BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums NORTHEAST LACROSSE BOTC MAIN FORUM (LI, CT, WC) Boys 2020-8th Grade Fall 2015 Summer 2016

why does everyone hate them?

Whew, I guess that settles it and makes it ok.

It does make it OK. No one is breaking rules. You just don't agree with the rules.

People are stating things are okay because there are no rules... and that makes it okay.

Please review the definitions of cheat! One does not need to break rules to be a cheater! Although it generally occurs it is not a prerequisite.



Cheating is the getting of a reward for ability by dishonest means or finding an easy way out of an unpleasant situation. It is generally used for the breaking of rules to gain unfair advantage in a competitive situation. .... The rules infringed may be explicit, or they may be from an unwritten code of conduct based on morality, ethics or custom, making the identification of cheating conduct a potentially subjective process. ... A person described as a "cheat" doesn't necessarily cheat all the time, but rather, relies on unfair tactics to the point of acquiring a reputation for it.[2]

Enough already - this has been beaten to death and then some across every thread in the forum. The rules are what they are, and people are going to follow the rules. It's probably not "fair" for a freshman to play against seniors in HS or College lax either, but no one cries about that. This is no different unless the rules actually change.

Maybe in Lacrosse because they claim to be a Town only (with a few exceptions, oops) team and then lie about the "visitors" and the holdbacks and then claim to be the worlds greatest travel/town teams.

Why people hate Manhasset in general is a list that is way too long for this board!

why does everyone hate them equate to not having rivals? Don't the red sox hate their biggest rival, Cardinals hate their biggest rival..so on

Comparing college players to high schoolers and middle schoolers? Funny post, well done!

Enough already - this has been beaten to death and then some across every thread in the forum. The rules are what they are, and people are going to follow the rules. It's probably not "fair" for a freshman to play against seniors in HS or College lax either, but
no one cries about that. This is no different unless the rules actually change. [/quote]

Horrible analogy, is freshman plays against senior it's because he is good enough to do so! However, 15 or 16 years olds playing against 14 year olds in clubs lax is not! These teams are not school teams and shouldn't be treated as they are!

Playing up is not an issue, however playing down is and it kills the spirit of competition!

No I don't think it has been beaten to death.

I also don't agree with you; I see it fair that freshman play against Sr's. why, because they are identified as such. The objectivity is known; it is Younger vs Older.

When playing in a class/grade based system you no longer have the objective nature which allows you compare things equally. Instead, you are intentionally hiding the objective nature that would make one better then the next. Sure some tournaments identify the DOB - most don't.

Why is it so important for you to compare your 13 year old to someone else's kid? You should be focused on whether your kid is getting better and having a positive experience.

What are holdbacks cheating at? Not college recruiting. The reality is by word or deed the d1 college coaches have endorsed holding boys back and know the boys are older. Bottom line, the coaches and the NCAA set the rules for recruiting and holdbacks are encouraged.

Are holdbacks cheating at youth lacrosse? That answer is subjective given no firm age requirements. If your son is really D1 material if held back it would seem like you should have the decency to play him with his age group/normal grade until he hits high school. The better competition would do him good.

A summer birthday who is average and wants to play with his friends in his grade? I really don't have a problem with that.

Originally club lacrosse was a way to improve for your high school team and maybe to get recruited for college. The emphasis was supposed to be on improving the players with a secondary interest in winning. In that model, players play up rather than down because they are focused on getting better.

The focus now is on the glory and economic benefit of the club. Players will now play with younger kids to the detriment of their own development so that the club can win and the club's parents can claim they have the best 8th grade lacrosse team in their city, state, nation etc.

I haven't and won't holdback my kids because it wouldn't be academically appropriate but I don't have a problem with parents who would make that decision. I only hope that they would insist on playing their son at his normal grade for his benefit rather than let a club director push their son down so the club director can claim more victories.

Youth Sports should not be based on what college D 1 coaches are looking for.

Youth sports are for kids to learn how to compete, work with teammates, win with dignity, and lose with respect. Kids playing club lacrosse at the youth levels, elementary school and middle school should not be playing against older kids.

This whole graduation year based team format should have never come around for youth sports, middle school, or even high school age kids. If college coaches want to come and recruit they can go to any one of the high school teams and start looking at players just as a duo and many other sports

I guess I should have been more clear - I wasn't looking for opinions on whether or not anyone thinks it has been beaten to death (although it has - look through any thread on this forum). Again, until the official rules actually change, you play grade based and get what you get, and your kids get more skilled because they are playing older boys. I completely disagree with holdbacks, but the constant complaining - which affects change not one bit - is ridiculous.

Horrible analogy, is freshman plays against senior it's because he is good enough to do so! However, 15 or 16 years olds playing against 14 year olds in clubs lax is not! These teams are not school teams and shouldn't be treated as they are!

Playing up is not an issue, however playing down is and it kills the spirit of competition![/quote]

OK - so let's go with that logic. Good size 14 year old playing against average sized 15 or 16 year old - definitely a maturity and physical difference, for certain. But, a 15 year old freshman playing with an 18 year old senior - no difference there?

How will it ever change if no one complains? For change to happen it will take an effort from parents against the clubs. Clubs already have too much power. There needs to be a broad consensus among parents for anyone to act. Airing those beliefs here is one small step in building that consensus.

If you want change lobby the insurance company (Bollinger) who cover all the kids through the US Lax membership. Ultimately, lawyers will bring resolution on this issue.

Wow! Lawyers and insurance companies? Lobbying? For what? To change to outcome of some tournament and who gets the T-shirt. It won't change anything with recruiting because that particular holdback will still be graduating and moving on to college in the year he is in school.

If these tournaments don't get insured things will change.

What fall tournaments is Crush 2020 playing in? Thanks.

Express North's "best middie" was born after 6/1/01! He's a legit 2020!

Come on here we go. The best player in 2020 DOB is Spring 2002. No NY team should have a best player in 2020 should be a 2001 player. Go ahead tell me 12/2001 is legit (yeah it is). Don't tell me 9/10/11 if so he is a holdback. Go ahead tell me he may be from Ct, read up on what Ct is doing about those hold backs.

You opened the can of worms... what is the DOB of this fictional player, no need for date how about the month!

Only one I know of is they were invited to play in Terp classic a 2019 event run by University of Maryland Other than that I am not sure

My son who is born in February 2002 is a legit 2020. Any kid born in 2001 should be 2019. Period. End of story.

Just because LI does school that way?? You do realize that 90% of the country bases starting school on your age on 9/1? Maybe LI should get with the times and stop bitching about the fall birthday kids in MD.

Not true if born after 12/6/2201 you are a legit 8th grader. Anyone born before that cut off date is a hold back

This isn't hard. The educational cut-off in New [lacrosse] State is 12/1. If you are born before that date you should be in 9th grade right now. And if you are in 9th grade you should be on the 2019 team, not 2020.

School year is Dec 1st
Thererfore a child born in Dec 2001 is completerly legit! Is for football & soccer too.

June 1 is not a cut off date. If he was born in June 2001 he is a 9th grader. Period. Keep trying to convice yourself otherwise so you can come to terms with little Johnny having to play down to compete.

Yeah and don't be misled into thinking only MD, etc. put holdbacks on their teams. Express, fl$, Legacy all have plenty of kids who should be in 9th grade right now. There is a reason the LI club owners aren't screaming about the unfairness of holdbacks: they don't have clean hands themselves.

First you need to define holdback. If it's someone repeating 8th grade, I believe Express and Legacy have one. Don't believe any on fl$.

If a kid is born before 12/01 he should be in 9th grade and playing on a 2019 team. I agree the major clubs have many older kids on their rosters. I disagree that only by repeating 8th grade is a kid considered a holdback.

If he's not a hold back, what is he? A weasel, a cheating loser, a mediocre kid trying a last ditch effort to use smoke and mirrors to look better than he really is? Whatever it is its pathetic!

It's safe to conclude that USL is a toothless organization with no true intention of addressing the holdback epidemic. Quite simply, anything they perceive to restrict the growth of the sport, will not be touched. Sad, but true. In the meantime, one thing that can be done, is for teams to list the birth month and year for their players. Obviously no names, just, for example: 2 boys 8/01, 4 boys 10/01, etc. Clearly there will be teams that are willing, though most probably not. But at least we can call them out on it.

Pretty funny how you guys spend hours agonizing about reclassed kids. Pretty sure your alma mater has reclassed kids on their football and basketball teams, and it didn't bother you then.

Keep crying. Meanwhile, our kids will keep committing to D1 programs. LOL.

Gotta be a crabs parent - because no one in their right mind could actually think holding kids back to gain an edge is good for this sport or any other. Meanwhile your teaching your kids to game the system because they weren't talented enough to compete against kids their own age.

The kids that reclassified at my alma mater are now in the NFL and NBA - your kids are working at lax world. Congratulations.

I'm not from Long Island but have met a number of parents and adults from Manhasset, they all seem to be much more normal than the rest of the long island parents/kids that we encounter when you come down to MD in the summer. Are we missing something?

Holding back for lacrosse don't get it, basketball/football absolutely and it is the norm.

DeMatha?

Thank you, and no, you are not missing something. We are generally good people who respect the game and our competition. The fact that we put a good product on the field garners a certain level of jealousy, which is frequently accompanied by negative commentary and accusations. Thank you for your kind words; an unfortunately rare occurrence on this site.

Only holds true for ny who still use 12/1 as a school cut off. The majority of states switched to 9/1 many years ago so fall birthdays elsewhere are not holdbacks and ny is noto the norm and can not expect policy to be set based on their dates. That is why aged based guidelines use 8/31 as a cut off. If you are going to play outside of your state you can not shout foul.

Sorry, buddy. My son is not a reclassed kid, nor are there any on his team. But we have a lot of big kids and we win, so we always get LI parents crying and mumbling after they lose to us.

Also:

1. Do you know how few college kids make it to the NBA or NFL? Those reclassed college kids at your alma mater are not playing professionally.

2. Love your carport.