BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums NORTHEAST LACROSSE BOTC MAIN FORUM (LI, CT, WC) WSYL NEW RULES

Igloo is not going to walk out on their shot, no way.

I would speculate that considering neither team owner –

1. ...is part of the NLF lobby (which has major connections with the MLL League founder who also happens to have started WYSL)
2. ...feels the need to change the rules in order to knock down better teams in 2021
3. ...has the sick ambition to control the travel lacrosse world by whatever means possible – the way the NLF teams do.
4. ...has the greed to grab more money from families
5. ...is willing to cut kids from a team created in August because it's unethical and unfair to those who already made the roster
6. ...thinks it's about them before the kids
7. ...believes their organization is the be all and end all of youth lacrosse the way NLF teams walk around with a holier than thou attitude.
8. ...and most lacrosse programs from around the country believes WYSL did the right thing.

...It makes plenty of sense if they do not attend the regionals!

Wanna bet....

Yea, sometimes character trumps greed. Hats off to Black Ice, doing thing the right way!

We all hope Black Ice plays and I bet they will. They are still the team to beat. All Black Ice kids are legal age but most were born before May 1, 2003 so only about two or thee kids from that team will be able to play next year with the 2022 group. This year will be the only chance for those kids born before May 1, 2003 to play as they will be too old next year. Doubtful the director will deprive kids the opportunity to play in this event. Also many people think black ice is the best only because they are older. It has been argued that Black Ice with an older Roster when playing 2021 teams on average is usually six months older than other 2021 teams and that is why they win. Now they will play kids thier own age or kids six months older than them. The fact that they won't have an age advantage will not keep them out of this event. In fact not having an age advantage is more reason to play. This is a chance to prove they are they best because they are the most talented and not only because they are older. They won't pass up this chance to play and prove they are the best.

Or..... If Black Ice is as good as they claim why not challenge their boys playing 1/2 up. This team has claimed to be so great but rarely plays up seems like they like the big fish in a small pond

Cross posted from 2021

Why all the hate? This is a 13U event with the birthday cutoff of 5/1. Most sports with a "good" governing body have age group based on birthdays. Soccer is birth year. But soccer is international where things like the U.S. version of grades may not translate.

If lacrosse wants to grow from its current small foot print, a strong USL, with rules instead of guidelines, is needed. Who knows, a military base in Europe may field a local team in the future with a mix of local kids. Grades may not exactly translate, but he age cutoff does.

I know why people are upset, because it is perceived that the Crush coach has had some influence on the changes in the rules tot he WSYL in the last few months. Maybe he had nothing to do with it, BUT if the "younger" Crush kids now play with the 2021 91 team, it will probably make the 2021 91 team better. Thus, they may end up on TV again. I would say without the addition of those players it is MORE likely that Igloo will appear on TV. I would bet money of the fact that the Crush coach also coaches MLL and this is an event run with a strong MLL connection, it is not out of the realm of possibility that this indeed did take place. Also, why the change mid year? IF the organizers wanted to change to just age (and not year 2021 teams) then that should have happened from the start. I agree, it looks a little fishy to me... And, I will say what I have said before, if this event is supposed to be run like the LLWS, then these rule changes should not be happening at all.

Agreed. That's what we all want and ultimately it will be for the better. But there's a reason for the backlash.

The fact remains that the rules were already set for this year. Did you overlook that or did not know? There was absolutely no reason to change rules eight weeks prior to qualifiers except to benefit larger entrenched orgs that can pull from the eighth grade class, and diminish the mid-size or rising organizations.

Tell us why WYSL couldn't just wait until after this year's tourney was over to modify the rules once and for all. It gave a huge impression that the decision was underhanded and the rules can be changed 'at will' in the future. It was here on BOTC that a leak was made and targeted toward a certain organization just prior to the rule change, that 'a big change was coming'. It's true you can't believe most things on an anonymous forum, but at a minimum it shows that at least one organization was 'in the know' and most likely influenced the process.

Did they really have to push the date of birth up 30 days this year? Did they really have to take grade out of the equation after most teams selected the players from the class of 2021 back in Aug-Nov?

Could those points not have waited one more season? Finally, tell us why all of a sudden the players no longer have to play with the team year round, BUT only in two tourneys, qualifier included.

All the new rules are fine...WYSL should have just waited until this summer to implement them for 2017, because the rules for 2016 were already established. That would be the right thing to do. Meanwhile, influencers and those in charge have their mouths shut because they know three years from now this year's event will be forgotten and swept under the rug.

Oh, and I do not have any skin in this year's game.

I'm not connected to LI, but I am the HC of a 9/1 compliant 2021 team not considering WSYL. My observations.

(1) Lacrosse competition should be about skill, not age. When you have 5/1 or 6/1 cutoffs or have 2021 teams loaded with older kids, it becomes in large part about age and how many older kids you have. This is never as prominent as when they are 13 and some players are pre-puberty kids and some look like grown men. Many top 2021 teams from metro areas have 5-8 pre 9/1 kids.

(2) I disagree with the 5/1 cutoff . I disagree with [lacrosse]'s moving from 8/1 to 6/1. But I get it, given how many people "hold back" boys with Summer birthdays, at least in the private school world. Still, I believe an 8/1 cutoff is the right one.

(3) The fact WSYL moving away from requiring kids to be 7th graders in the prior school year and a true part of a team to current standards looks nakedly political. Kudos to Igloo if they call BS and stay away. It's a TV event. Why should they fly all the way to Denver to attend a tournament that changes the rules to suit their competition? Kudos if they decide to go too, but what WSYL did is BS.

So if these rules were in effect last year does crush lose to crabs lie they did previously?

wah, wah, mommy

The age cut off is what got the crabs in a Running Time sort of way grade did not because they were 14/15 year old 7th graders. Good job mom and dad

The question should be whether a Maryland coach would have put together an all-star squad and played in the qualifier and then one other tournament, before going to WSYL.

The player's normal club team might not have liked it, but could been done without too much conflict and I would think 10-15 practices would have been plenty for a high-lax IQ bunch of all-stars to learn to play as a team.

What I was implying was all that crying by a certain organization last year, and they turn around and do the same this year with a little more too. Hmmmmm

Igloo has been playing with older kids for years so they can't cry foul now. They should play older kids in this tournament just like 2021 teams have been playing them for years despite Igloo being older. Personally I still think Igloo will win this even with the change in age. At this level it is hard to add kids to an existing roster and play complicated defenses and offenses. Teams that add older kids will have a simplified game plan and a team like Igloo will take advantage of that. If Igloo is concerned about reputation backing out will be the worst thing for them. Igloo should play and they should still win it all. Problem is that they have played younger teams for so long they don't now how they will do against kids of similar age. That is why they are backing out not because they are mad about the rule change. If they thought they could win they would play despite ANY rule change. Having said that if another team wins it will be tainted if Igloo is not there.

I know igloo is not the only 2021 team with "Older Kids" know quit a few but being they have been so successful of course they are THE ONLY ONE's DOING IT ! FOR SURE THEY ARE! Anything to discount there success

Ok, who else has older kids? Did any other team have 2020s on a 2021 team?

Interesting analysis on Igloo. Igloo will be at the qualifier. Let's move on to something else. What is Express doing?

Ask any igloo parent about the age of black ice and they will tell you most of the kids are born before May 1 2003 and they have many 2002 to February 2003 kids. In fact a major complaint about the rule change that keeps being repeated by black ice parents is that almost all these kids will be too old to play next year. There is nothing wrong with having an older legal team but it does make them an older team as far as average age of 2021 teams. Now they have a chance to play teams that are similar age to them. Some of these teams they will be playing will have the same age advantage that igloo has when they play other 2021 teams. No one is discounting the success of the team but if they don't do well against similar age teams then of course people will be saying they are the best because they are older. Let them play and see how they do. They have been together a long time. It is doubtful a team just recently put together will beat them even if older.

Express will be at the qualifier. The big question is will they be taking 2020 kids? Does anyone know?

Express is taking 2020 kids.

EXPRESS 2021 for a Fact

Hey Fact, no 2020 kids? You sure? No point in making false statements. That goes for all teams. At this point we all know each other and what grades kids are in.

Well then you must not know your kids to well cause its a FACT

K, sorry. Misread your post initially. Not from Express......We all know most teams will take 2020 kids to wsyl. This is unfortunate and is disrupting many teams and organizations. I will say though that the majority difference makers on 2020 teams are older then the 5/1/02 cutoff. Legit 2021 players and teams will do fine.

yeah cause most of the 2020 difference makers have 2001 or 1st qtr 2002 birthdates. Except for maybe the best one out of them.

No for two reasons:
1) Crush was VERY well prepared for this tourney
2) The crush did that to the Crabs and the Crabs still had quite a few holdbacks during the tourney.

Maybe 91 knew before the others to get it in gear for early July, but now everyone knew this seasons tournament was coming. Playing field is more level this year.

Just the opposite. Playing field is heavily skewed towards the teams that engineered the rules changes . . . . the larger programs that can pull more of their older kids from their 2020 teams to play down. Sad how they pushed through the rule changes and kept silent on this until the competing teams were selected.

I just heard that Crabs 2021 isn't even trying for the WSYL this year because they can't field a competitive team that meets the age cutoff. HAHA!

how do you play down in an age based tourney?

This is what is still on the WSYL site

"All players must be born on or after 5/1/2002. Each player will be required to submit a copy of their birth certificate."

I am sure it will only move by 1 year for the next tournament. I think this is an entirely fair cutoff. It allows the kids who were not well adjusted enough to start kindergarten to stay on grade while keeping the kids trying to totally work the system to be kicked out to try again next year.

WSYL knows what they are doing with at 5/1 grade cutoff.

It was originally marketed as 2021 , just how last year it was 2020. but Eventually like any good business you have growing pains. And until they get everyone on the same page this is what you got. It's a pay to play. If you don't want to play don't pay.

The one change that I think is a shame is being able to take a tournament team and not have to bring your team that is on the roster from try outs. The beauty of it last year was that for most of the teams that went, these were the kids that had been playing and practicing together all year, possibly more. The team was united and each win or loss was handled well as these kids were true teammates, not just a tournament team required to play two tournaments together. I personally think the age cut off is a bit too wide and a 7/1 is better. There were kids turning 14 during the tourney while some were just turning 13 or not going to turn 13 for another month or two. That said- it was an incredible experience and worth the trip. I hope it is just as exciting for this year's teams.

but if it was 7/1 then someones son would be ineligible and miss a second trip to Denver. Not an option! That date was not arbitrary by any means, it was to accommodate certain individuals.

Kids that play up do not need this extended cut off, they would make the cut off without an extension- certain individuals would still make the tournament guidelines without any extensions at all. This was to accommodate all the late starters in MD and other states that follow the trend of pre first. This change was not made to accommodate any one kid and the conspiracy theories are really a bit over the top.

In theory you may have a point, unless of course a kid is a holdback and will be turning 13 right after the cutoff date, hmmm?

Yeah and.......some kids who will play in this tournament will be turning 14 right after the cutoff date. Not sure you still have a point.