if you live in one of the districts that isn't cutting it. Don't go away angry - just go away!

Even the trash public school system has to have a best location.

[/quote]

Grenada is nicer than Beirut also. [/quote]

That's a ridiculous statement - 12 of the top 50 schools in NYS are on LI (USN News & World Rept), and even more would be included from Long Island were it that they had higher participation in standardized tests (I live in such a district - in top 100 in US for other reports that do not require standardized test participation thresholds). Many of these LI schools are similarly in the top for the entire country! Sorry if you live in one of the districts that isn't cutting it. Don't go away angry - just go away![/quote]

Even the trash public school system has to have a best location.
[/quote]

#JealousMuch ?

Why do people use steroids? Because they work.

Why do people hold back their kids? Because it works.

You have to adapt to your community. LI has some good schools and Myles Jones PGed. To keep up with the Jones (LOL)

I have four kids, all hold backs. Only one plays sports at a high level. All four are judged based upon their peer group. Being older gives them more opportunities. They win. No cheating just using the arbitrary nature of the system established to treat kids based on their DOB. It is a joke.

Get on board people... we have cookies

Some intellectual honesty might help this discussion. I know this will get ripped - but I’ll bet there are a lot of people with similar stories and it hardly ever gets discussed. And I also know there are people doing extreme things deliberately for an advantage in this sport and others.

If you played lacrosse back 20+/- years ago, you probably have great friends and former teammates from college who likely live in that other place. Did they somehow become evil child abusing cheaters? Over time did they all become whining crybabies? Not likely. What is more likely is that they are sending their kids to school in the way their school system says is best (public or private). People don’t want their kid to be an outlier age wise either way. Is that really hard to understand? Would you swim against the stream if you lived in the other place – and throw out the advice or rules of your school of choice? Most of us are just trying to do what is best for our kids and having them fit in age wise at school seems pretty logical. Forget the nut job double hold-back, double pre-k. pre-pre-first people for a minute, they do enough to ruin this great sport and hi-jack the conversation.

Two of my college teammates and best friends live in MD. They have boys roughly same age as my oldest (few months max). My son is young for his grade by our standards. We are all really close and consider each other “family”. My son plays in one age bracket, their boys play (2) age brackets lower. Call me an exaggerator – this is fact. According to my friends, their boys are average age for their team. I see them at tournaments because their oldest boys play against my next oldest son. Fair? No. Who would really even argue that? Evil? No. Cheating? Again – No. In practical reality - it isn’t up to them. They sent their boys to school the way the schools told them they should in order to attend. Now - they play club lax which is organized by grade. To them, you sign up and tryout and it is based by grade and that is that. I can see their point. These aren’t crazies that did this for an advantage in sports, but they also are guys that don’t deny their sons are advantaged by this set-up. I know their boys really well - they are great kids, really good players who work hard on this game. Win or lose these boys would much rather be playing my their older similar aged "cousin" than battling it out with their little “cousin”.

My friends and I get it – youth results really don’t mean anything – sorry folks, but they really, really don’t. We don’t care about the T-shirts or trophies, but the kids actually do - especially earlier on. When you win one - you want to know you earned it and when you come up short you shouldn’t have a built in excuse. Point – this system sucks for all the kids. Up until at least U15 it should be totally age based. Easy to do and easy to enforce. Better for all the kids. Can’t happen soon enough. My littlest ones are doing NXT, Adrenaline and 3d events when the time comes – I’ll seek out teams that seek that out. Hopefully everyone is along for the ride well before that.

Once they are in HS you have a different conversation - still an advantage, but a 5’10” 175 lb. 16 year old can at least compete v. 6’0” 200 lb. 18 yr. old. Simply not true with 5’2” 110 lb 12 yr. old v. 5’8” 150 lb 14 year old (both of whom btw will likely end up being the same size at the end of the day). It just isn’t good all around.

Club Directors - be as “elite” or AAA+++ as you want, make all the kids buy matching underwear and pajamas for the hotels with logos emblazoned on the sides, charge whatever, make as much money selling the college dream to 9 year old kids as you can, but please do it age based at the youth level. Much better for all the kids and the sport as a whole. Parents - the money you spend on this stuff is not an “investment” it’s a childhood activity for your son. If you view it the other way it clouds your thinking and makes it about the destination not the journey.

Have you ever wondered how your kids would have done in life without cheating? Sad for you that you will never know. You're the Joke. I'm glad I had faith in my kids and let them succeed without being a scumbag. Hope you get cancer and die.