BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums NORTHEAST LACROSSE BOTC MAIN FORUM (LI, CT, WC) Messages for US Lacrosse. Rules, Age Classification or etc.

Yellow card for a girl screaming "Got ball" so loud that you can hear it in the next county.

This is a critical issue for US Lacrosse to deal with. The advent of "grade based" rather than "age based" teams together with the rampant practice of "reclassifying" (in other words holding back kids) for the sole reason of getting an advantage of playing older, more physically mature (i.e. heavier and taller) against younger players has created an unsafe and absurd situation with 14 and in some cases 15 year olds playing against 12 year olds.

This is a critical issue for US Lacrosse to deal with. The advent of "grade based" rather than "age based" teams together with the rampant practice of "reclassifying" (in other words holding back kids) for the sole reason of getting an advantage of playing older, more physically mature (i.e. heavier and taller) against younger players has created an unsafe and absurd situation with 14 and in some cases 15 year olds playing against 12 year olds.

Your messages are being heard. Keep up the great work and continue to post your suggestions.

My vote is for the enforcement of the Dangerous Propelling on the girls side. Within the 8-meter arc, a girls' lacrosse player can't shoot without regard for the safety of the defenders. I can't tell you how many times I have seen a shooting space violation call in conjunction with an attacker shooting. In these instances, it should be called as offsetting violations and should result in a 50/50 toss. Enforce the rule or get rid of it.

They need age not grade classifications , why is appropriate to punish the kids who are age appropriate , is it fair that my 12 year old 7th grader is forced to play against teams that have mostly 14 year olds .

I agree 100 percent. 1000 percent actually. But let me ask you a question. Have you ever heard the phrase" beating a dead horse." This topic has been discussed thousands of times. Your 12 yr old son, is playing against 14 yr olds. Its sad, but nobody cares. It should be aged based. Making sports fair, is always in the best intetest of the kids and the sport. Age is fair. Your kid is having trouble in school, hold him back, do what's rite for your kid. However what does that have to do with lacrosse. Play your age. If my 14 yr old kid was dominating a 12 yr old kid. I'd actually feel guilty, like I was doing something wrong.

Travel lax controls the sport. Too much money at stake to implement change. This was broken a decade ago and it hasn't changed. If we were all running the sport maybe change would have a chance but we aren't

Lacrosse really does seem to be the only sport that supports this practice. How come the governing body, U.S. LAX, can't enforce any guidelines?

I think we all should just inundate US LAX email with this concern, maybe even take a day where we all decide to call at various different times of the day!

Because travel lax has never been bigger, so US Lax caters to the clubs and not the individuals. They could have to player cards years ago but didn't. The clubs just want to win and place kids in college so they are the biggest rule benders because it suits their FOR PROFIT business model. Bet your house that none of this changes - BUT MANY ARE REALLY GOOD IDEAS being shared by people who love and know the sport.

I'll take your bet. Please message your address so I can see if it's worth it.

US Lacrosse has been working on the right way to roll out an effective program of age verification for several years. They do in fact listen to the feedback we give.
As you can imagine there are security issues involved with documentation that parents will be required to submit and they have solved that. The software is in place and pilot programs are rolling out in the fall.

Your comment stating that US Lacrosse caters to the clubs because of money couldn't be further from accurate. They are committed to making necessary changes as times change while keeping the tradition of the game in place. It's no small task. Just look at your child's teams that have 22 players and witness the arguments and disagreements that take place within that small sphere. Imagine trying to properly guide the entire lacrosse playing world?

Give your feedback with issues and changes you think would be beneficial to our game.

i am happy that my youngest is going to be out of lacrosse by the time US Lacrosse ruins the summer travel circuit by going to age based instead of the correct and working grade based system. My son is a 2018 born in 2000 (age appropriate) and I want him to play against other kids in his grade for recruiting purposes. Playing against kids his age but in the grade below him will not help him get recruited or become a better player. if it's not broke don't fix it and don't change the rules because of a bunch of whiners who's kids can't compete. IMHO going to an aged based system will hurt kids that are age appropriate because they will play against kids in the recruiting year below and not improve and not get recruited.

People may have different opinions or arguments on certain topics. That's the way it is. One topic that is always discussed is age requirement. Pick a date, which you already have, (sept 1). That's part 1. Part 2, try to enforce that date somehow, like the other sports. I just don't see what the argument is. If everyone is the same age (within a yr), it is a more fair playing field and safer. What could the argument be to that. Its a factual statement. You want to hold your kid back for academics, social skills, I'm all for it. That should have nothing to do with playing lacrosse. The tournaments will still make money. Who is going to pull a kid out of a sport, because they now have to play with kids there own age. Your son may now be an average player, instead of a standout agsinst younger kids. That's life.

Sorry, but that just made no sense whatsoever....

Lol. I have no idea what he is talking about.

Some kids start college at 20, some start at 18, in some cases 17. Do the math.that means some kids are 12, while other kids are 9 or 10. That's why age is the way to go. Seeing some of these youth tournaments, kids are double the size of other kids. Dont say some kids are big, some are little. I know that. The point is a huge majority aren't the same age. Also don't say college and hifh school kids play with older kids, I know that too. I'm talking about youth level. The guy talking about not getting recruited, or playing grade. I have no idea what he is saying. Every single youth sport has age, except this one. Is every other sport wrong.

Your kid and those of his talent level are welcome to play UP and garner advanced attention that way.
Playing age appropriate does not ruin summer lacrosse. Playing down does.
Also the system IS broken that's why the change is coming.

When do you think this change will happen.

There will be no prohibitions against kids playing up. If your kid is super elite he can play up if that is what you want from him.

The above quoted comment makes no sense. No matter what system is used, elite kids will get recruited. Are the coaches at Hopkins, Syracuse etc. blind and stupid?Please explain how a great player won't get recruited under an aged based system. These coaches are more than capable of watching a game with a roster list and noting which kids are 2018 and which kids are 2019. In fact, I would think age based games would be favored by the coaches. This will allow them to truly compare kids. Watching 14 year olds dominate 12 year olds just because their expected grad years are the same tells them little about the 14 year olds. It does not translate well to projecting the same kids when they are 20 vs 18, which is what the coaches should ultimately care about. But if they see a 14 year old dominate other 14 year olds, than they know with a much greater degree of certainty that said 14 year old is a D1 player. It doesn't matter much what grad year the kid is. If he projects as a D1 stud, offer him a position in whatever grad class he happens to be in.

The bottom line is that by going to an age based system, recruiting is IMPROVED for both the coaches AND the kids. Coaches can watch kids play against kids their own age, which is the best way to compare them, and therefore, project how they will perform when they are 18+. This is the best system for the kids for the same reason. A coach can go to a game and watch 14 year olds. They can then identify maybe 3 kids that they believe are sure bets to be good D1 players. They can then offer them. The fact that 2 will be offered in the 2018 entering class and one will be offered in the 2019 class is meaningless to them. The coaches are more than capable of managing multiple classes at once. They do it now.

Well said

Then what would keep a defender from constantly jumping into shooting space? Poor lazy defense would get rewarded over and over again! Every time a shot is about to be made the defender can just jump in the way and it would result in a 50 50. Please think it through before you make a silly suggestion. If you think that a girl can stop her shot when she's already started the motion as a defender jumps in front, you are seriously mistaken.

To use your words..."Please think it through before you make a silly post. "

It's really quite simple and is already a directive to officials. You ready? Here it is.
Officials are directed to ACTUALLY CALL SHOOTING SPACE WHEN IT HAPPENS....BEFORE THE SHOT TAKES PLACE.
If the "lazy" defense you described does what you said then there will be a ton of free positions...not a good defensive plan.

Also, shooters will need to NOT shoot when there is a player in the space. If they do in fact shoot during a shooting space situation then it is a foul on the shooter as well as it should be.

Why do you have an objection to and difficulty with calling this foul?

My difficulty with this rule is that the officials rarely call the foul early enough for the shooter to stop her shot. Many times it's not the official's fault as much as it is the fact that it is a "bang bang" play. Defender steps into shooting space as shooter is shooting. In my 3 years experience of coaching girl's lacrosse, over 95% of these fouls are called by the officials this way...simultaneously, while the shooter is shooting, with no chance of their stopping their shot. So although "The Rule" reads nice, it rarely occurs or is called in a fashion that the shooter can stop their shot. So the shot which resulted in a goal is disallowed and a free position is awarded (maybe awarded...if a foul is not called on a dangerous shot). If both fouls are called for a dangerous shot on the shooter and shooting space on the defender, correct me if i'm wrong, but a free position is NOT awarded...thus rewarding the defense. It is my opinion that if the shooter has no time to stop there shot because of the last second shooting space violation, that the shot should count. I understand the rule is for safety but, it only rewards the defense, even if a free position is awarded. A shot was going to be taken anyway. If the violation happens early and is called early I have no objection with calling a dangerous shot...it just rarely seems to happen that way.

I understand your position but disagree that it only rewards the defense.
I have seen many times when a goalie saves the initial shot only to have the shooter awarded another try with a free position. If the shooter scores she clearly gained an advantage.
It will take adjustments from officials and players if this rule is to be enforced as written. Hopefully it happens because too many defenders are being injured.

Wanna know why U S Lacross will never take the issue of SAFETY and proper age classification seriously. One of the members of the U.S. lacrosse sports science and safety committee ( a physician) has a "2019 Gilman" son that stands probably 6'2" and 200+ lbs. clearly a player that would be big for a sophomore instead of playing against 13 & 14 yr old incoming frosh.

They have people on that committee that will never give it any credence.

Instead of giving "little johnnie" steroids to make him a superior athlete, the better idea is to hold him back once (or TWICE) to be a superior athlete. That's fair! Right, Doc?

Since you feel you have information that may have some bearing on the committee chairs ability to act with the best interest of USL at heart I suggest you contact them directly.

Your efforts will be better served if you take this on and don't stop if you have proof of your accusations.
I am interested as well to see if you are right. If you are we have all been bamboozled and changes should be made.
Let us know how you do OK.

GIRLS YOUTH RULES

I have rising 9th and 7th grade girls and a 3-year daughter. I have helped coach them in various years starting when my oldest was in 2nd grade.

Girls are not getting enough touches and it is not a good game. I am in a non-hotbed area but girls lacrosse is very popular.

I think girls need to play on a small field and play no more than 9v9 (and I think 7v7 would be better) through U11. They need to get more touches to learn to play a passing game. Right now, even JV girls teams don't pass as well as U11 boys. I don't think it is because of the stick and skills - though that may be part of it - I think it is because they don't learn to pass because they can just run by girls and score.

I intend to do with this my 3 year old as she gets older regardless, but I'd love to see the girls game develop into a beautiful game before High School.

I think U.S. Lacrosse should move to a single-year age divisions, except when two-year divisions are necessary for numbers. For boys, however, I think the 9.1 cutoff should be moved to 8/1, as I think many if not most boys with August birthdays now start kindergarten along with younger kids.

I have been to many reputable Summer and Fall tournaments over the last several years. Only Hogan's and [lacrosse]'s actually follow age rules (and [lacrosse]'s moved from an 8/1 cutoff to 6/1, which I think is too early). I have seen 4th graders playing 7th graders. I see teams playing down time and time again.

I don't necessarily think single-year grade divisions are that bad, until you start seeing holdbacks, at least compared to two-year age divisions. Even before holdbacks, however, it is obvious how many older kids populate single-year grade teams. I would speculate it is common to have 4-8 kids on a single-year grade team that are older than U.S. Lacrosse's 9/1 cutoff. It makes competition largely about who's older versus who's more skilled. That's not good for the sport or safety.

A question for the HOP, GREAT THREAD, lots of GREAT IDEAS but after years and years and years of inaction by US lacrosse, why do you think now is the time that real change will be instituted. Do you have inside info? The things brought up in this thread have been going on forever and others have tried to implement change and it has always fallen on deaf ears.

I hope this time its different!

There is a reason soccer went to fewer players and smaller fields, it was to retain players because they were part of the game. Lacrosse kids quit in droves because many never touch the ball. Can't tell you how many times when we were in the 3 pass rule age that the goalie passed to one player, that player passed back to the goalie then the goalie returned to the passing player and that player ran from 1 cage to the other to shoot and score! That's lacrosee? Everyone else just stood around and watched. Every other healthy sport accepts that most kids wont play in college or get a scholarship. In Lax if you aren't playing year round for a full ride you are shunned

I assume you are exaggerating with your goalie example, but if that really happened it was the coach's fault for not stopping it. Usually, the goalie clear doesn't count as a pass and where passes are required, at least one has to be in the offensive end so this would never be allowed anyway.

This time is different. USL is actively addressing many of the issues discussed here.
Age verification for one will be rolled out with pilot programs this spring. Other changes are coming as well.
With decreasing growth numbers it's time.
I am involved with USL to answer your question and thank you for your input.

I hope that change is coming but I have a hard time thinking age verification is on its way anytime soon. Some of these teams are half holdbacks or are just flat out playing down. I would think there is going to be a lot of resistance. My other question is why wouldn't college coaches be pushing for this. How do you know what level a kid is really at when he could be playing kids a year or more younger.

I hope change is coming. It just makes youth lacrosse more legit. My son is 12 yrs old. When he plays a great game against 12 yr old kids, I tell him great job, I'm so happy for him. If he were to play a great game against 10, 11 yr olds, I'd say great job, but in the back of my head , I'd say he did it against younger kids, he should play great. It dosent have the same feeling. I'm sure thousands of people have examples like that.

Can is lax take insurance away from clubs, leagues, and tournaments that don't follow the guidelines?

My worry is that many of the tournaments are not USL sanctioned, so even if they apply guidelines, your bigger clubs, your business focused clubs, those that promote holdbacks or turn a blind eye, will just attend other tournaments, making USL tournaments somewhat shunned. It seems like this may divide the lax community even more. I think guidelines are needed, I just don't know if clubs will be able to avoid them with their own tournaments and creativity to continue to manipulate the system. I think if college recruiting showcases and events really forced kids into age appropriate play, you might see a change, but that doesn't seem to be coming down the pike any time soon. I do give credit to USL for stepping up and trying to implement change.

Kind of off topib but, What is gonna happen when early committs dont either get the grades and/or the SAT scores needed to get thru the admissions processes...I am not talking,by a point or 2,but a vast difference...Any Thoughts?

I'm wondering that since this will roll out in the spring (2016), how will it affect all the travel teams next summer? Tryouts for Summer 2016 begin a month from now under the current 'grade' trend.

Next summer will be a mess with even more complaints and could snuff out the efforts, giving the illusion of a failed system.

Is the implementation then technically two seasons out?...since the tryouts next summer (2016) will only get the system on track for the spring of 2017?

Any youth league that has a mandatory pass rule needs to require that the passes occur in the box, and that the passes, in the judgment of the referee, are productive lacrosse passes and not just 2 foot passes to just satisfy the rule. I have never seen this done in practice, but this is how I would do it if I were in charge.

Another rule I would like to see at the youth level that I have never actually seen is a rule that limits the amount of goals that a player can score per game. Another rule that I have seen in other sports is that if your team wins by a certain inflated score, the win does not count.

Yet another possible rule - again one I have never actually seen - is to have a one-dodge rule at the lowest youth levels. This would mean that a kid can dodge one opponent, but then must give up the ball with a pass or shot. He can not dodge the second kid. Maybe this rule should be limited to the offensive half, permitting kids to clear the ball with legs. Again, these rules have, to my knowledge, never been used. They are just things I have dreamed up while watching games.

Keep in mind that I am referring to town teams and leagues, where growth is needed. Leagues where any kid with a pulse gets to play. Other sports modify their rules significantly at the youth level - baseball, football, and basketball do. Lacrosse needs to do so as well. These other sports, mostly baseball and basketball, modify less when travel teams are playing where the skill level is higher.

But with lacrosse, at the town level, 2/3/4 graders are mostly playing on the same size field as older kids, with the same rules. The only exception may be the lack of man down situations (which doesn't affect game play), and more conservative whistles with regard to hitting, which affects safety but not necessarily game play. There seems to be no modification of rules that permits more kids to be meaningfully involved, and for the game to flow better and be more balanced.

A lot has to do with the coaching also. My son has been blessed to be on a Town team where the coach has stressed passing since the kids first put on pads. They now pass to a fault and pass circles around other teams. All kids get touches and they almost always win. They give up many goals by passing to less skilled kids (who drop the ball) and sometimes lose a game because of it. But the kids have been drilled since they started to pass the ball, and are reaping the benefits of it now. I have literally seen them get up something like 8-0 and have 8 different kids score - all organically, meaning the coach is not doing anything to manufacture this, other than run his program where passing is required.

By contrast, almost all of our opponents are coached by men who simply yell "go, go, go, go to the cage" whenever one of their athletic kids gets the ball, even if its on their defensive side. The parents do the same. And yes, these kids score goals, and sometimes enough to beat us (although rare), but our kids are having more fun overall, and will be better players as they get older. Its a self-fulfilling philosophy used by these coaches. They don't emphasize passing so they never get good at it, which forces them to just have athletes run to the cage to score in order to stay in games, which thusly retards their growth at passing the ball, which then requires more one on one play to stay competitive, which leads to ... And these towns, which almost always have many times more kids available to them, wind up with less players enrolled than we have.

doesn't happen in MD, most of the commits are 20 years old since they did pre first and reclassed in 8th grade. they are more mature than most.