BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums MID-ATLANTIC LACROSSE MARYLAND FORUM Greater Howard Club Lacrosse Conference (HoCo)

Where is it at?

Yes, OK We cheat: we game the club system with holdbacks, our 19 and 20 year olds will matriculate to the Ivy's, they will graduate and use the lax bro network to get jobs on Wall Street, make their millions and retire to the Gold Coast of LI, and follow the same route with their sons. OK? Satified, now can we discuss something else?

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Most be a Looneys parent jealous [/quote

Why would a Looney's parent be jealous? Crabs and FCA, two of the biggest violators of holdbacks in grade base youth lacrosse and just all around cheaters, mixing teams to suit People just get over the hold back thing for crying out loud! HoCo created the Holdback Division for the 2020's so those teams could all compete against each other. Every single team in that division has them. Accept it. Move on.

Crabs, FCA, Looney's, Team 91, Hawks, Rising Sons - they all have hold backs. That's why they are in the Elite Holdback Division! The good news is now the teams in the AA division, or legit age for the grade division, can't point at the hold back issue as a reason for teams winning or losing.

You are completely wrong and clearly show you have no idea what you are talking about. Not even close, I believe they have two. Crabs 2020 has at least 10 and FCA Blue around 6. Crabs is just a cesspool of an organization and FCA tries to hide behind Christianity, which they demonstrate they are anything but.

Yes, OK We cheat: we game the club system with holdbacks, our 19 and 20 year olds will matriculate to the Ivy's, they will graduate and use the lax bro network to get jobs on Wall Street, make their millions and retire to the Gold Coast of LI, and follow the same route with their sons. OK? Satified, now can we discuss something else?

FCA has 3 one on defense, one on attack, and a goalie so your argument is invalid

Yes, OK We cheat: we game the club system with holdbacks, our 19 and 20 year olds will matriculate to the Ivy's, they will graduate and use the lax bro network to get jobs on Wall Street, make their millions and retire to the Gold Coast of LI, and follow the same route with their sons. OK? Satified, now can we discuss something else?

Yes, I think that settles it....now let's move on from all of this holdback nonsense.

In your dream

I do not believe anyone is saying none of these teams in this new division has no holdbacks, all of them do to an extent but not to the extent of Crabs. Their 2020 team is very close to a 2019 team, they clearly violate the spirit of grade base lacrosse and this is the business model of Ryan McClernan. If you are at all familiar with this age group/teams you know Crabs is the most disliked and disrespected team in youth lacrosse. Not because of their record (wins/loses) but because of how the "game" the system. There is a two year age limit in the new US Lacrosse guidelines for grade base, using the oldest player on the roster. Using this new model Crabs would have around 3 or 4 that would not be eligible. 2020 grade base is using U15 and this is where Crabs would and should lose players. 2020 teams should have a roster of 13 and 14 year olds, not 15 year olds or older 14's turning 15 sometime during the spring season.

We cheat, we cheat, we cheat:

Yes, OK We cheat: we game the club system with holdbacks, our 19 and 20 year olds will matriculate to the Ivy's, they will graduate and use the lax bro network to get jobs on Wall Street, make their millions and retire to the Gold Coast of LI, and follow the same route with their sons. OK? Satified, now can we discuss something else?

FCA had at least 2 that I am aware of before the 2019 kids came down. I'm sure their were more than two though, I don't know every kid on the team.

We cheat, we cheat, we cheat:

Yes, OK We cheat: we game the club system with holdbacks, our 19 and 20 year olds will matriculate to the Ivy's, they will graduate and use the lax bro network to get jobs on Wall Street, make their millions and retire to the Gold Coast of LI, and follow the same route with their sons. OK? Satified, now can we discuss something else?

Very wrong. Two of those teams have a large number of holdbacks. Stop making excuses for why you are not in the bracket.

7 months and 2 days....

And will work for Goldman and donate $$$$$ to Hillary and she will ensure that rules will change so that there will be no more holdbacks....and every kid will get a trophy too.

Hey dad, your break is over. You know the employee rules, Walmart greeters are only allowed one 10 break per day. Now get off the computer and get back to work, there are customers coming in the store.

And will work for Goldman and donate $$$$$ to Hillary and she will ensure that rules will change so that there will be no more holdbacks....and every kid will get a trophy too.

are you the FCA coach who belittled the kids during indoor this past season, turning his back on the kids and telling them he can't even look at them? Or, are you just another FCA parent who allows another person to treat your son like garbage?

I wondered why FCA white had such issues from parents with commitment to the team, but after witnessing the coach during indoor, I fully understand why!

Ok - so what? That team absolutely has more holdbacks than any other 2020 team. RM is a DB and he games the system. We know that all teams in the Elite Holdback Division have holdbacks. Let them all play each other and have at it. If they all have them and they are in the same division then why does it matter? How does this effect you? If you say the team your kid plays on is in the Elite Holdback Division - well then he's playing on a team that does the exact same thing as RM - so how is that any better?

If he's on a team that is in the AA, legit-age-grade division then he won't have to play the Crabs so you aren't effected by it. This is actually a better situation than any of the summer tournaments where they mix the hold back teams and the legit-age-grade teams so they play each other. That's when it becomes unfair and dangerous.

So your argument is that 2 teams have a large number of holdbacks but the other teams only have a small number? And that makes it unfair? Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black?

Yes that's what I said 2 were summer birthdays and one they just got is a defender that was held back for grades

Whahhhhhhhh

Who are the teams already in the Elite 2020 division?

Who are the teams playing off to get in?

How does the playoff work in terms of how many more teams get added?

[lacrosse] many total? 5...6? or more!

yes

You got it. Just because holdbacks are on all teams, most with only a few but Crabs with at least 8+, that does make it unfair. The spirit of grade base lacrosse was started not for holdbacks but Crabs and RM, their leader, took it to a whole new level, creating a 2020 team with a sh*tload of holdbacks and even has two double holdbacks. This team has mostly older players and this could present a dangerous situation with players either 15 or very close to 15 playing teams with mostly 13 and young 14 year olds. This is clearly unfair, in the way Crabs violates the true spirit of grade base youth lacrosse. It is how they operate and have for the past few years. I don't know if you have ever seen their 2020 team, I have several times and you can clearly see these players are much older and bigger. Just because most teams have a few and Crabs has a boatload is not the pot calling the kettle black.

The point is that most if not all of the AAs -elite or not- have a combination of hold backs and summer birthdays. If a 2020 is not born between 9/1/2001 and 8/31/2002 they are considered not age appropriate 2020s regardless of when they were born or the story behind it. If teams feel they do not have ANY of those, then post your rosters on your website but the majority do so nobody can claim the elite bracket is the hold back bracket. Some teams in the bracket (Crabs and FCA) do have many more than what just happens naturally. Crabs obviously being the king and encourages it. But there are fantastic teams in that elite bracket that have the same number as teams in the regular AA and even the A bracket so just because you are not in AA do not paint the teams who are as laden with holdbacks. In this mess, no team is innocent and it is a matter of degrees but if they were to switch to MD state age guidelines, every team would lose kids.

No, not all teams do what Crabs/RM does. They do not build a team of mostly holdbacks like they do. Most teams, if we had access to dates of birth would probably reveal 2 or 3 per team, not 8+ lie on the Crabs roster. Plus it has been mentioned many times that they have two double holdbacks on the 2020 team. If a 2019 team was introduced into this division everyone would be up in arms, yet here come Crabs with a 2020 team that is very close to a 2019 team and you are saying so what? You mentioned dangerous in mixing AA and holdback teams, and I agree. But there is a dangerous situation in the 2020 Elite group with Crabs present. This team has so many holdbacks and you have older 14 and perhaps some 15 year olds playing against mostly 13 and young 14 year olds. That doesn't lend itself to fair play and it could lead to some serious injuries based merely on the size of these older players. The true meaning and spirit of grade base was not to violate it like Crabs does but RM saw a way to make his teams stronger simply by having much older players. Talk to some of the parents who had kids playing for Crabs and were told the only way they could remain with the team is to repeat a year and be a holdback. This is fact, not fiction, it is well known in the lacrosse community, not just in Md. but throughout lacrosse. Their reputation and how they operate is well known.

My son is on a 2020 team with not as many holdbacks. He'll be 14 soon. He's pumped to play the crabs and other top teams this spring. He wants to play varsity lacrosse next year. He's not huge so he's got to learn to play with bigger and older players. There is some unfairness with grade based lacrosse to the kids who are born later. Would be the same with single year age -- ie 9/1/01 birthday and 8/31/02 birthday. And definitely a 2 yr u15 age bracket 9/1/00 to 8/31/02. To me if your kid is in 8th grade, is passionate about the game, has goals to be a impact player in HS and perhaps play in college - it's time stop worrying about the ages of his competitors and teammates. IMO those who are obsessed about this suffer from the same affliction as those who would have their kid repeat a grade for lax -- a desire to control their kids athletic endeavors. Let the kids play and enjoy the game

How do they expect to compete in the AA Elite bracket skipping over AA if they were upset and continually bring up the loss to a team with all on age players in a 2020 A tournament? It is common for clubs to switch players between teams in order to field a team for tournaments -they did not bring in older players and had all players on the roster ahead of time for the tournament.

Highly doubt it is the other AA Elite teams complaining because they, just like most of the AA, are not squeaky clean. The kids that regularly play the Crabs know their story and laugh about it. They walk away knowing that they had a great competitive game with predominantly 2019s- the only ones that keep track of W/L in their bracket seem to be Crabs and Looneys so they can brag on their website but who cares anymore? They can live with themselves and our kids get tough games to fine tune their skills.

Try 3...how do parents from the other teams know how many of the kids are on age or not?

. Main concern is playing a team like Crabs with so many holdbacks/double holdbacks is player safety. For the most part older 14 year olds and close to 15 are much different than playing against other 13/14 year olds. Contrary to your statement, I don't believe anyone is obsessed with holdbacks in general, it is when an organization makes it their business model, player safety comes into play. I'm sure you would not like it if your son was run over by a 6foot 180 lb older 14 year old and it ended his season. Safety is the focus and concern, not holdbacks per se or win/losses.

LOL. Madlax has the most holdbacks, but nobody mentions them. I guess they would if Madlax had better teams.

Good point - one of the Crabs double hold backs was 6'2" and 180 LAST year according to his HUDL profile. I guess Double holdback parents don't care about my kid or yours. The average 8th grader is about 5'7" and 125 wet maybe.

more than three, you had at least two before the kids came down from 2019. 1 middie and 1 attack before the 2019 arrivals.

quite a few of us have kids who played rec ball or been on other clubs with a few of your team.

Not to mention those of us who have been coaches (where we get the entire rec council's info on a spreadsheet) and board members in other sports (basketball, football, etc) where we get entire rec rosters with birthdays, i.e Fallston, Belair, Emmorton. Did you really think that you could hide your kid's age?

If they played rec ball together wouldnt they be the same age?
2 of the 4 that came down from 2019 are true 2020s that played up. They both had summer birthdays

Bunch losers.
Crabs 10
Fca has at least 6.
Looneys has 5
91 has 5
Hawks 3
Rising sons 9