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2 kids on this list played for madlax. The kid in the email and another that followed (for other reasons), a year or so later.

Who do you think runs West Coast Stars, a former Crab. Who do you think runs Texas? Who flew Ty out to Minnesota.

Let's not be naive to think a guy flies across the country on his own dime.

Football and basketball have multiple outlets for ranking comparison sake. Lacrosse has one, and for that Ty is a genius. Not hating just explaining to those 2020 parents from non-proffering clubs as to why their kids aren't going to be ranked in 2 years.

Cool thanks for the extra info. Can we find the oldest rankings list of any kind TY put out and see how well he did? I thought 3d website also did some form of Ranking lists?

So know looking back at the email. Maybe the Dad/kid who left Madlax left to go play with 5 or so other studs. That was the real reason for leaving. He just tried to use the yelling at my kid as a way out. Once again he just did not man up and tell the truth witch I am sure our crazy owner new.

Do Blackwolf's HS teams practice regularly? Or is it more of a model where they assemble an all-star team and they get together on Thursday and Friday before a tournament and do a practice or walkthough?

No criticism here. Just curious as a parent of a non-DMV player.

I think if you look closely at the 2017 Top 25 list you will see that Madlax did make the cut...

No, you are not correct. This list include 2 kids who used to play for Madlax. The rest either have been with VLC for years or joined VLC from a club other than Madlax.

But your general point is correct. Madlax loses a lot of players in HS. Either because they are fed up with him or the parents realize the cost is ridiculous.

The kid actually with VLC when it started and then went back to Madlax. Later on, he decided to go back to VLC. If the left because he wanted to play with some friends or he left because he wanted nothing more to do with the owner, does it really matter? Is he some kind of slave who is not allowed to decide what's best for him?

I guarantee VLC didn't threaten him when he first left VLC.

If you look at the commit counts and the ranked player counts coming from a very consolidated list of club programs, lacrosse recruiting looks absurd. There are good club teams that have 15-20 kids headed to Division one teams a year meaning they are populating nearly two entire division one programs as a club. VLC, Blackwolf, Madlax, Crabs, FCA. All have some good high school teams, but the notion that any of them have one team that "should" be placing more than 4 or 5 to high level division one programs seems like the greatest story ever sold. I would wage that there are public high school kids in both Loudon, Fairfax, Arlington, Montgomery counties that are equal to better recruits who just don't pay club freight to play on a club costing $2000, $4000 a year and then showcases, prospect days, etc etc. And fans of UNC and UVA wonder why those programs suck, and why Hopkins misses final fours for a decade. What's impressive about those Madlax BW and VLC lists posted here is how that got sold. I've seen the 2016 and 2017 teams at those three clubs many times. A few good players on each. Not 5, not 10 and certainly not 16. I guess that is the real edge for these clubs who are connected to sell recruits.

If you don't think any of those clubs have 5 or more good players on any of their teams, you are crazy.

Yes, maybe I am. BTW, did you play college and make All-American? Just me asking. I did. Maybe that makes me less the expert, which is fine. That's just my assessment. There are a lot of good players in those three programs in 2016 and 2017. More than 4 on any team I see any realistic chance of ever seeing the field? No. Club lacrosse has basically become a headhunting firm business getting these kids college jobs. I don't volunteer coach anymore for high school club teams. None of the players were interested in building skills, they and their parents just wanted to know if I could call coaches for them. 20 kids on every team think they're D1 in 9th grade. It's a joke.

Amen. As a parent on the sidelines at recruiting events I have personally seen my sons coach really "hyping " a particular player to a D1 program head coach and this player was good and a good athlete but not great and not better than several other kids on the team. It gave me a sick feeling. I actually wondered if money had changed hands. I know that sounds crazy. After the first half during which this "hyped" kid got a lot of playing time and essentially blew it, the coach walked over and said "well I guess my preview was a little off". I don't know whether the college coach was paying much attention to what the club coach was saying or not. I lost all respect for the club coach at that point. But this kid who is certainly good but not great ended up verbally committing to another D1 program within a couple of months. That is when I first realized that lacrosse recruiting is not necessarily based solely on merit. It will be interesting to see if this kid ends up actually playing for the program he committed to.

I have never been in involved in a sport (lacrosse) where everyone has such a expectation of being a college player. Overall a true lack of elite athletes playing the lacrosse game. For the most part they are good, but undersized athletes of upper middle class to wealthy kids excelling due to their parents means and lack of true athletic competition from the masses.

Ignorant

[quote=Anonymous]I have never been in involved in a sport (lacrosse) where everyone has such a expectation of being a college player. Overall a true lack of elite athletes playing the lacrosse game. For the most part they are good, but undersized athletes of upper middle class to wealthy kids excelling due to their parents means and lack of true athletic competition from the masses.

It sounds like you stopped following the sport in 1980, a lot has changed since then

Actually, that may be the best post yet in club lacrosse. Colleges that ignore the riff raff club guys and paid for ranking guys are cleaning up. Denver didn't even recruit the can't miss couple of kids from Colorado. Both are very highly ranked 2017 kids but neither of them would play at Denver. Most of the local 2016 and 2017 kids are about then same players they were as 16 year old freshmen. I guess you can also underwhelm for 6 months and miss the next 6 months with a wrecked knee and also be ranked which is pretty odd too.

Well I think there are more kids playing the game but overall still the same type of kid playing the game. If you look at a football field or a basketball court and compare its not even close. I will give you a increase of 15% better athletes compared to the 80'S.
But lacrosse is still what I would call a skill sport. If you put in the time with practice you can become an above avg player and not be a great athlete.

Being a top 10 tennis player means being able to afford going to a tennis academy and spending $100K a year on instruction and events. Being a top 10 at skiing is close to the same. There are alpine prep schools now. Ditto equestrian. Lacrosse isn't as hysterical in terms of those costs, but the PP is correct. The college rosters today are mostly clogged with wealthier class white kids who'd never be a collegiate athlete in a more widely competed sport. Look at the athletes in division 1 soccer, basketball, football, swimming, etc. Sports where you're not having kids smoked out of the sport for not being able to pay large amounts and sports that are competed in all 50 states by millions of kids. A division 1 athlete in those sports is just that. A division 1 lacrosse player is at least in part a kid whose parents were able to underwrite the privileged pass through all this club, prep school and showcase crap. I mean sure, these kids do practice up and get their passions pointed into a sport but let's not fail to acknowledge the reality. It's a sport parents and other enablers pay for and fix for kids who are enabled all the way through.

That would assume that what Ty Xanders says actually means anything, I wouldn't hang my hat on that.

You are partially correct and partially incorrect. Every competitive sport you mentioned - lacrosse, football, swimming, basketball, etc. - has kids who are getting seen because of the fact that their parents are able to afford recruiting and special training to give their child higher visibility, get them into a top D1 program, and possibly a professional career. There are also many more kids who are better football players, basketball players, swimmers, and likely lacrosse players who will NEVER be seen or recruited because they don't have the means or connections. The only certainly in athletics is that there is ALWAYS SOMEONE BETTER THAN YOU - no matter WHAT sport you play. If you believe anything otherwise, you're a fool. I can GUARANTEE you that if you take a top program D1 middie, he will run CIRCLES athletically around many D1 football players, quicker and faster on and off the field, with much more stamina. To call accomplished lacrosse players "non-athletes" is simply ignorant. Find me a football player or basketball player or swimmer that can get out on the field with Kyle Harrison/Paul Rabil/Greg Gurenlian/you fill in the blank and even run with them the whole game, let alone have the hand/eye quickness and coordination to pass, catch, and shoot a ball at 90 miles an hour with guys hammering you with sticks - there isn't one. Conversely, I'm betting that those guys could get out on the football field, basketball court, or in the pool and ball and swim with the best of them. They aren't athletes? You're absolutely insane.

I am guessing people are not talking about the top 10% of the D1 lacrosse players. But what we are saying is if you take the 125th player on a D1 team and put him up to a 2nd line Middie. of a D1 lacrosse team the football player would put him to shame.

I am guessing people are not talking about the top 10% of the D1 lacrosse players. But what we are saying is if you take the 125th player on a D1 team and put him up to a 2nd line Middie. of a D1 lacrosse team the football player would put him to shame. [/quote]

Huh?

I think what the prior poster wrote implied that there are some very elite athletes in all sports, lacrosse included. The difference would be the next tiers of players, the next decile through the last decile, you'd find that the last tiers of d1 football teams for example have great athletes. The next tiers of lacrosse, you'll find very average athletes whose parent's debit cards always worked to help pay the freight to get them there. If you took the third middie line at even a UVA or a UNC and put it against the third string or scout team of the football team at UVA and UNC, it would be an absolute joke and the football guys would mop the floor in any athletic measurement contest...combine drills, timed running over different distances, weights or body weight endurance tests, etc. And UVA and UNC have great lacrosse programs but lousy football programs. You'd still see a very stark difference. I'd agree with the concept completely having kids in different sports and having been a college athlete as well. In some of the prep school sports, you can easily get away with being skilled at the games but also be a mediocre athlete. It is silly to even debate that.

You are partially correct and partially incorrect. Every competitive sport you mentioned - lacrosse, football, swimming, basketball, etc. - has kids who are getting seen because of the fact that their parents are able to afford recruiting and special training to give their child higher visibility, get them into a top D1 program, and possibly a professional career. There are also many more kids who are better football players, basketball players, swimmers, and likely lacrosse players who will NEVER be seen or recruited because they don't have the means or connections. The only certainly in athletics is that there is ALWAYS SOMEONE BETTER THAN YOU - no matter WHAT sport you play. If you believe anything otherwise, you're a fool. I can GUARANTEE you that if you take a top program D1 middie, he will run CIRCLES athletically around many D1 football players, quicker and faster on and off the field, with much more stamina. To call accomplished lacrosse players "non-athletes" is simply ignorant. Find me a football player or basketball player or swimmer that can get out on the field with Kyle Harrison/Paul Rabil/Greg Gurenlian/you fill in the blank and even run with them the whole game, let alone have the hand/eye quickness and coordination to pass, catch, and shoot a ball at 90 miles an hour with guys hammering you with sticks - there isn't one. Conversely, I'm betting that those guys could get out on the football field, basketball court, or in the pool and ball and swim with the best of them. They aren't athletes? You're absolutely insane. [/quote]

Well, you're way off there. Elite basketball players don't pay for a thing down to their shoes if they are in the top groups and are going to the combine camps. And if they go to those things and can't hang on, the club coach and parent can't just sign them up or appoint them again -- they get dropped. Soccer is like that too. Swimming, well, there you are totally off. Our daughter swims for Nations Capital in the same training group pool as Katie Ledecky. Not in the same lane mind you. Swimming costs $1000-$1500 a year in club dues and yes there are expenses to go to nationals. The main difference between swimming and lacrosse is the #3 or #6 ranked lacrosse recruit is just an assigned rating. The #3 swimmer or the #6 swimmer is exactly that according to her times. You can't phony it up and get recruited by UVA in swimming: you have to be national or world class and to do that you have to go swim with sharks at nationals and make at least the top 16 semi finals competing against current collegiate athletes and post grad Olympians. Do you realize how insanely accomplished you'd need to be against more than a million kids in your grade, including internationals, to get recruited to Texas or Georgia or UVA to swim? It is so hard that the comparible would be one Baltimore Crab gets recruited to Hopkins every third year. That is how big the difference is in being good enough in lacrosse versus being good enough in a real deep diverse and hugely populated sport with zillions of great athletes.

Try telling me Michael Phelps and Katie Ledecky are not two of the 20 greatest athletes of all time, not just swimming, all sports all time. To compare what Paul Rabil did in lacrosse (one NCAA championship, a couple MLL ones, some MVPs) to what Phelps or Ledecky have done and you'd look like a total ignorant fool.

I think your notion that some D1 football players couldn't drop Kyle Harrison or Paul Rabil is a bit silly too. Those are two great lacrosse athletes, and a better way of putting your analogy is if you put Harrison and Rabil out there on UMD's practice field in football with the linebackers, MAYBE they'd hold on and hold together. Take any 10 random lacrosse players on UMD's lacrosse team today and do the same, put them on the UMD football practice field, I rather doubt you'd see more than 2 or 3 who didn't look ridiculously outclassed right away.

100% Correct!

The comparison to swimming is pretty amusing to me. I'm from Nowheresville, USA, but I have a bunch of friends who swam for high D-I schools and they hardly know what to make of all the lacrosse talk. "The clock don't lie" is what they like to say about youth sports politics. My daughter swam year-round for a few years for the top local club and I know the crowd.

Funny thing is that lots of parents in my area think their kids can play lax in college and almost none will. Meanwhile, the swim club gets a ton of their kids scholarships EVERY YEAR and they have a bunch coming up that will do even better (i.e., 14 year olds qualifying for Olympic trials).

I'm not sure the swimmers in my area started out as more "elite" athletes though. (And, yes, I've coached more than one kid in lax who set state swimming records.) They just put in a shocking amount of hours in the pool. Good for them and they like it.

Anyway, I'm not disagreeing with your point. I just happen to be one reader where my town is upside down. It's almost certain that I'll have coached more eventual high DI swimmers in U11 lacrosse than I will eventual high DI laxers.

Well, you're way off there. Elite basketball players don't pay for a thing down to their shoes if they are in the top groups and are going to the combine camps. And if they go to those things and can't hang on, the club coach and parent can't just sign them up or appoint them again -- they get dropped. Soccer is like that too. Swimming, well, there you are totally off. Our daughter swims for Nations Capital in the same training group pool as Katie Ledecky. Not in the same lane mind you. Swimming costs $1000-$1500 a year in club dues and yes there are expenses to go to nationals. The main difference between swimming and lacrosse is the #3 or #6 ranked lacrosse recruit is just an assigned rating. The #3 swimmer or the #6 swimmer is exactly that according to her times. You can't phony it up and get recruited by UVA in swimming: you have to be national or world class and to do that you have to go swim with sharks at nationals and make at least the top 16 semi finals competing against current collegiate athletes and post grad Olympians. Do you realize how insanely accomplished you'd need to be against more than a million kids in your grade, including internationals, to get recruited to Texas or Georgia or UVA to swim? It is so hard that the comparible would be one Baltimore Crab gets recruited to Hopkins every third year. That is how big the difference is in being good enough in lacrosse versus being good enough in a real deep diverse and hugely populated sport with zillions of great athletes.

Try telling me Michael Phelps and Katie Ledecky are not two of the 20 greatest athletes of all time, not just swimming, all sports all time. To compare what Paul Rabil did in lacrosse (one NCAA championship, a couple MLL ones, some MVPs) to what Phelps or Ledecky have done and you'd look like a total ignorant fool.

I think your notion that some D1 football players couldn't drop Kyle Harrison or Paul Rabil is a bit silly too. Those are two great lacrosse athletes, and a better way of putting your analogy is if you put Harrison and Rabil out there on UMD's practice field in football with the linebackers, MAYBE they'd hold on and hold together. Take any 10 random lacrosse players on UMD's lacrosse team today and do the same, put them on the UMD football practice field, I rather doubt you'd see more than 2 or 3 who didn't look ridiculously outclassed right away. [/quote]

You're clueless. No one said anything about "dropping" anyone - if you look at the 99th player on any worthy D1 football team, in most cases they are a 300+lb DT, and yes, I'm sure they could "drop" anyone who weighs 100+ lbs less - that is not what the initial discussion was about. It also was not about which football player could play better lacrosse or vice versa - that's apples and oranges.

Let's go through your post:

- what does the fact that elite basketball players not having to pay for anything do with them being great athletes? Or soccer? I know a LOT of parents who aspire to have their kids be D1 basketball, baseball, football, soccer, and swimming, and they pay a LOT of $$ for private schools, camps, clubs, and the like for their kids, who are good, not great, every year. And somehow they are able to have their kids there year after year, because they can afford it. The two are unrelated, though - they will never make it all the way.

- as for swimming, you're saying it costs money (shocker) and you can afford to pay it, and your daughter swimming with her apparently implies that she is a good swimmer also, which is great. Unfortunately, it's not all that exciting to watch, and while Michael Phelps and Katie Ledecky are certainly fantastic swimmers, I cannot speak to how they throw a football, pass a lacrosse ball, or dunk a basketball. My guess is though, probably not exceptionally well - again, you're comparing apples and oranges. I'm pretty positive that Michael Phelps could not sink a goal on Scotty Rodgers, though. but what I am telling you is, NO - Michael Phelps and Katie Ledecky are NOT two of the greatest athletes of all sports of all time, because they are SWIMMERS. Also, Paul Rabil is NOT one of the greatest athetes of ALL SPORTS OF ALL TIME, because he is a PROFESSIONAL LACROSSE PLAYER.

What I will say is that those D1 players train hard - REALLY HARD. Lacrosse is a game which requires incredible stamina, quickness, hand eye coordination, mental acuity, and IQ. Bottom line is, in football, if you're a lineman, you pretty much have one job. Yeah, you have to occasionally play both offense and defense, but generally one thing. Same with a kicker. in swimming, you swim. In soccer, you do need IQ and stamina and quickness. Same in basketball. The difference is, in lacrosse, EVERYONE on the field needs to be fast, be smart, be alert, be physical, be quick, have IQ, and EVERYONE TOUCHES THE BALL. You just simply cannot compare it to other sports - put it this way, every kid can (and does) play soccer, swim, shoot hoops, and play pickup football and baseball. EVERYONE CAN DO ALL OF THEM - maybe not at a D1 level, but they can - toss a soccer ball out, everyone can play a pickup game, even 3 year olds. My 5 year old jumps in a pool, she swims. Toss a lacrosse stick in your kid's hand, and tell them to run down the field, pass, catch, and shoot, good luck - trust me, I run clinics, so you can't argue with me, I know firsthand. Give credit where credit is due, lacrosse players are athletes. If you don't believe it, what the heck are you doing trolling a lax forum anyways??

Let's pull this thread - we'll take the Greg Gilmore, 99th player on LSU, who is a 6'4" 313 lb DT, and Matt Lane, a 2nd string, 6'7" 244 lb attack at Syracuse. Matt was a U.S. Lacrosse All-American, and he also played soccer and basketball, with back-to-back state titles and posted 52 career shutouts as the goalkeeper for the Montclair Kimberley soccer team. Oh, and he also scored more than 900 points and pulled down over 1,000 rebounds in his basketball career. Greg, on the other hand, well, he played football. Oh, and he also played football. Matt runs a 40 in 4.7 seconds, Greg in 4.9. Understand this - you can look at many/most of the top D1 lacrosse team rosters, and find similar stories - multi-sport athletes, excelling in all that they play, choosing lacrosse but also having other choices available. It's a foolish statement to say that "lacrosse players are just average athletes", and makes you sound ignorant. BTW - Syracuse Lax also has roster members who were all star swimmers, first team all-state football and all-America players, etc., and that's just one D1 club. Do your research before you speak...

What does all of these have to do with Madlax? Are they going to continue to cheat and have kids who play a grade down (not reclassed ones, one's who are actually in an older grade)?

One interesting fact is that there were players that showed up on multiple rosters with different placements - Madlax, VLC and Crabs. I think people took placements in order Crabs, VLC and Madlax. It will be interesting to see how the Madlax restructure develops.

I noticed that the Capital tournaments are not published as the Orange tournaments were in the past. I guess he has to evaluate what the level of talent is.

Well, you're way off there. Elite basketball players don't pay for a thing down to their shoes if they are in the top groups and are going to the combine camps. And if they go to those things and can't hang on, the club coach and parent can't just sign them up or appoint them again -- they get dropped. Soccer is like that too. Swimming, well, there you are totally off. Our daughter swims for Nations Capital in the same training group pool as Katie Ledecky. Not in the same lane mind you. Swimming costs $1000-$1500 a year in club dues and yes there are expenses to go to nationals. The main difference between swimming and lacrosse is the #3 or #6 ranked lacrosse recruit is just an assigned rating. The #3 swimmer or the #6 swimmer is exactly that according to her times. You can't phony it up and get recruited by UVA in swimming: you have to be national or world class and to do that you have to go swim with sharks at nationals and make at least the top 16 semi finals competing against current collegiate athletes and post grad Olympians. Do you realize how insanely accomplished you'd need to be against more than a million kids in your grade, including internationals, to get recruited to Texas or Georgia or UVA to swim? It is so hard that the comparible would be one Baltimore Crab gets recruited to Hopkins every third year. That is how big the difference is in being good enough in lacrosse versus being good enough in a real deep diverse and hugely populated sport with zillions of great athletes.

Try telling me Michael Phelps and Katie Ledecky are not two of the 20 greatest athletes of all time, not just swimming, all sports all time. To compare what Paul Rabil did in lacrosse (one NCAA championship, a couple MLL ones, some MVPs) to what Phelps or Ledecky have done and you'd look like a total ignorant fool.

I think your notion that some D1 football players couldn't drop Kyle Harrison or Paul Rabil is a bit silly too. Those are two great lacrosse athletes, and a better way of putting your analogy is if you put Harrison and Rabil out there on UMD's practice field in football with the linebackers, MAYBE they'd hold on and hold together. Take any 10 random lacrosse players on UMD's lacrosse team today and do the same, put them on the UMD football practice field, I rather doubt you'd see more than 2 or 3 who didn't look ridiculously outclassed right away. [/quote]

Interesting discussion. Could part of the issue be with relative size of D1 lax players vs. D1 football players? What mean is, you can be a great athlete with the speed and hand-eye coordination and IQ but just not have the size you need to play D1 football so you play D1 lacrosse instead? Isn't one of the reasons people think lacrosse is an inferior sport is that the kids who succeed in it are not necessarily the biggest athletes? Or am I off base?

Somebody actually scoured rosters of lacrosse teams and found one kid at Syracuse who is large in stature and played other sports at a high level. M'kay. I did look at Duke, UVA and UNC rosters for multi sport wonders and saw a few kids who were recruited athletes in other sports (Fersen and French at UVA are the two at UVA). The rest looked like as predicted. Lots of kids who had some varsity letters in some things but were mostly just lacrosse players, who also happen to be nearly all white from prep schools. The bar isn't very high to light it up as a football player at Potomac School bud.

I see what you did to also scour for one college football player who is a down lineman. Stay on the grid here. Name one UMD or UVA or UNC football linebacker, defensive back, or offensive skill player or end who doesn't run like a deer and isn't the one who has those gifts that one Syracuse lacrosse player and perhaps 2-3 total UVA ones do.

BTW, yes, catching and throwing a ball into a crosse is easier than hitting a 95 mph fastball or a 75 mph curveball, it is easier than swimming underwater for 15 meters, it is easier than controlling a hockey puck at high speeds while skating 25mph, and it is a lot easier than catching a football over the middle with 250 pound guys who can run a 4.4 three steps away from driving you into next week. Catching and throwing a lacrosse ball is easier than all of those things, and hitting basically does not exist in lacrosse today. In terms of skill, lacrosse is closest to tennis or squash given the size of the instrument used to control play versus the size of the ball. And something tells me you don't think Serena Williams is a better athlete than some D1 lacrosse player or Paul Rabil even, which is also stupid. Serena Williams is one of the 20 greatest athletes of all time in any sport as well.

I get it you think Michael Phelps isn't one of the 20 greatest athletes of all time in all sports. That pretty much speaks to how little you get out of the lacrosse globe to see what else there is. You make is sound like some schmoe from Bullis or PVI who is a Ty Xanders ranked recruit is a real deal athlete, and frankly that is a joke in of itself.

So off topic, but I'll bite - first question, why are you on a lacrosse forum if you don't consider lacrosse an athletic sport? Second, clearly you're not a lacrosse athlete - that's abundantly clear. And third, you're simply wrong - it's not easier than swimming, it's not easier than baseball, and it's not easier than football. It's also not comparable to tennis. It's simply different. What's easier, painting a Picasso, or composing a symphony? Neither - you're an idiot to try and compare them. Ty Xanders is an idiot, and his rankings are BS and a joke, but that's not the discussion here anyway - no one gives a crap about his rankings and if you do, you're a moron. The discussion point is that you and others are saying that D1 lacrosse athletes are not athletes at all, and frankly that makes you sound like the idiot. I'm sure that you'd claim that you'd happily stand there while any D1 attackman fires off a 100 mph shot at you in goal and not pee your Depends, but I think we all know that's not true. Change out of your cargoes and Reefs, jump on the lacrosse field, and run with the big dogs for a game and see how you do. And spare me the BS story that I know it coming claiming that "I was a starter at UMD so I know the sport" - you weren't, so don't even bother lying ;-)

Who really cares about swimming? So damn boring. Ty is a joke, and no one cares about PVI or Bullis either. But, lacrosse is intense and fun to watch, and no one goes to sleep watching it. No one cares about Phelps either - roll another blunt and go watch a rerun of the Olympics...

Posted this on another thread but maybe should go here: are there any other organizations with a little more credibility than Ty Xanders that do lacrosse player rankings?

Funny all of the sports and skill sets you mentioned are specific to a player or position on a team. Not all football players have to catch a ball, only a few ever do and some never touch it at all. Hitting a 95mph baseball is not the same as catching a lacrosse pass, more like trying to stop a 100mph shot. Catching a lacrosse pass should be compared to catching a baseball throw - most people can do that D1 or not. Not all swimmers hold their breath to swim 15 meters underwater either. Your post is one of extremes, but lacrosse is the only sport you mentioned where you need to run like a deer, catch a ball, hit someone, at all positions. You actually just proved the point that you were trying to refute.

Phelps actually played youth lax in baltimore.

No one scoured anything to find a down lineman - the PP had said that you can take the 125th player of a D1 football team and put him against a 2nd line D1 lacrosse player, the football player would put the lacrosse player to shame. That's what we did, using one of the best lacrosse and football teams in the nation, and clearly the PP was wrong. Simple facts.

I think the way to think about this is that the lacrosse and football teams at Ivy League schools are roughly equal in athleticism. Ivy League schools can compete with Ohio state and Notre Dame in lacrosse. They can't compete with Notre Dame or Ohio state in football.

I swam and played lacrosse for Pixley back in the day. We had a pretty good team, but I never reached my full potential because our pool was small and round and I was always chasing the Bradley Girls around.