BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums MID-ATLANTIC LACROSSE MARYLAND FORUM Boys 2022

[quote=Anonymous]If it is hard and legal, how can it also be excessive?[/quot

When you see a player get a 6 to 10 foot full running start and plow into a player at full speed, that is excessive. Some of these hits, that are legal but considered excessive will be called. These kind of hits are what cause concussions and other serious and unnecessary injuries even though they are a "legal" hit. Illegal hits, high or to the head or cross checks etc are easier to call. Excessive hits are at times subjective, but it is better to error on the side of caution than to allow this type of behavior to continue. No need for a player to get injured because some knucklehead gave a hard and somewhat cheap shot. The lacrosse powers, from college to the very youngest youth levels are looking at this and doing everything that can be done to stop this and make the game safer. Lacrosse is still a contact sport and will remain so but not to the level it was heading a few years ago.

You contradict yourself and make no sense. A running hit from 6-10 feet which you label excessive is not legal so the term excessive has no meaning. Then you refer to hard and somewhat cheap shot. A cheap shot by definition would not be legal. Lose the hyperbole. A body check is legal or it is not. Seems you prefer to eliminate body checks. You prefer lacrosse played as basketball. So remove the equipment and the contact.

I don't believe he contradicted himself at all, seems you are trying to read too much into what is being explained and also it becomes apparent you do not have a deep knowledge of lacrosse. An excessive hit can be a cheap shot but not by true definition illegal. Not every body check is legal, go get yourself a rule guide and do some reading. Your comment about basketball and removing equipment is off base and truthfully rather childish. Actually your post makes no sense. The post you are referring to seems clear and on point.

Let's move on. Lots of rules experts coming out of the woodwork because one guy misread a post. Everyone is on the same page about player safety and in the end, the refs call the game.

Anyone been getting on fields lately?

Snow covered but hopefully will melt soon. Same thing happened last year with the temps. Was much warmer in Jan and Feb then got much colder in March and April. I can remember last years HOCO championship game in mid May, temp was high 40's. Lets hope it warms up so the kids and fans can play and watch at a comfortable 60-65 degrees.

Yup, that is just what youth lacrosse needs lot of hard hitters. Haven't you noticed that lacrosse is trying to take this kind of mentality out of the game. Officials are instructed to look to this kind of behavior and to toss the flag every time they see it. I realize and appreciate that lacrosse is a contact sport, but not to the level and extent that it encourages or promotes hard hits. This is true for all levels. from Div 1 college down to the youngest youth level. Kids at this level need to work on stick skills, teamwork and improving their lacrosse IQ, not going around playing like a Neanderthal. I have been an official for over 10 years and do games at the Div 1 level and I do and will continue to penalize anyone acting like this. There are certain teams that seem to promote this kind of behavior, even at the youth level and all officals know who they are and look for it in every game.
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Hard legal body checks are very much a part of the game. If you were a ref, you would know that "hard" is not a parameter for determining the legality of a body check in lacrosse.
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Wrong. Hard legal excessive body checks will definitely be called. This is what lacrosse wants out of the game and will call games much tighter and if it happens you get penalized.
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There is legal, and there is illegal. There is no excessive legal, or it would be illegal.

Hard legal body checks are very much a part of the game. If you were a ref, you would know that "hard" is not a parameter for determining the legality of a body check in lacrosse.
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Wrong. Hard legal excessive body checks will definitely be called. This is what lacrosse wants out of the game and will call games much tighter and if it happens you get penalized.
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There is legal, and there is illegal. There is no excessive legal, or it would be illegal.
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Good grief, give it a break. Love how all the experts show up and start brain [lacrosse]*king this to death. Go preach somewhere else, we are tired of hearing it.

Ummm, yes there is...

NCAA Rulebook 5.5.c Unnecessary Roughness... "Any act on the part of a player that is deliberate and excessively violent, whether it be with the body or crosse."

NFHS rule 5.9.3 is worded mostly the same and has two additional important qualifiers... "Any avoidable act on the part of a player that is deliberate and excessively violent, whether it be with the body or crosse. This may include a legal body check." (emphasis mine)

Officials are taught to call unnecessary roughness on what would otherwise be a legal body check if it is more violent than necessary to separate the player from the ball.

I notice a lot of colleges are playing zone defense this year..

Maybe they have been watching the Diamondbacks.....lol

Otherwise known as illegal.

Score from Hawks vs. Rough Riders scrimmage?

Only people that know the game understand the need for zone defenses. Those that don't know the game criticize.

Ignorance is bliss.

Top Secret

No need for a zone defense at this age. Teach the kids to move their feet and play man to man. Strictly about the wins if you are playing a zone at this age.

Introduction to zone is completely appropriate at this age. Most club and competitive travel teams are expected to play to win at this age.

You'll see more zone defenses in high school when the coaches realize that the kids weren't taught how to play good man to man defense.

That's a load of crap. Yes, clubs try to win. But most 7th grade coaches don't feel the need to play zone in order to do it as their "primary" job is to develop the players and prepare them to play for their HS teams. As a parent of a LSM, I would be quite irritated if my son was playing a lot of zone defense as opposed to developing skills to play one on one defense, learning the proper slides, etc. Much more important than a free t-shirt.

This must be trolling ...

Hard legal body checks are very much a part of the game. If you were a ref, you would know that "hard" is not a parameter for determining the legality of a body check in lacrosse.
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Wrong. Hard legal excessive body checks will definitely be called. This is what lacrosse wants out of the game and will call games much tighter and if it happens you get penalized.
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There is legal, and there is illegal. There is no excessive legal, or it would be illegal.
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This forum isn't full of morons after all.

Introducing the concept is much different than making it primary. But then again, reading and the ability to comprehend are different as well, as you make abundantly clear.

There is no reason to teach zone to middle school kids. They will learn it when they get to high school. It's not like there is a specific skill set that needs to be developed to excel in a zone defense.

HoCo week 1

Hawks Green vs. API Diamondbacks
Rough Riders vs. Next Level Black
Team 91 vs. Bethesda Blue
FCA - Blue vs. Madlax - Capital

I've got Hawks, NL, Bethesda, and Madlax starting 1-0.

Most competitive club players are going to have some zone experience, or at least a more than elementary understanding on the concepts going into HS. With clubs running basically year round, the only reason to not introduce is if the coach does not understand. The only people viewing this negatively are those that have kids that haven't learned it yet. Otherwise, why care what some other kid learns..

Yes , Spent too many hours, days and nights in-between the lines and outside the lines. Again, you being a referee or myself doesn't gives us the authority to come on here and bash an entire league or let everyone know how great you are. You are not the only one who cares for these players. I have done more than you will ever know. I just don't go around spewing about it. There are a ton of dads and parents with more lacrosse knowledge than you on here. So just worry about your job and protecting the kids during the game . Original post was meant to say how great it is to see many top teams facing each other the first week. Thanks for your expertise and sincerely hope you go into each game with fairness and call each game correctly. The rules are not new and the league is just making it clear FINALLY what will not be tolerated. This is a direct result of parents coaches and clubs voices being heard by a league that as quickly dominated the lacrosse landscape in Maryland. I was referee and a coach and support the ALL who have a hand in making the sport safer and better. I do not support referees who think they are high and mighty and continuously make the game about them . This is me heckling you.. Cheers

API
RR
Bethesda
FCA

Week one

Hawks
RR
Bethesda
FCA

Heckle all you want. Reading comprehension is clearly not one of your strong points. No one, and I mean no one, is making the game about them and there are no referees who believe or act like they are high and mighty, to use your words, and make the game about them. Ref a game once, see how easy it is not and your eyes need to be all over the place. I and every ref that I know today puts players safety above all else. This is the direction and the mandate that lacrosse wants and needs to take and it is long overdo, especially given how is got out of hand in the 80's. As the game became more popular and grew, there was this belief, especially from the misinformed parents, that lacrosse was a game to be played with brutal hits etc. I can remember parents cheering when a player was decked, excessive hit, they thought that was great. I saw this first hand. The game is getting back to where it needs to be and it is up to everyone involved to contribute and reinforce this direction including coaches, parents, players, administrators and referees.
But to make a statement that a ref is trying to make the game about him is way off base and your are clearly not reading what was said.
This is me heckling you.

Back pedal all you want.

Did Next Level Spartans get some new kids or is it basically the same team as last year.

From what I have seen so far this year from fall to indoor and now spring the Hawks will be the team to beat this year. Midfield/face off is this their strength.

RR is going to be the most improved team this year. Has added great attack and upgraded their defense to add to a solid mid field and goal. They have struggled at the X.

API , BCL , 91 , Mad , FCA , Crabs all are very strong and talented. Not a ton of upgrades but teams are always going to be in it until the end

NL is what I have seen as the weakest. Again still strong and can beat anyone if they play their best game but the few teams I watched them they looked disorganized on plays.

The best thing with the HOCO league this year is that all of the teams playing in the Elite league are going to be good and I look forward to watching some great lacrosse this spring.

On another note what happened to the other league at St. Paul's? Looks very weak this year.

1st weekend

Hawks
RR
BLC
FCA

Half the team is new. They are big and athletic, not sure how they will compete.

I find it very odd you left Madlax Capital off this post all together. Are you trying to say they will be the worst team in the Elite bracket? Or are you just someone who has issues with Madlax so you omit them to be a Jerk?

You must be Madlax for life.

No Mad Lax is in there read the entire post.

API , BLC , 91 , MAD , FCA , CRABS 3rd line down

Does the Hawks have a new FOGO from last summer?

seriously did you even red the post entirely.

Why doesn't lacrosse just remove body checks from the game. The game currently allows it and coaches teach it, but kids get penalized and leave the field confused when the flags get thrown. So can someone please define legal versus illegal hits.

I would really like to see this discussion get rolling. My son is a slim but solidly built defender who often gets flagged for hits that appear legal to me. It seems to me that he is being flagged for being 3 inches taller and bigger than the other kids. So I would really like to know what an illegal hit is, as well as the criteria that refs are looking at when throwing flags.

From my perspective, all hits to the head, above the shoulder, and from behind should be eliminated. What confounds me, however, is when my kid gets flagged for hits not meeting this criteria. I am further troubled by the fact that my kid is routinely confused about why he keeps getting flagged for body checks. On one hand the kids are taught that the only way to slide and take away a shot that is already in motion is to attack the body, but at the same time we are increasingly flagging this behavior. Perhaps I just need to have a better understanding of the rules. Can someone please weigh in?

Also, I would like to see refs counsel the youngsters who get flagged for the more aggressive hits we are talking about. If we really want the game to be safer, the perpetrators (our kids) need to understand why the flags are thrown. I know that in the case of my son, he typically does not understand why he was penalized. In my opinion, this education falls on both the refs and coaches at the youth level.

If a player drives the dirt, with the ball, a hard body check is permissible, below the shoulders. If a player is receiving a pass, in the dirt, and a hard poke, stick check or firm bump will stop the play, OK. But to take two steps or more and bury him will be flagged.

Ground balls- play the ball first. Approaching a ball from opposite directions, play the ball. In a 2v1 GB, its Ok to run a player off the ball or knock him off track.

It really isn't that complicated. Play the ball first. Attack a ball carrier. Players competing for a ground ball or a pass, play the ball first then body him not bury him.

Smacking the back of your sones head and punching him in the face will both get his attention but one is highly unnecessary.