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 Re: High School Lax Girls
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A player moving from MS to Jv or Varsity usually occurs in a smaller district. It can be done to help fill out a need in a specific position etc. it can also be done to help give a player valuable experiences that they will not get playing Jr high teams. JV will play more games, usually have better coaching and more intensive training and competition. A players maturity and well being should be considered by the coaches and parents during this time to ensure it is what is best for all involved. Some towns have youth teams that average 10-12 kids per grade, when you lose kids along the way to music, other sports, social interests the need arises to add kids from another grade to support the program.
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Re: High School Lax Girls
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privates don't allow MS boys/girls to play up on HS level teams...seems silly to have a Designated Hitter-like rule where one group allows(publics) and another does not (privates/Catholic)..make it uniform and be done with it...small towns I guess could benefit but larger school districts prob could do just as well without allowing MS kids to play up.... Apples to oranges Private schools with the exception of Kellenberg do not have middle schools
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Re: High School Lax Girls
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really?...St. Marys, Saint Dominic don't have middle schools? ok, now start the bashing....
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Re: High School Lax Girls
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oh and LuHi?....sure there are few more....
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Re: High School Lax Girls
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privates don't allow MS boys/girls to play up on HS level teams...seems silly to have a Designated Hitter-like rule where one group allows(publics) and another does not (privates/Catholic)..make it uniform and be done with it...small towns I guess could benefit but larger school districts prob could do just as well without allowing MS kids to play up.... Apples to oranges Private schools with the exception of Kellenberg do not have middle schools Forget the MS at Kellenberg, they don't even pull up deserving sophomores!!
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Re: High School Lax Girls
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I am curious has past history of towns bringing up 7 & 8 graders to Varsity ever won anything? Yes , all three state championship teams from last year have a history of moving middle school players up to the varsity. West Islip does not have a history of moving MS players to Varsity. In their history only one girl has been brought up to Varsity as an 8th grader and she turned out to be an All American as a Junior. So what you are saying is your program has a history of moving a player from middle school to varsity but you do not want that to count. She is a very good player and deserved to be moved up so they did , end of story. No, I think the poster is saying that 1 girl being pulled up over however many years does not qualify as "having a history" of doing so. She was the exception, and apparently deservedly so. Are you dense ? I don't care if they have done it 1 or 5 times they have "an established record " of moving a kid up which gives them a history of doing so. Deservedly so because she became an all American is more an opinion than factual. Knowing the kid she absolutely deserved to be pulled up , knowing the way the all American selection process works tells me that moniker means very little (very political) .The fact remains that any public school that can claim to be defending state champs in girls lacrosse this season have a history of pulling up middle school kids to play varsity lacrosse. You're kind of right, If you do something once you have a history, Doing that thing continuously establishes a policy. Over the last 9 years of L.I. and State champs you can see a pattern.Not being sure of the make up of every team involved, I'm pretty sure FDale, 'set, GC and NPT, do not make bringing up M.S. kids policy ( not that they don't do it, the kid needs to be special) I am not sure about SWR so maybe someone can tell us, I'm pretty sure at the time it wasn't policy out of 9 years (2007-2015) FDale made 8 Li champ winning 6 with 6 state titles GC made 6 LI champ winning 6 with 6states SWR made 5 LI champ winning 5 with 5 states 'set made 6 LI champ winning 1 with 1 state NPT made 3 LI champs winning 1 with 1 state This history tells me that schools that play MOSTLY upperclassmen win, schools that resort to pulling up M.S. kids don't fare as well
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Re: High School Lax Girls
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Are the people that make the most noise about this the parents who's kid gets bumped for a younger player and then they all cry foul? To the vocal posters, if it was your 8th grader getting pulled up would you tell the coach no she's too young?
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Re: High School Lax Girls
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I am curious has past history of towns bringing up 7 & 8 graders to Varsity ever won anything? Yes , all three state championship teams from last year have a history of moving middle school players up to the varsity. West Islip does not have a history of moving MS players to Varsity. In their history only one girl has been brought up to Varsity as an 8th grader and she turned out to be an All American as a Junior. So what you are saying is your program has a history of moving a player from middle school to varsity but you do not want that to count. She is a very good player and deserved to be moved up so they did , end of story. No, I think the poster is saying that 1 girl being pulled up over however many years does not qualify as "having a history" of doing so. She was the exception, and apparently deservedly so. Absolutely the kid is a stud
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Re: High School Lax Girls
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I am curious has past history of towns bringing up 7 & 8 graders to Varsity ever won anything? Yes , all three state championship teams from last year have a history of moving middle school players up to the varsity. Good Coaches: - know how to earn the respect of their players. - know how to identify talent. - know how to develop talent. - know how to utilize talent. - know how to encourage. - know how to build confidence. - know how to lead. - know how to teach. - know how to create and maintain team enthusiasm. - know how to help kids develop character. - know how to motivate. - know how to build comradery. - know how to create a positive environment. - know how to get the most of of their players. - know how to build a team. - know how to do the right thing. - know how to learn from mistakes. - know how to make adjustments. - know how to lose. - know how to coach. - know how to win. A bad coach will not know how to do any of the above. Poor coaching and leadership are difficult things for athletes to overcome. In most cases it takes a strong leader and a good coach to win a championship even when they have talented athletes. Success (in HS sports) should not always be measured in wins and losses. A bad coach will create division and destroy the moral of a team. They may win games and maybe even win a championship but they will never be successful. How is your coach? You contradict yourself. In your list you say know how to win, then you go on to say a bad coach can't do any of these, then you say at the end of your post that a bad coach may even win a championship. Which is it? Just anither armchair quaterback (armchair coach in this case). I am sure you are an expert. Read some of Coach John Wooden's books then get back to us on how to be a good coach. It's much deeper than that. No contradiction, was implying: know how to win and lose "gracefully". I was not speaking about "winning a game". No armchair coaching here, and I was not writing a book. Just a quick 30 second rundown of some of the things a good HS coach knows how to do. You come off as bitter about something. Or maybe you are a self conscious coach who thinks that I am writing about you. Maybe you are one of the coaches who does not know how to do any of the above.
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Re: High School Lax Girls
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Northport has had numerous girls pulled up over the years. Fortunato and Gilroy are 2 of many.
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Re: High School Lax Girls
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Northport has had numerous girls pulled up over the years. Fortunato and Gilroy are 2 of many. It's funny that you bring up Northport, If you look at the list, with all the pull ups that you say they have they are one of the least successful programs on the list
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Re: High School Lax Girls
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Northport has had numerous girls pulled up over the years. Fortunato and Gilroy are 2 of many. It's funny that you bring up Northport, If you look at the list, with all the pull ups that you say they have they are one of the least successful programs on the list You really are pathetic , someone lists a few of the most successful programs and that's what you have to say . So you know SWR has many players they have brought up over the years . Not on the list for some reason are 2 of the more successful programs the past few years ESM and Mt. Sinai both of which consistently bring up middle school players .
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Re: High School Lax Girls
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Northport has had numerous girls pulled up over the years. Fortunato and Gilroy are 2 of many. The girls lax world is a small one. You end up knowing most all of the top girls in an age group across all LI clubs rather quickly. Of all the girls I know being brought up from 7-8, they are mostly all deserving. There are also some deserving girls who will not be brought up because their districts just don't do that. Every year LI produces a small group of girls who are the household names of NCAA women's lacrosse. Know what most of them have in common? they were also brought up early. Will every girl brought up pan out? NO, Will girls not brought up never become the next Fortunato or Gilroy? NO to that as well. Be happy for the girls and move on, these girls will have a 5-6 year varsity career, if your [lacrosse] bent on hating, you have a long road ahead.
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Re: High School Lax Girls
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Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 57
Back of THE CAGE
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Back of THE CAGE
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 57 |
Northport has had numerous girls pulled up over the years. Fortunato and Gilroy are 2 of many. It's funny that you bring up Northport, If you look at the list, with all the pull ups that you say they have they are one of the least successful programs on the list You really are pathetic , someone lists a few of the most successful programs and that's what you have to say . So you know SWR has many players they have brought up over the years . Not on the list for some reason are 2 of the more successful programs the past few years ESM and Mt. Sinai both of which consistently bring up middle school players . I also didn't mention CSH, Sayville, Wantaugh or North Shore for the same reason, their history is relatively short at this point but you didn't mention them why, is it because your knowledge of lacrosse stops at 110, I said I wasn't sure about SWR but I'm willing to bet the at the time they had there run the need for M.S. players was much less than it is today. The point of the post is to show how the traditionally strong programs have little need to bring up MS players because the programs are strong from youth through high school. GC, FDale, and 'set rarely, if ever bring up MS players, or even start freshman because they don't have to, and they all had, and still have excellent players that waited there turn and didn't cry about it. As far as Mt. S and ESM go lets see if they can consistently win over a number of years with MS girls being brought up, if they do I will be the first to stand up and say you were right
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Re: High School Lax Girls
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Why are you so [lacrosse] bent on having an 7th or 8 th grader play on varsity? What's the appeal?
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Re: High School Lax Girls
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Huntington finally got it right this year. Politics from last year seemed to have resonated with the school because they don't seem to be allowing a parent dictated program. Time will tell if they can keep the lunatic fringe parents out of decision making.
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Re: High School Lax Girls
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Huntington finally got it right this year and don't seem to be allowing a parent dictated program.
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Re: High School Lax Girls
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Northport has had numerous girls pulled up over the years. Fortunato and Gilroy are 2 of many. It's funny that you bring up Northport, If you look at the list, with all the pull ups that you say they have they are one of the least successful programs on the list You really are pathetic , someone lists a few of the most successful programs and that's what you have to say . So you know SWR has many players they have brought up over the years . Not on the list for some reason are 2 of the more successful programs the past few years ESM and Mt. Sinai both of which consistently bring up middle school players . I also didn't mention CSH, Sayville, Wantaugh or North Shore for the same reason, their history is relatively short at this point but you didn't mention them why, is it because your knowledge of lacrosse stops at 110, I said I wasn't sure about SWR but I'm willing to bet the at the time they had there run the need for M.S. players was much less than it is today. The point of the post is to show how the traditionally strong programs have little need to bring up MS players because the programs are strong from youth through high school. GC, FDale, and 'set rarely, if ever bring up MS players, or even start freshman because they don't have to, and they all had, and still have excellent players that waited there turn and didn't cry about it. As far as Mt. S and ESM go lets see if they can consistently win over a number of years with MS girls being brought up, if they do I will be the first to stand up and say you were right ESM decided that starting this year, no more middle school girls will be brought up. They realized the disaster from last year was not worth the trouble.
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Re: High School Lax Girls
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I am curious has past history of towns bringing up 7 & 8 graders to Varsity ever won anything? Yes , all three state championship teams from last year have a history of moving middle school players up to the varsity. Good Coaches: - know how to earn the respect of their players. - know how to identify talent. - know how to develop talent. - know how to utilize talent. - know how to encourage. - know how to build confidence. - know how to lead. - know how to teach. - know how to create and maintain team enthusiasm. - know how to help kids develop character. - know how to motivate. - know how to build comradery. - know how to create a positive environment. - know how to get the most of of their players. - know how to build a team. - know how to do the right thing. - know how to learn from mistakes. - know how to make adjustments. - know how to lose. - know how to coach. - know how to win. A bad coach will not know how to do any of the above. Poor coaching and leadership are difficult things for athletes to overcome. In most cases it takes a strong leader and a good coach to win a championship even when they have talented athletes. Success (in HS sports) should not always be measured in wins and losses. A bad coach will create division and destroy the moral of a team. They may win games and maybe even win a championship but they will never be successful. How is your coach? You contradict yourself. In your list you say know how to win, then you go on to say a bad coach can't do any of these, then you say at the end of your post that a bad coach may even win a championship. Which is it? Just anither armchair quaterback (armchair coach in this case). I am sure you are an expert. Read some of Coach John Wooden's books then get back to us on how to be a good coach. It's much deeper than that. No contradiction, was implying: know how to win and lose "gracefully". I was not speaking about "winning a game". No armchair coaching here, and I was not writing a book. Just a quick 30 second rundown of some of the things a good HS coach knows how to do. You come off as bitter about something. Or maybe you are a self conscious coach who thinks that I am writing about you. Maybe you are one of the coaches who does not know how to do any of the above. None of the above, a coach though. And I laugh at jack offs such as yourself who this they can sum up coaching in a few lines. Like I said go read a Wooden book rather than copy and paste some list.
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Re: High School Lax Girls
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What disaster?? Winning States??
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Re: High School Lax Girls
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I am curious has past history of towns bringing up 7 & 8 graders to Varsity ever won anything? Yes , all three state championship teams from last year have a history of moving middle school players up to the varsity. Good Coaches: - know how to earn the respect of their players. - know how to identify talent. - know how to develop talent. - know how to utilize talent. - know how to encourage. - know how to build confidence. - know how to lead. - know how to teach. - know how to create and maintain team enthusiasm. - know how to help kids develop character. - know how to motivate. - know how to build comradery. - know how to create a positive environment. - know how to get the most of of their players. - know how to build a team. - know how to do the right thing. - know how to learn from mistakes. - know how to make adjustments. - know how to lose. - know how to coach. - know how to win. A bad coach will not know how to do any of the above. Poor coaching and leadership are difficult things for athletes to overcome. In most cases it takes a strong leader and a good coach to win a championship even when they have talented athletes. Success (in HS sports) should not always be measured in wins and losses. A bad coach will create division and destroy the moral of a team. They may win games and maybe even win a championship but they will never be successful. How is your coach? You contradict yourself. In your list you say know how to win, then you go on to say a bad coach can't do any of these, then you say at the end of your post that a bad coach may even win a championship. Which is it? Just anither armchair quaterback (armchair coach in this case). I am sure you are an expert. Read some of Coach John Wooden's books then get back to us on how to be a good coach. It's much deeper than that. No contradiction, was implying: know how to win and lose "gracefully". I was not speaking about "winning a game". No armchair coaching here, and I was not writing a book. Just a quick 30 second rundown of some of the things a good HS coach knows how to do. You come off as bitter about something. Or maybe you are a self conscious coach who thinks that I am writing about you. Maybe you are one of the coaches who does not know how to do any of the above. None of the above, a coach though. And I laugh at jack offs such as yourself who this they can sum up coaching in a few lines. Like I said go read a Wooden book rather than copy and paste some list. Wow, very angry bitter. Nobody tried to sum up anything. Just a quick list of some of the things a good coach will know how to do. I would suggest that you go back to reading your books but the fact that you have difficulty grasping the gist of a simple post tells me that you have no chance of comprehending, retaining or applying any of the information contained in the books that you claim to have read.
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Re: High School Lax Girls
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Or you can be in the right place at the right time have a daughter who plays for CR on YJ and be a copy cat coach with no real knowledge or experience other then what you see them do during practices and not really comprehend anything on why it's done that way , But have your own opinion and run with it while people buy into what you sell.
Yea you know that A HOLE coach that took the bull by the horns because everyone else just sits around and complains so his head swelled up when he learned people are guliabe and felt he is far beyond knowledge then any coach on the island , you know the one that everyone hates but puts on that happy face around him because they have to put up with it or be singled out.
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Re: High School Lax Girls
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Or you can be in the right place at the right time have a daughter who plays for CR on YJ and be a copy cat coach with no real knowledge or experience other then what you see them do during practices and not really comprehend anything on why it's done that way , But have your own opinion and run with it while people buy into what you sell.
Yea you know that A HOLE coach that took the bull by the horns because everyone else just sits around and complains so his head swelled up when he learned people are guliabe and felt he is far beyond knowledge then any coach on the island , you know the one that everyone hates but puts on that happy face around him because they have to put up with it or be singled out.
Who and what are you talking about
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What disaster?? Winning States??
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What disaster?? Winning States?? I guess the result wasn't worth the headache to the board and AD.
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What disaster?? Winning States?? I guess the result wasn't worth the headache to the board and AD. That is exactly why these players will be denied the opportunity that many have gotten in the past because its not about what best for the program or any individual kid but what will be the easy for the administration.
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What disaster?? Winning States?? I guess the result wasn't worth the headache to the board and AD. Typical, rather than address the situation and come up with a policy that is fair, the AD took the easy way out. Maybe he is spending to much time fighting of discrimination accusations and suits from Female Phys Ed teachers (3 of them, FOIL it) to put work in on a thoughtful policy. This would of never happened if the Coach was a male coach.
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Re: High School Lax Girls
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What disaster?? Winning States?? I guess the result wasn't worth the headache to the board and AD. That is exactly why these players will be denied the opportunity that many have gotten in the past because its not about what best for the program or any individual kid but what will be the easy for the administration. It NEVER should be about what's best for any individual kid (or select group of kids). It's should be about the district, the program and the team. In that order.
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Re: High School Lax Girls
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What disaster?? Winning States?? I guess the result wasn't worth the headache to the board and AD. That is exactly why these players will be denied the opportunity that many have gotten in the past because its not about what best for the program or any individual kid but what will be the easy for the administration. It NEVER should be about what's best for any individual kid (or select group of kids). It's should be about the district, the program and the team. In that order. That's the exact attitude of all the parents who have a kid that is mediocre. Each kid should play at a level that is best for their development. With your logic they should not have AP classes etc because it wastes resources on only a certain select group. At some point you have to stop with the wait your turn and make decisions based on ability and let each kid be placed at a level that is best for their development.Enough with the politically correct "every kid should get their turn to play varsity" .
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Re: High School Lax Girls
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What disaster?? Winning States?? I guess the result wasn't worth the headache to the board and AD. That is exactly why these players will be denied the opportunity that many have gotten in the past because its not about what best for the program or any individual kid but what will be the easy for the administration. It NEVER should be about what's best for any individual kid (or select group of kids). It's should be about the district, the program and the team. In that order. That's the exact attitude of all the parents who have a kid that is mediocre. Each kid should play at a level that is best for their development. With your logic they should not have AP classes etc because it wastes resources on only a certain select group. At some point you have to stop with the wait your turn and make decisions based on ability and let each kid be placed at a level that is best for their development.Enough with the politically correct "every kid should get their turn to play varsity" . You sure have a chip on your shoulder. I never said the best kids shouldn't play. that's all subjective but let's not get into that now. A high school team is no different than a college team than a professional team. Decisions have to be made for the good of the organization (district) first and the team next. Just as no professional team should be run around one individual (ask the Knicks - that hasn't worked out so well for them, has it?), no high school team should be run solely around one girl or one select group of girls. And by the way, my "mediocre" kid is getting substantial athletic money (academic money too) from a top 40 school (No, not a top 20 school but that was by design as she wants to play not potentially watch and hope to play).
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Re: High School Lax Girls
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What disaster?? Winning States?? I guess the result wasn't worth the headache to the board and AD. That is exactly why these players will be denied the opportunity that many have gotten in the past because its not about what best for the program or any individual kid but what will be the easy for the administration. It NEVER should be about what's best for any individual kid (or select group of kids). It's should be about the district, the program and the team. In that order. That's the exact attitude of all the parents who have a kid that is mediocre. Each kid should play at a level that is best for their development. With your logic they should not have AP classes etc because it wastes resources on only a certain select group. At some point you have to stop with the wait your turn and make decisions based on ability and let each kid be placed at a level that is best for their development.Enough with the politically correct "every kid should get their turn to play varsity" . Agree!!!! The person who is saying for the "good of the district" has no idea what they are talking about. The district provided experiences to students to enrich them. If a kids is playing below their level is it enriching? What you really mean is for the good of the district means. The good of the loud mouths at the board meeting who think their kids failure to accomplish something whether it be pass an honors class, get into select chorus, make the exceptional gifted and talented programs (music or academics), is someone else fault because they are too good. Shut up and go to a Bernie Sanders rally. I'm not bitter I'm sick of the welfare attitude infesting everything and everyone.
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Re: High School Lax Girls
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What disaster?? Winning States?? I guess the result wasn't worth the headache to the board and AD. That is exactly why these players will be denied the opportunity that many have gotten in the past because its not about what best for the program or any individual kid but what will be the easy for the administration. It NEVER should be about what's best for any individual kid (or select group of kids). It's should be about the district, the program and the team. In that order. That's the exact attitude of all the parents who have a kid that is mediocre. Each kid should play at a level that is best for their development. With your logic they should not have AP classes etc because it wastes resources on only a certain select group. At some point you have to stop with the wait your turn and make decisions based on ability and let each kid be placed at a level that is best for their development.Enough with the politically correct "every kid should get their turn to play varsity" . Don't worry, Chief, your kid's D1 full ride will still be there even if she plays varsity as a sophomore. It must be hard for her to play with mediocre players... poor thing.
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Who says she's going to play at the top 40 school? Its all subjective
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What disaster?? Winning States?? I guess the result wasn't worth the headache to the board and AD. That is exactly why these players will be denied the opportunity that many have gotten in the past because its not about what best for the program or any individual kid but what will be the easy for the administration. It NEVER should be about what's best for any individual kid (or select group of kids). It's should be about the district, the program and the team. In that order. That's the exact attitude of all the parents who have a kid that is mediocre. Each kid should play at a level that is best for their development. With your logic they should not have AP classes etc because it wastes resources on only a certain select group. At some point you have to stop with the wait your turn and make decisions based on ability and let each kid be placed at a level that is best for their development.Enough with the politically correct "every kid should get their turn to play varsity" . You sure have a chip on your shoulder. I never said the best kids shouldn't play. that's all subjective but let's not get into that now. A high school team is no different than a college team than a professional team. Decisions have to be made for the good of the organization (district) first and the team next. Just as no professional team should be run around one individual (ask the Knicks - that hasn't worked out so well for them, has it?), no high school team should be run solely around one girl or one select group of girls. And by the way, my "mediocre" kid is getting substantial athletic money (academic money too) from a top 40 school (No, not a top 20 school but that was by design as she wants to play not potentially watch and hope to play). First off a high school team should be run considerably different from a college team ,and a pro team is a whole other story. Your by design statement is just ridiculous, how do you know the team will not be a top 10 team by the time your kid goes there, what makes you think your kid is guaranteed playing time at any school. That said at the high school level what is best for each kid as an individual has to be taken into account .If a kid is talented enough and it is in the best interest of that kid to play varsity then it should not be that kids problem that other kids ego or their parents ego may get hurt.
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Re: High School Lax Girls
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Sounds like someone is seething that dear daughter did not make the HS team. better get your pen and paper out and start writing your letters to the BOE and the AD. That will get her moved up in proper order. It worked last year, why not give it the old college try and push yourself on the team again this year.
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Re: High School Lax Girls
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Anonymous
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Pulling up middle school kids did not help Huntington the past couple of years to win States or anything else. Maybe this year will be different because we have coaches who will know how to utilize ALL the talent on their bench, not just the same rotation of players.
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Re: High School Lax Girls
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Anonymous
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Okay - you're right. I'm wrong. About everything. Your kid, my kid, your school, college, the presidential election and the state of the world in general. Feel better? 
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Re: High School Lax Girls
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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What disaster?? Winning States?? I guess the result wasn't worth the headache to the board and AD. That is exactly why these players will be denied the opportunity that many have gotten in the past because its not about what best for the program or any individual kid but what will be the easy for the administration. It NEVER should be about what's best for any individual kid (or select group of kids). It's should be about the district, the program and the team. In that order. That's the exact attitude of all the parents who have a kid that is mediocre. Each kid should play at a level that is best for their development. With your logic they should not have AP classes etc because it wastes resources on only a certain select group. At some point you have to stop with the wait your turn and make decisions based on ability and let each kid be placed at a level that is best for their development.Enough with the politically correct "every kid should get their turn to play varsity" . Agree!!!! The person who is saying for the "good of the district" has no idea what they are talking about. The district provided experiences to students to enrich them. If a kids is playing below their level is it enriching? What you really mean is for the good of the district means. The good of the loud mouths at the board meeting who think their kids failure to accomplish something whether it be pass an honors class, get into select chorus, make the exceptional gifted and talented programs (music or academics), is someone else fault because they are too good. Shut up and go to a Bernie Sanders rally. I'm not bitter I'm sick of the welfare attitude infesting everything and everyone. Ahh there it is the new me first lacrosse mentality. I hate that people like you are ruining our sport
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Re: High School Lax Girls
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Sounds like someone is seething that dear daughter did not make the HS team. better get your pen and paper out and start writing your letters to the BOE and the AD. That will get her moved up in proper order. It worked last year, why not give it the old college try and push yourself on the team again this year. You got it backwards. Last year when the Esm older kids lost playing time to the move UPS, it was the parents of the older kids who took to writing, complaining, throwing teammates, coaches, AD, board member and anyone else under the bus. Got very ugly on here last year. ESM has too many players and all the parents think their kid is great, especially the group that is chocking out middle school and JV right now looking to get to varsity. I do feel bad because I know some decent players that will never see the field and may end up leaving the sport. Its nice to have a strong youth program but when it has to narrow down for school it becomes cut throat and toxic.
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Re: High School Lax Girls
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Anonymous
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Very well said. It's the same in our district as well.
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