BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums MID-ATLANTIC LACROSSE MARYLAND FORUM Boys 2021

GT v lax factory only close game this weekend. Watch out for lax factory. Looneys/fca also decent game. Others won't be that close.

Does the U. Md. commit still play for Koopers?

I keep hearing about lax factory, what has happened that they are relevant now (not a dig, just curious)?

They probably held back half of their 2020 team....

Not hardly! Kids catching up, improving, surpassing!

[quote=Anonymous]Not hardly! Kids catching up, improving, surpassing![/quote

Maybe or maybe not, but the bottom line is the large group of holdbacks are making a slight difference. They aren't improving/catching up/surpassing, they are just getting older and bigger and should be playing 2020, not 2921. Don't kid yourself, face reality.

Mostly all public school kids. Typically does not apply to that crowd. Very much aware of the rampant pre-first and holdbacks among the DC and Baltimore privates.

2021 teams that have private school kids are loaded with kids reclassed/heldback/ or did prefirst. Fact of life now.

So there cheaters? Stealing spots from kids that do it right

Repeating 8th grade is a popular one.

Kids can either go into high school with poor grades and less mature or they can take a year to get their grades up and mature a little. It's the last chance to do this. Repeating 9th grade doesnt help anything because you've lost a year of eligibility and the grades are on your transcript.

Do you realize how wrong you sound. Everyone knows that grades from 8th grade do not count for anything, unless its a high school class taken in 8th grade. So no kid in 8th grade needs to improve his grades. And if you can afford to pay 18k to 45k for high school for your son. And he is behind in his school learning you are the worst parent on earth. You should of sold the Rolls and got him a tutor way before 8th grade. The mature thing is just code word for gaining 30 pounds and 2 or 3 inches so he can play Var. as a freshman because he really is a Soph. Just tell the truth you are working the system man up and stop hiding behind lies.

You are confusing two subjects that should have nothing to do with each other. What a parent does for his child to get an education is his right and no one has a problem with that. But your choices for your child's education does not give you special privileges in youth sports others dont have.
Youth Sports not High School has always been about even playing field and development of players.
Having select kids that for whatever reason were held back being able to play down, while same exact age kids who parents decided to keep them on grade dont, Just doesnt seem right or in the spirit of Youth Sports.

But we have a huge amount of private school parents and now some public school parents that find nothing wrong with this. There is an advantage to be gained with having your child one of the oldest. Private Schools in MD are the ultimate goal of Lacrosse players and they ate the reason we have this situation

they're
correctly

If you had held back, you would understand.
If you had held back, you would be able to read the rules to the league that you were about to spend thousands of dollars to join.

No. But keep writing and explaining, and I think you will help more people understand the importance of testing when it comes to possibly deviating from the government curriculum.

Actually, the confusion is on your end. Private sports club league rules have nothing to do with education choices that parents make, and grade-based leagues have nothing to do with age. If you would like to talk about rec leagues, a wider age gap exists in each group, so your argument doesn't work there either. There was never an exact birth year league for lacrosse. To fixate on a kid that repeats 8th grade, or whatever grade, when you paid to be in the grade-based league is ignorant. You can protest by not joining grade-based leagues. Aside from kids that repeat in MS, I assume you think pre-first private school kids are doing something wrong too? Really, at 6 years old, I don't think there is some nefarious plot by parents, looking way ahead, before some even play a particular sport, to game a private club league some years down the road.

When a club program made up of nearly all public school kids starts kicking some tail and gets accused of having holdbacks.... you know they are having a great year. #youmadeit

[/quote]
Actually, the confusion is on your end. Private sports club league rules have nothing to do with education choices that parents make, and grade-based leagues have nothing to do with age. If you would like to talk about rec leagues, a wider age gap exists in each group, so your argument doesn't work there either. There was never an exact birth year league for lacrosse. To fixate on a kid that repeats 8th grade, or whatever grade, when you paid to be in the grade-based league is ignorant. You can protest by not joining grade-based leagues. Aside from kids that repeat in MS, I assume you think pre-first private school kids are doing something wrong too? Really, at 6 years old, I don't think there is some nefarious plot by parents, looking way ahead, before some even play a particular sport, to game a private club league some years down the road. [/quote]

Actually, you are trying too hard to justify the farce that "grade based" teams have become in the last three years. You are correct that 'there was never an exact birth year league for lacrosse." However, there were (and still are in rec leagues) "age bands" (i.e. U-9, U-11, U-13 etc.). The age bands were not perfect and were not well enforced, but age mattered (at least around the edges). With the advent of grade based teams, the age of the players has become irrelevant. The only criterion is what grade the player is in regardless of his age. The only limit on how old a player can be and still play on a particular grade based team is how many times the player's parents are willing to "hold back" their son. This has proven to be no limit at all and from my perspective an age band should apply to grade based teams. In other words have grade based teams, but also have an age restriction. Grade based teams have led to wild disparities in the size of the players on the field that would comical except for the danger it presents to smaller players (the smaller players being in many, if not most cases at the appropriate age for the grade).

You are correct that "[y]ou can protest by not joining grade based teams," but that is a straw argument (and I am sure you know that). All of the clubs in the DMV have gone to grade based teams which means if your son wants to play competitive lacrosse he is going to be on a grade based team with players (and players on opposing teams) who may be 2 years older (or in some cases more than two years older). Implicit in this is that players that are "on age" and "on grade" have no basis for complaining. Put another way, the conversation seems to always be that it is the "on age" and "on grade" players (and their parents) who have a problem if they complain about "hold backs" rather than the "over age" and "off grade" player (and their parents) who in many cases are in fact gaming the system and creating the problem.

I would also point out that lacrosse is the only youth sport that I am aware of that has no age bands and does not require proof of age by a birth certificate. Lacrosse is not a special case.

Actually, you are trying too hard to justify the farce that "grade based" teams have become in the last three years. You are correct that 'there was never an exact birth year league for lacrosse." However, there were (and still are in rec leagues) "age bands" (i.e. U-9, U-11, U-13 etc.). The age bands were not perfect and were not well enforced, but age mattered (at least around the edges). With the advent of grade based teams, the age of the players has become irrelevant. The only criterion is what grade the player is in regardless of his age. The only limit on how old a player can be and still play on a particular grade based team is how many times the player's parents are willing to "hold back" their son. This has proven to be no limit at all and from my perspective an age band should apply to grade based teams. In other words have grade based teams, but also have an age restriction. Grade based teams have led to wild disparities in the size of the players on the field that would comical except for the danger it presents to smaller players (the smaller players being in many, if not most cases at the appropriate age for the grade).

You are correct that "[y]ou can protest by not joining grade based teams," but that is a straw argument (and I am sure you know that). All of the clubs in the DMV have gone to grade based teams which means if your son wants to play competitive lacrosse he is going to be on a grade based team with players (and players on opposing teams) who may be 2 years older (or in some cases more than two years older). Implicit in this is that players that are "on age" and "on grade" have no basis for complaining. Put another way, the conversation seems to always be that it is the "on age" and "on grade" players (and their parents) who have a problem if they complain about "hold backs" rather than the "over age" and "off grade" player (and their parents) who in many cases are in fact gaming the system and creating the problem.

I would also point out that lacrosse is the only youth sport that I am aware of that has no age bands and does not require proof of age by a birth certificate. Lacrosse is not a special case.[/quote]

But, it is not grade based with age restriction. So, shut up about gaming the system and cheating and taking advantage. If you fall into the danger argument category, time to pick another sport. Fault the league all you want, stop criticizing parents and kids for signing up correctly within their grade, especially prefirst kids that have absolutely no freaking idea what you are talking about!

And the best ,now we are calling them " Private Sports Clubs" to justify the prefirst/reclass/heldback players being the only group of kids to play down. Hilarious!

You are an apologist for the grade based system of the last few years. Somehow in your mind you justify this with the excuses above . Lacrosse is the only youth sports that is grade base without any age restrictions. Keep telling yourself and the rest of the prefirst/reclass/heldback children's parents you see nothing wrong with it.

Actually, you are trying too hard to justify the farce that "grade based" teams have become in the last three years. You are correct that 'there was never an exact birth year league for lacrosse." However, there were (and still are in rec leagues) "age bands" (i.e. U-9, U-11, U-13 etc.). The age bands were not perfect and were not well enforced, but age mattered (at least around the edges). With the advent of grade based teams, the age of the players has become irrelevant. The only criterion is what grade the player is in regardless of his age. The only limit on how old a player can be and still play on a particular grade based team is how many times the player's parents are willing to "hold back" their son. This has proven to be no limit at all and from my perspective an age band should apply to grade based teams. In other words have grade based teams, but also have an age restriction. Grade based teams have led to wild disparities in the size of the players on the field that would comical except for the danger it presents to smaller players (the smaller players being in many, if not most cases at the appropriate age for the grade).

You are correct that "[y]ou can protest by not joining grade based teams," but that is a straw argument (and I am sure you know that). All of the clubs in the DMV have gone to grade based teams which means if your son wants to play competitive lacrosse he is going to be on a grade based team with players (and players on opposing teams) who may be 2 years older (or in some cases more than two years older). Implicit in this is that players that are "on age" and "on grade" have no basis for complaining. Put another way, the conversation seems to always be that it is the "on age" and "on grade" players (and their parents) who have a problem if they complain about "hold backs" rather than the "over age" and "off grade" player (and their parents) who in many cases are in fact gaming the system and creating the problem.

I would also point out that lacrosse is the only youth sport that I am aware of that has no age bands and does not require proof of age by a birth certificate. Lacrosse is not a special case.[/quote]

But, it is not grade based with age restriction. So, shut up about gaming the system and cheating and taking advantage. If you fall into the danger argument category, time to pick another sport. Fault the league all you want, stop criticizing parents and kids for signing up correctly within their grade, especially prefirst kids that have absolutely no freaking idea what you are talking about!
[/quote]

Pre-firsts are not the real issue and you know it. The issue is the culture of "hold backs" (or the new euphemism "re-grading") in the 7th and 8th grade. I also never said "cheating," you did. It cannot be cheating if the teams are grade based. However, that does not mean that there is not "gaming" going on and it absolutely is "taking advantage". Heck if size (height and weight) were not an advantage there would no point to holding players back. You also flip the argument so that it is up to the "on age" and "on grade" players to man up and deal with the hold backs , or otherwise "pick another sport". As the clubs and leagues are now configured that is the reality, but it does not make it right. The argument is curious. Older kids play down and if the on age kids do not like then, as you say "it is time to pick another sport." Enlightened thinking.

At some point Lacrosse will hopefully do what other youth sports do and impose some age restrictions enforced with birth certificates. Until then the "gaming" will continue.

By the way your last sentence is curious. How could pre-firsts have no "freaking idea" what I am talking about? I suspect that they are not reading this blog.

But, it is not grade based with age restriction. So, shut up about gaming the system and cheating and taking advantage. If you fall into the danger argument category, time to pick another sport. Fault the league all you want, stop criticizing parents and kids for signing up correctly within their grade, especially prefirst kids that have absolutely no freaking idea what you are talking about!
[/quote]

Pre-firsts are not the real issue and you know it. The issue is the culture of "hold backs" (or the new euphemism "re-grading") in the 7th and 8th grade. I also never said "cheating," you did. It cannot be cheating if the teams are grade based. However, that does not mean that there is not "gaming" going on and it absolutely is "taking advantage". Heck if size (height and weight) were not an advantage there would no point to holding players back. You also flip the argument so that it is up to the "on age" and "on grade" players to man up and deal with the hold backs , or otherwise "pick another sport". As the clubs and leagues are now configured that is the reality, but it does not make it right. The argument is curious. Older kids play down and if the on age kids do not like then, as you say "it is time to pick another sport." Enlightened thinking.

At some point Lacrosse will hopefully do what other youth sports do and impose some age restrictions enforced with birth certificates. Until then the "gaming" will continue.

By the way your last sentence is curious. How could pre-firsts have no "freaking idea" what I am talking about? I suspect that they are not reading this blog.[/quote]

Kids that did prefirst that are now in MS, since you and people like you consider them to be hold backs. Yeah, they don't get your BS.

Pre-firsts are not the real issue and you know it. The issue is the culture of "hold backs" (or the new euphemism "re-grading") in the 7th and 8th grade. I also never said "cheating," you did. It cannot be cheating if the teams are grade based. However, that does not mean that there is not "gaming" going on and it absolutely is "taking advantage". Heck if size (height and weight) were not an advantage there would no point to holding players back. You also flip the argument so that it is up to the "on age" and "on grade" players to man up and deal with the hold backs , or otherwise "pick another sport". As the clubs and leagues are now configured that is the reality, but it does not make it right. The argument is curious. Older kids play down and if the on age kids do not like then, as you say "it is time to pick another sport." Enlightened thinking.

At some point Lacrosse will hopefully do what other youth sports do and impose some age restrictions enforced with birth certificates. Until then the "gaming" will continue.

By the way your last sentence is curious. How could pre-firsts have no "freaking idea" what I am talking about? I suspect that they are not reading this blog.[/quote]

Kids that did prefirst that are now in MS, since you and people like you consider them to be hold backs. Yeah, they don't get your BS.
[/quote]

Spin it any way you want. But any child going to kindergarten and then prefirst instead of 1st grade, that child is heldback from 1st grade. Maybe you dont like that word?? What is your word for not moving on to 1st grade?? Prefirst?? That is a grade?

There are many reasons the child doesn't move on to first grade. And that is the right of parent to do what is right for their child. But make up your own word for holding them back in kindergarten. Maybe it will catch on. Still doesnt have anything to do with youth sports? Well all youth sports except the convoluted world of no age limit grade based youth lacrosse.

You youth grade base lacrosse apologists always try to make this some type of education issue?? This is a no age limit sports lacrosse issue which has nothing to do with holding your child back.

Go take a look at the now dormant 2019, 18,17... threads and see all of the angst and consternation that was expressed over this subject several years ago. Unfortunately, none of it did any good then and none of the arguments on the 2020, 21, 22, 23... threads over this subject will do any good now. This falls under "control what you can control" and you can't control it. My 2019 son watched multiple boys he played with and against reclass in 8th grade and we had many long conversations about whether he should do it, if it was fair/ethical, etc and he happily stayed "on age" in his grade. I would say that the gamble to reclass worked out for about half of those boys. The other half are out the cost of an extra year of private school and are still uncommitted.

Until the NCAA does something about it, it will not change. The club coaches, high school coaches and most importantly, the college coaches do not care. If the kid can play and they want him, they don't care how old he is.

Don't let your worries about this or worries about the commitment process rob your son and/or your family of the joys of play. What will be will be.

Criticizing the league is appropriate if you disagree with rules. Criticizing parents or players for following the rules, even though you don't like the rules, is not appropriate. When your son hits high school next year, this will all become distant and insignificant. If he loves the sport, don't contaminate his mind with your rhetoric, whining, and complaining.

But, it is not grade based with age restriction. So, shut up about gaming the system and cheating and taking advantage. If you fall into the danger argument category, time to pick another sport. Fault the league all you want, stop criticizing parents and kids for signing up correctly within their grade, especially prefirst kids that have absolutely no freaking idea what you are talking about!
[/quote]

Pre-firsts are not the real issue and you know it. The issue is the culture of "hold backs" (or the new euphemism "re-grading") in the 7th and 8th grade. I also never said "cheating," you did. It cannot be cheating if the teams are grade based. However, that does not mean that there is not "gaming" going on and it absolutely is "taking advantage". Heck if size (height and weight) were not an advantage there would no point to holding players back. You also flip the argument so that it is up to the "on age" and "on grade" players to man up and deal with the hold backs , or otherwise "pick another sport". As the clubs and leagues are now configured that is the reality, but it does not make it right. The argument is curious. Older kids play down and if the on age kids do not like then, as you say "it is time to pick another sport." Enlightened thinking.

At some point Lacrosse will hopefully do what other youth sports do and impose some age restrictions enforced with birth certificates. Until then the "gaming" will continue.

By the way your last sentence is curious. How could pre-firsts have no "freaking idea" what I am talking about? I suspect that they are not reading this blog.[/quote]

Have a little free time on your hands! My lord, lacrosse must have been a very mediocre experience for you. For that, I am sorry, but yikes, time to move on to something else, don't you think?

What is Peninsula Lacrosse Club all about? I had never heard of them. Then I saw that they are playing HoCo.

The gamble to reclass or have children that did prefirst years ago is a decent gamble. You say 50% it works for, that you noticed. That is a good indicator of why more and more will hold their child back. 50% shot if he is the oldest, or more than likely a 0-25% chance if not the oldest.
I see this issue not going away. Private schools love this as their kids get to be the oldest on the many club teams. More playing time, etc.

This issue is not going away and the amount of kids heldback will only grow. Only a fool would not hold their child back if they could. Especially a prefirst year. That has less stigma according to many here.

It does seem like old news to many as your their son gets to the end of his HS time tho.. But along the way for many who didnt go that route. Watching their child always competing for a spot against an older child is a little disheartening.

They have been a very good club for many years out of Anne Arundel county.

If your kid is competing with a really good player that happens to be a year older, tell your kid to play against him as much as possible in practice and/or games. Middle school ball is about getting better, at the sake of sometimes not being able to be the best player on the field in front of mommy and daddy. If your kid is the best on the team or best in the league in middle school, find a more challenging team/league, as he isn't progressing to his potential. If you are really serious about long-term, you should want your current middle school league to be riddled with holdbacks and double holdbacks. If you just want to go through the motions and love just winning games, play on a B rec team. Getting better, great coaching, and great fundamentals are the wins you need to be worrying about right now.

So the on age player that is on an elite team with many holdbacks and double holdbacks, but is a back up should feel grateful that he is behind a holdback on the depth chart?

This board would be so interesting if we discussed (nicely) the kids teams and games.......instead of the endless holdback whining. It is what it is, until rules say differently,

Yup, because he gets to play behind such special (and older) players. The logic is perverse. My son plays down and your son should be thankful. Right........

Most never double holdback because they would have to forfeit their senior year. You can't be 19 at the start of your senior year and still play.

To clarify that you cannot be 19 before Jan 1st. You can turn 19 on the 1st and eligible.

MIAA Rules -

2. Age Limitations

A student who has attained his/her 19th birthday before August 31 of a given academic year is not eligible to participate.

A student who has attained his/her 19th birthday on or after August 31st of a given academic year may participate only on the Varsity level.

Watched a few of the Elite game this weekend. Some of the games were like watching men vs boys. Start learning about teams with 10-15 year plus older kids and you can see why half the teams are 0-2 and loosing bad.... I guess a kid really has to get hurt by an older player before this league starts a grade and age based solution....

Yes, you get better in practice, and those other kids are in a league with rules too. You always play against the best possible competition. To worry about the age of the kid ahead of you is a waste of time, as again, you are in a league with rules. You either want to get better over time, or you already want to appear to be the best. In today's generation, this is not popular, but it is fact. Even if there was an exact birth year age group in MS, it wouldn't be realistic, as when you get to HS, you play against all years. Having an age spread is better for the younger kids. This is why the holdback argument is no longer in the threads above 2021. Next year, there will be no mention of this in the 2021.

Does Next Level and BLC all pull from the same pool of kids?

I remember hearing on this board that all of the top talent from BLC went to DC Express. Is the same true for NL?

Not exactly a great point.... Varsity kids play Varsity kids.... JV kids play JV kids.... It would be mentioned if Varsity kids played against Freshman teams.... Basically what happening around town in youth 7th and 8th grade lacrosse... Men vs Boys....

JV teams have average 2 year age spread, Varsity teams have average 2-3 year age spread, sometimes 4 if you have some really good Freshman. No, dude, not comparable to 7th and 8th grade club ball at all, where folks are whining about average 1-2 year age spreads because of the mix of private and public school kids. Again, get your whining in this year, because a big old dose of reality sets in next year.