BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums MID-ATLANTIC LACROSSE MARYLAND FORUM Greater Howard Club Lacrosse Conference (HoCo)

He has been w FCA since last year apparently so would guess he is on their roster. If your coach feels strongly about it, the rules say he has to formally complain and pay to get a decision. Crazy they expect you to pay to ask them to enforce their rules and do their job but those are the rules.

Spoken like a true cheater. You Must be Crabs.

Crabs and Looneys can make a formal complaint against FCA for breaking the rules of 1) players not following normal progression 2) adding to their roster and 3) having a high school player.

Looneys and FCA can make a formal complaint against crabs for using mostly holdbacks on an 8th grade team.

FCA and crabs can formally complain against loooneys for using an illegal high school player.

May the biggest cheater win! What a sad state of affairs - thank you Hoco for bringing youth lacrosse to this new level of champions while the true champions of the sport -the kids that follow rules- get subjected to the nonsense every week. These are 13/14 year old KIDS that you are complacent about.

Would be a true test if the kids were, the same age, from the same region, we're all non high school players and there were no roster changes but that would mean following published rules. Even kids having fun know that they are being let down by the adults who are manipulating the game just to win. In this environment, they are being taught to be selfish and do whatever they can do to win. Better lesson would be to witness adults calling other adults out to follow rules.

I don't have a dog in this fight but from afar I can't understand what all of the bitterness is about. The intent of an "elite" league is to have the best possible competition. Why would you sign up for an elite league and then get mad when other teams bring in great players. Those players are enhancing your son's experience not detracting from it. If your son is a FOGO you should want him to face the kid from Florida. By all accounts the games have been extremely competitive. You are lucky to have such a great league without having to travel. If the trophy and bragging rights are so important to you, sign up for an easier league.

How can there be seedings when the season isnt over yet? I always thought they did goals against as the first tiebreaker.

I can live with the FOGO. He is on age and plays for his HS team in Florida. Not exactly a hotbed for lacrosse. The 16 year old Crabs players - that's another story. They should not be allowed to play on a 2020 team.

honesty and sportsmanship is what is important to most. Still would be an elite league without having folks blatantly disregarding the published rules - where does it stop and where do we stop hiding behind excuses or justifications? Kids have to make a choice - you play for a high school, you forfeit your spring youth league. You hold back for purpose of looking better for college; you do not get to play 8th grade and beat on kids who have not hit puberty yet. Why do we feel we have to let these kids and their families do whatever they want? Just because they are elite players, does not mean that good sportsmanship, safety and character should be forgotten - they are subject to rules like there are in real life. You also have not considered the safety issues involved in some of these "elite" games. 200 plus pounds of man like muscle playing against a 13 year old pre puberty boy of 115 pounds? What is fun about watching that? One belongs on the field being on age and one does not being a holdback. Occasionally you will have an true 14 year old of that weight but not teams full of them. It is not about a trophy except to those teams manipulating rules to do everything to win one.

The only way one of those four teams is not in the playoffs is whoever is the 4th seed loses to the 5th seed in the play in game Friday night.

Above poster is spot on. Parents have lost sight what is important....

Given the season, any of the 7 teams could compete in the playoffs and be successful but need to cut it off somewhere so good luck to the four that make it.

I guess you forgot the MAIN thing..This is YOUTH lacrosse with children playing from 9 to 14 years of age. Well supposedly 2020/U14 is 14 at most but with the ignorant HOCO rules you can be whatever.It isnt HS MIAA or College or Pro, its YOUTH. Did you forget that???? You do remember the concept of youth sports?

It is great that it is ELITE..But it is YOUTH and there should be no special advantage to certain children that have been held back, even at ELITE level. The special kids will get their advantage on school teams. Not YOUTH sports.

EXACTLY..Unfortunately HOCO the cesspool of an organization has enabled this. Howard County should be ashamed of what they have done to youth lacrosse in Maryland. ASHAMED!

The ELITE divisions were invitation only. And all teams that were invited have holdbacks. The clubs could have said no, we'll play in AA. [lacrosse] at your club director, not HOCO. Although considering all the clubs in the Elite divisions have holdbacks, I must assume you are with a lesser club. Are you just mad that your team wasn't invited to play in the Elite division. If you are in the Elite division, do you complain to the holdbacks parents on your team or just come here to [lacrosse] anonymously? Do you complain to your club director that they are fielding teams with older kids? What are you doing to change things other than whining on here?

Stop pointing your fingers at HOCO. They have built the league around the structure that all the Elite clubs want. Every team below the Elite Divison(Or AA for younger ages without and Elite division) are just cashing your checks and laughing that you are paying thousands of dollars for glorified rec lacrosse so you can say little Johnny plays club lacrosse. So who are the ignorant ones here?

Not ALL the elite clubs have holdbacks. Some may have late birthdays or pre-first kids. Certainly most of them don't have multiple 16 years olds on an 8th grade team (Crabs). As a municipal government - Howard Co. has a responsibility to at least provide some oversight to insure the safety of the children playing. They are failing miserably in that regard. One look at the Crabs roster an birthdates and any idiot could see something isn't right.

I would expect SOMEONE in the Howard County government to say that 16 year olds in 8th grade is not a natural grade progression and those kids cannot play. They are complicit by their silence.

Whatever. All the clubs knew the deal when they joined the league. ALL THE CLUBS ARE COMPLICIT IN THIS. I've never heard Kevin Doyle complain or the Kellys or Matt Hogan or any other club director from the top teams. Unlike the idiots on here, they understand what a grade-based league is. HOCO provides up to 4 divisions for teams to play in for each age. If you don't want to play against those kids, play in one of the other 3 options. No one forced your club to play there, but I'm guessing your club doesn't.

previous guy is right. if your son is one of the teams that plays against crabs you should take it with your coach/director. FCA, Looneys, 91, Hawks, Madlax all signed up for Carbfeast tournament. It is their to play each other. Your prefirst kids are hold backs too.

Agreed. Why did they bother publishing rules and then ignoring them? The rules were there for a reason and then were ignored. That IS an issue and one Hoco should have addressed instead of throwing it back to parents and club directors. You have a responsibility for oversight or teams are going to continue to do whatever they want. Clubs are going to do whatever they can get away - organizations like Hoco are supposed to be the check and balance on that if they are offering and making money on a league.

Wow...so many parents that don't get high level sports. You think it's about ethics and morals. It's not. It's about winning. Always has been. Watch the recent news and see Russia and Kenya may be banned from Rio because of the overwhelming use of performance enhancing drugs. These are Olympic athletes that are some of best in the world but they still cheat for an advantage and to ensure they WIN. People so upset that some young men are a year or 2 older. Who cares. Always will be cheaters. Worry about your kid, your message to them and how they grow from competition. Win or lose. Maybe hold backs are same kids that using PEDs when older. You can't control other people's choices. Most on age kids could care less about hold backs. Next year there will be tons of kids older. Teach them to compete and not complain.

Not whatever. Exactly why youth lacrosse is the mess it is - the whatever attitude. Parents joined your league assuming that the rules would be followed as published by Hoco. You did not follow your rules and pointing at Hogan, Kelly etc. does not make it okay. You were the oversight - divisions are to be based on talent - not age. It is not okay to say 15 and 16 year olds are in the elite division just because it is elite. They do not belong any where in youth lacrosse - period. There are many on age elite players who you disregarded in your pursuit to make Ryan, Hogan, Kelly etc. happy. They are driven by $$ and will do whatever they can to win - Hoco was supposed to offset that and watch out for the kids who are doing it correctly who actually belong playing in the league - not the holdbacks, not the kids that have played high school etc. Grade based is NOT the same as "Grade based assuming the normal progression through school" in any league.

NO KID IN THIS AT ALL BUT WHAT I CANT UNDERSTAND IS IF YOUR AFRAID YOUR CHILD WILL GET HURT WHY PLAY THE GAME? SIMPLY PLAY IN A LEAGUE THAT PLAYS BY THE RULES YOU WANT TO PLAY. WETHER ITS AGE BASED OR NO BODY CHECKING ETC. NOBODY IS MAKING YOU PLAY IN THIS LEAGUE,,,,

HOCO is a cesspool of Recreation org and Howard County Government should be ashamed of what they have done to youth Lacrosse.

I like how you do the normal insulting like most holdback apologists..""lesser club, team not invited, etc"

Nothing was built around the structure ALL clubs wanted. What a load of BS. There was an "Elite league" when it was age based called NPYLL, and it had BEST players for many many years. And you never heard the vitrol like you hear now.

Howard County wanted to utilize their fields and make some money off them. But the HOCO Management decided to go grade base for some reason still not clear to anyone. Howard County Rec Department obviously had some ties to the Private schools and that had some reason to do with it?? But all other Leagues in Howard County are AGE BASED!! As matter of FACT..HOCO first year most teams were age base. But with this HOCO grade base league many Clubs with ties to MIAA kids decided to go FULL blown and push it to the limit. Are you such a moron not to realize that the Clubs with MIAA ties have the most prefirst/holdback kids??

So I will continue along with many others to point out what a cesspool Howard County Rec is for destroying the intergity of YOUTH lacrosse. Now you can go back to thinking how great you are and your son is for pounding on younger kids, but for some reason couldn't play against kids his own age??

They also didnt DEMAND that there be a league for prefirst/holdbacks formed so we could all pat ourselves on back ..how great an elite league we had in Maryland. They are just going with what is presented to them. Some are better at taken advantage of the situation than others. If it was age base it would have similar high quality teams. It just would be more in the model for YOUTH sports.

Really? This is YOUTH lacrosse - not Rio, not college. How about teaching youth what is right? The league is supposed to control other people's choices when they are breaking the rules but clearly they have missed that point.

I don't disagree that the club owners are complicit. This is a business for them. Winning means more parents paying money to chase a unicorn (lacrosse scholarship). I hope the NCAA stops early recruiting and we can get some sanity back in youth lax.

Did you forget that this is YOUTH sports for children 9 to 15??
This league is run by a Howard County Recreation Department. Whose goal is to promote Youth Sports in County??

So according to you, it is ALL about winning for the 9 and 10 year olds ?? I say if so..Time to give them some PED's now, why wait, lets get that win for our 10 year olds.
I am amazed constantly by some of the things that people write and believe here.

Thanks Ryan..Take caps off next time please

You really need to play Rec..... This is big boy club ball...and if you can't handle bigger and better kid beating the crap out of you then you need to get out of this sport...Tired of [lacrosse] babies on this site.....

My mistake, I didnt know what "big boy lacrosse" meant. Didnt realize it meant only certain kids are allowed to play DOWN..Just a select group of kids heldback in Kindergarden thru 8 grade get to play down. Then these older big boys playing down get to dominate the younger players..Got it now Mister Big Boy.

Bigger issue is people like you who are so tough and want their Big Boys to dominate younger kids..

Parents didn't join the league, the clubs did. Parents choose to pay the club directors thousands of dollars. The clubs are following the rules as published by HOCO. Did you miss the part where it says that the league is grade based? Age is never mentioned in the rules posted. There are older kids on many teams, whether they are in the Elite division or not.

I have asked before and never received an answer. IS THERE ANY MD CLUB TEAM THAT EXPLICITLY DOES NOT ALLOW HOLDBACKS?

I know that the answer to that question is no. Teams that don't have them just didn't have any come out for or accept spots on the team. Everyone knows these are the rules. Yet all day, every day people come here to complain.

Nope...My kid plays up....always has....Plays against the best and he is one of the best...We don't shy away from great competition even though they may be a year older or so....Play Rec and don't bore us with you freaking complaining.... Your ruining club lacrosse...

Play Rec....Please You are ruining club lacrosse...Not everyone get a [lacrosse] trophy here....

Yea Right..You are a Big Boy I forgot.. You only Play Real competition.Hilarious....You have no idea that you sound like a block headed moron..But keep telling us how tough you are and anyone not ough like you should be playing rec..LOL

Keep crying [lacrosse]

We do need your [lacrosse] entitlement, or your [lacrosse] complaints, or your [lacrosse] rules.... Play Rec... They have rules there where your kid can succeed. Club lacrosse is not for everyone...Leave your complaints are not welcomes here because you will ruin it and then the talented kids have no where to play

He is right...Go play fair lacrosse...Rcc needs you....You cant make your team better by coming on here making up stuff and complaining....No one cares about your mediocre kid that gets his [lacrosse] kicked by teams that you think don't play fair...[lacrosse] off and leave club lacrosse...You are ruining it...

There are several levels of competition. The 115 lb 13 year old can play in whatever league is best for him. If he hasn't hit puberty he probably shouldn't be in the elite league. The only reason he isn't in an appropriate league is that his parents are hung up on him being in the "elite" league rather than at a level where he can be successful. Hoco has created leagues where every kid from the very best to rec level kids can play against like competition. That is what youth sports is supposed to be about. The problem is parents who are either hung up on labels or unrealistic about what level their son should be playing at. If one of the team's was dominant that would be a problem but from all accounts the games are very competive.

My money is that it is a Hoco rep.

Only bigger because they are two years older - definitely not better because 1) they are not playing up where they belong and 2) need to beat the crap out of kid on the field shows they and you do not know anything about what this sport is about. Just another macho dad living through his son. Sadder than sad.

Look in a mirror - it is people like yourself who have an attitude of anything goes who are ruining club lacrosse. If a child needs to play down, they are not talented! They are just bigger and the only thing they can do is run faster and beat up on younger per-pubescent boys. The fact that you think this means more talented shows you are more delusional than most thought. Take all the kids who are breaking the rules and go start your own elitist, I can do anything I want club. The majority in club ball are doing it right - folks like you are ruining it. Shhh...don't talk about the truth...it might ruin youth lacrosse if we let everyone know how come my son looks better.